"Best" 5mm hex (allen) socket? (1 Viewer)

[CharlieS]

Does anyone have a favorite brand of 5mm hex socket to attack the KDSS shutter valve screws with? As with my last cruiser, I got one loose and the other is refusing to budge. I've wire brushed, cleaned with picks, tapped with a hammer, used both PB Blaster and Kroil. So far, I've broken one and twisted two sockets (stopped before they snapped), and now need to resupply. Snap On seems like a good brand, but I'll be darned if I can find a way to get ahold of the local franchisee.

I thought an impact work better (with a ratchet). Nope.

 

[sdnative]

Would a 3/8" drive impact with a 6 point socket damage the KDSS valve assembly? Seems like if you are breaking or twisting sockets you may want to try another approach.

 

[nwfl4runner]

Try ordering from Snap On online - super fast shipping. Where I got mine

 

[KLF]

Whoa, I would be very concerned if an impact broke it free, that it would quickly spin it past the maximum 3 turns, and you'd find yourself with a face full of very expensive hydraulic fluid, at very high pressure.

Just a thought.

 

[CharlieS]

Whoa, I would be very concerned if an impact broke it free, that it would quickly spin it past the maximum 3 turns, and you'd find yourself with a face full of very expensive hydraulic fluid, at very high pressure.

Just a thought.

Agree, that is why I used the impact socket with a regular ratchet. It would be too easy for an impact gun to spin the screw more than three turns.

 

[CharlieS]

Would a 3/8" drive impact with a 6 point socket damage the KDSS valve assembly? Seems like if you are breaking or twisting sockets you may want to try another approach.

I'm open to new ideas. Last time I had to have a nut welded on, but that one was in much worse condition.

 

[CharlieS]

Last vehicle I tried an impact screwdriver (the hit it with a hammer type), so I may give that a shot here too. I don't recall it working very well. In fact, that may have been when I got the end to break off in the screw and prevent further attempts...

 

[sdnative]

Whoa, I would be very concerned if an impact broke it free, that it would quickly spin it past the maximum 3 turns, and you'd find yourself with a face full of very expensive hydraulic fluid, at very high pressure.

Just a thought.

Very good point. Maybe not a good idea.

 

[NoClue]

Snap-on, totally worth it

 

[sdnative]

Would a 3/8" drive impact with a 6 point socket

Sorry for some reason I thought you had the updated design with the bolt head and not the older hex screw.

What about heating the body area around the screw and freezing the screw itself? We used to do this to get seized port plugs out of engine blocks. I remember a cross section diagram of the KDSS valve assembly that someone recently posted (maybe @bloc ?) and there was an o-ring in there so not sure how much heat it could handle.

EDIT: found it

 

[Nola622]

For the same KDSS hex screw, I've used vintage higher quality individual sockets purchased form eBay for cheap. Vintage Snap-On FAM5 (twisted a little, probably too long - stubby works better I think). Also a vintage Lisle that worked very well (nice and stubby). And a Wilmar brand and a Proto brand that I haven't used much. All 3/8 drive I believe.

Heat is probably your best bet if you want to get it loose before you mangle the 5mm hex. An impact will destroy the 5mm hex if you try too many times. Then you can hammer in a 5.5mm hex and keep trying, but by that point you are probably better off having a muffler shop weld a nice big nut on it. The heat from the MIG welder is probably what does the trick to be honest.

 

[CharlieS]

I ordered a snap on from their web site and some replacement bits (at least they're serviceable!). Hopefully they get it to me reasonably soon.

I'll keep an eye out on eBay for some high quality vintage ones, to add to the collection. I wish I'd planned ahead.

I'm always nervous about heat causing damage, but having had one welded, it seems that they can take it. Heat/freeze cycles would probably make all the difference, but I am chicken to try it. That may be where I have to go next. @sdnative - What did you use for the freeze part of the cycle - canned air?

I think it was the '18 that they switched over to the external hex bolt head style. Unfortunately, I'm working on a '16 with the internal hex/allen head (maybe my least favorite part of the pre-2018 200 series design. Glad they finally addressed it. I wonder if they started painting the body of the kdss valve too? I can't believe they leave these in raw unprotected metal.).

