At What Point Does Being "Locked" Matter? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Evoking
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I posted up
but now i feel 
I posted up
but now i feel 
Box Rocket
SILVER Star
I hear and understand what Nay is saying but I don't agree with the approach. FWIW, I've been there and done that. Nay's description is eerily similar to what happened to me with my FJ40. I stopped keeping track of the money I had spent because it had gotten really depressing and much of it was undoing and redoing previous mods.
But the logic of having lockers be your first mod or the #1 priority is not logic that I agree with. I've seen way too many novice/beginner wheelers out there that buy a rig and feel like they need to be able to "compete" immediately with the more experienced drivers and built rigs. So, they buy a truck and spend loads of money on gears, lockers, bumpers, winches, fridges and everything else that they've seen on someone elses truck. In the end, they get in way over their heads on trails and have been learning to wheel with the crutch of all these mods that obviously help to get them through the trails but also get them into trouble. They don't learn the invaluable lessons learned by drivers who have learned to wheel without all of that stuff. They learn how to pick good lines, how to get through a trail without beating the crap out of their truck, how to still tread lightly even with a stock truck, how and when to crawl something and when to use a little momentum. I'll bet good money that if you put two people on the same trail, one that really learned how to drive, and the other who learned to drive a built truck, there will be a night and day difference between the skill of the two drivers......every single time. I've had the nearly stock truck, learned how to drive it. I've had the built truck and I fully acknowledge the benefits of lockers, gears etc. They make a huge difference. But having come from my very built FJ40 and wheeling it very hard (after wheeling it with minimal mods for several years) and now in my 80 that has always been lifted but has never had lockers until last spring, I wouldn't go back and change the experience of learning to control the truck properly without the mods.
So, after that long-winded bunch of nothing....the quick answer to the OP's question is (IMO) that if you can find a good condition truck WITH lockers, by all means get it! It will definitely be cheaper than adding them later and you have them when you want them and you can still learn to drive without them. But if you find the right truck and it doesn't have lockers, don't let it scare you away. You'll still have a blast with it and I promise that you'll show up on trails in a couple years and be embarrassing guys with more built trucks because you know how to drive your truck. Not trying to toot my own horn, but it's a nice feeling to be one of the only trucks to make an obstacle and you're the only one unlocked.
But the logic of having lockers be your first mod or the #1 priority is not logic that I agree with. I've seen way too many novice/beginner wheelers out there that buy a rig and feel like they need to be able to "compete" immediately with the more experienced drivers and built rigs. So, they buy a truck and spend loads of money on gears, lockers, bumpers, winches, fridges and everything else that they've seen on someone elses truck. In the end, they get in way over their heads on trails and have been learning to wheel with the crutch of all these mods that obviously help to get them through the trails but also get them into trouble. They don't learn the invaluable lessons learned by drivers who have learned to wheel without all of that stuff. They learn how to pick good lines, how to get through a trail without beating the crap out of their truck, how to still tread lightly even with a stock truck, how and when to crawl something and when to use a little momentum. I'll bet good money that if you put two people on the same trail, one that really learned how to drive, and the other who learned to drive a built truck, there will be a night and day difference between the skill of the two drivers......every single time. I've had the nearly stock truck, learned how to drive it. I've had the built truck and I fully acknowledge the benefits of lockers, gears etc. They make a huge difference. But having come from my very built FJ40 and wheeling it very hard (after wheeling it with minimal mods for several years) and now in my 80 that has always been lifted but has never had lockers until last spring, I wouldn't go back and change the experience of learning to control the truck properly without the mods.
So, after that long-winded bunch of nothing....the quick answer to the OP's question is (IMO) that if you can find a good condition truck WITH lockers, by all means get it! It will definitely be cheaper than adding them later and you have them when you want them and you can still learn to drive without them. But if you find the right truck and it doesn't have lockers, don't let it scare you away. You'll still have a blast with it and I promise that you'll show up on trails in a couple years and be embarrassing guys with more built trucks because you know how to drive your truck. Not trying to toot my own horn, but it's a nice feeling to be one of the only trucks to make an obstacle and you're the only one unlocked.
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1973Guppie
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knowing how to drive is 80% of the battle
lockers along with knowing how to drive, priceless......
in the end, it all depends on your needs, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got on, if you plan to wheel the truck (rubicon, dusy, moab, whatever) and are going to do some rockcrawling, then it may be worth it to wait.
if you are going to run fireroads, forget it, unlocked will be fine.
I'll say it again, it all depends on your personal needs.
I bought an 80 with lockers as I plan to build it as an all around 4x4 truck, I want it to be capable as possible, to me that means having lockers.
Noah
lockers along with knowing how to drive, priceless......
in the end, it all depends on your needs, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got on, if you plan to wheel the truck (rubicon, dusy, moab, whatever) and are going to do some rockcrawling, then it may be worth it to wait.
if you are going to run fireroads, forget it, unlocked will be fine.
I'll say it again, it all depends on your personal needs.
I bought an 80 with lockers as I plan to build it as an all around 4x4 truck, I want it to be capable as possible, to me that means having lockers.