 

[KLF]

Sounds like we need the Project Farm guy to do a test, like this one he just posted yesterday:

 

[sdnative]

I'm always nervous about heat causing damage, but having had one welded, it seems that they can take it. Heat/freeze cycles would probably make all the difference, but I am chicken to try it. That may be where I have to go next. @sdnative - What did you use for the freeze part of the cycle - canned air?

The plugs on the engine blocks were easily accessible on the stand so we just used ice water. For the KDSS you may be able to use canned air with the can inverted. Never tried it though as my KDSS screws are silky smooth

 

[bloc]

Glad they finally addressed it. I wonder if they started painting thee body of the kdss valve too? I can't believe they leave these in raw unprotected metal.).

No paint on the new parts. And I'm not sure the external hex is actually an upgrade. Left unprotected it'll simply rust away the entire hex, vs the internal getting stuck but mostly keeping it's shape. And if the owner applies protection probably either one will work fine. Though I guess a nub sticking out would make welding easier..

Also you won't catch me hammering in a 5.5.. the walls of that screw aren't super thick and if you expand them into the threads it'll make how stuck it is now look like child's play.

 

[Sandroad]

Even if this thread doesn't directly help the OP, I'm interested in updates on good tool options. Seems like the last few I've purchased have been shiny junk. Hopefully if a company makes a good allen wrench they do well with other tools.

 

[bloc]

We can discuss metallurgy a little too.

Possibly the reason the impact bit shown above twisted instead of snapping is while impact tools are usually made of high grade steel, it is often a more malleable variety and with different heat treating to resist failure from the nature of impact loading. Basically they are designed to be strong but give a little, instead of fail. Whereas non-impact tools made of tool steel will often be harder which can make them better at avoiding rounding.. the cost is when they are pushed too hard they just snap. Think of them as having the properties of glass.. very very hard, but they shatter instead of bend.

The bit I tried in the rusted up KDSS valve that I dissected didn't give any warning before it snapped. No clue what brand, but it wasn't impact grade.

Charlie you might try heating the bottom of the valve some then soaking it with PB blaster or similar. It hanging off the bottom while cooling may help it get drawn up into the threads more effectively.

 

[Tommy Dwyer]

When mine were sticky I soaked them twice a day for about a week with Kroil before trying them. Finally broke free. Patience.

 

[kcjaz]

We can discuss metallurgy a little too.

Possibly the reason the impact bit shown above twisted instead of snapping is while impact tools are usually made of high grade steel, it is often a more malleable variety and with different heat treating to resist failure from the nature of impact loading. Basically they are designed to be strong but give a little, instead of fail. Whereas non-impact tools made of tool steel will often be harder which can make them better at avoiding rounding.. the cost is when they are pushed too hard they just snap. Think of them as having the properties of glass.. very very hard, but they shatter instead of bend.

The bit I tried in the rusted up KDSS valve that I dissected didn't give any warning before it snapped. No clue what brand, but it wasn't impact grade.

Charlie you might try heating the bottom of the valve some then soaking it with PB blaster or similar. It hanging off the bottom while cooling may help it get drawn up into the threads more effectively.

You are exactly right regarding metallurgy. I used a regular socket adapter with my impact this weekend to just quickly drive a bolt back into its threaded hole not intending to drive it hard but also forgetting I had the impact set on its highest setting and snapped the adapter. There’s a reason you should never do that.

on my KDSS valves, my first attempt was with a long 5 mm bit on a socket and I twisted the bit. For the second attempt I used a short 5mm hex on a 1/2” drive extension and a 2.5 foot piece of pipe as a cheater on the ratchet handle. The cheater allowed me to increase torque very slowly and in a controlled manner until the valve broke loose. I got lucky but the the 1/2” extension was stronger than the long 5mm hex bit and gave me enough.

 

[CharlieS]

Tried some mild heat and dousing with kroil, but no joy yet. Back at it once the new bits arrive. I just used a butane torch to try to minimize the flame size and heat. Might step up to the mapp gas next. I just don't want to overdo it.