Noah
I don't take it the wrong way. Most people have zero need for lockers. It's just fun to post to these threads, because they are fundamentally meaningless.
Show some scratches on that new bumper, this young 'un helped design it
10-4! Frankie's building it. He'll ship it in next week or two. FWIW He might as well have hit me with the shot 'cause I still don't believe it!
I got a truck w/ out lockers and have not had an issue yet. Sure, they would be nice to have and I will be adding air lockers to mine as soon as possible. I have dropped off in plenty of good mud holes and climbed some sloppy hills without lockers. Only once have I had to bow out from an obstacle because of not having lockers. Also, I wasn't worried about the factory lockers cause I knew I was going to want to add air lockers eventually anyway. For some reason I am not too comfortable submerging anything electric in water, call me crazy, plus I want to have the air compressor on board anyway.
A few people have mentioned only needing the lockers in sand or on snow/ice. I have a thought...why not get a nice truck and if it doesn't have lockers, then jsut add a detroit locker to the rear end? This would probably be the cheapest option and it would engage automatically during tire slippage. Just a thought. I got a buddy with a detroit locker on his FJ60 rear end and that thing is unstoppable!
A few people have mentioned only needing the lockers in sand or on snow/ice. I have a thought...why not get a nice truck and if it doesn't have lockers, then jsut add a detroit locker to the rear end? This would probably be the cheapest option and it would engage automatically during tire slippage. Just a thought. I got a buddy with a detroit locker on his FJ60 rear end and that thing is unstoppable!
the use of lockers is greatly under rated. the question of the use of lockers when i get really stuck is not entirly true. Lockers will help you get through and over obstales easier with less chance of damage to the 4wd and to the trackby providing positive traction to all wheels. Without lockers a 4wd is in theory only a 2 wheel drive.
If you were going to buy a Heep would you want the Rubicon or not?
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you prolly will so - here goes. Not all wheelers worship rock crawling. Did you hear what I said? There are other facets of off roading that don't include ripping your flares off, or cutting the heck out of both ends of your frame just for approach or departure angles, or running 37" tires and having to lift for tire clearance and change gears so you have enough power to climb a friggin' curb. Some do more "mild" mods and wheeling and have just as much fun or more than you do. Some of us actually enjoy wheeling by ourselves and save the winches and lockers to turn around when things get too dicey. You know, I'd be willing to say lockers can be addictive, a crutch so to speak, to keep you entertained, because you need the challenge of that trail that hasn't been conquered. Yeah, you've impressed all the noobies with how you got the off roading sport all figured out. But, you're boring the hell out of me. I've been wheeling off and on since about 1963. That's prolly before you were born. Yeah, I'm an old man by your standards, but I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that anybody that has 1/100knowledge about traction understands the advantage of selectable lockers. You"re in Colorado, and prolly have trails less than an hour's drive from you. Do you even know where Evoking lives. He may have several hours drive just to get out of the city.
I think Sandcruiser has good advice and I agree with his approach and counciling for the OP.
But, here's the big surprise, Nay. I agree with you about getting lockers on a vehicle, like the 80, that was designed with the factory dual selectable lockers. It's a damn shame that they didn't come standard and that, what is it - Only 7% have them? With the advantage that they give you, after owning an 80 without them, and having this forum to back you up with tech help, I'd be willing to make some concessions on the overall condition to get another 80 with factory lockers. But, it definitely would not hurt to do some learning on an 80 without, if you're just starting out.
Nay and I tend to have the same veiws on wheeling... We like the same terrian and we tend to build our trucks the same way. That being said, I also enjoy more expedition type wheeling and snow wheeling. I like teaching new wheelers. This is why I wheel an 80 and not a tubed out mini truck!
I realize that not everybody plays in the rocks. I'm sure that Nay knows that as well, however, that is the veiw that we are going to take because that is what we know the best. I will say that the snow here in OR is much nicer to go through with the lockers ready. It's cold hooking up a strap in snow! I think the point that Nay and I are trying to make is if you have the option, why not try to get them? EVERYBODY no matter what type of wheeling you do will benifit from the lockers at some point. Will you actually "need" them? Maybe not, but my 4Runner had a winch on it for years that I used twice. Ever. And that is playing in the rocks!
Okay, here's my point: It's better to have and not need than need and not have.
Oh, doing it over and over and spending a fortune is the best way to learn it. Lockers don't matter, you can add them over time. I know what I know about suspension design because I took a $20K on the job training out of my own wallet starting with getting really stock in a stock rig on highway tires in the snow on a "mountain" run and damaging a transfer case output shaft in the process. I have been through every stage of build you can do for a dual purpose rig except converting a daily driver into a buggy.
It is priceless experience, except that you can tally the damage and so can
But I have known exactly what I wanted to do with my 80 and have only had to do it once in basic design. I have exactly what I want. Except 37's
This is the second thread in a week that Nay has entertained while explaining.
I had a 40 that could rumble up a very steep and loose hill in 2WD with the rear locked that had no chance in 4WD. I sit up there looking at sometimes relatively large groups making runs at that hill like my cat that still has his claws looking at my wife's declawed cat below who just sits there and stares at him with envy.
Now I have an 80 and my priority was a straight FZJ with low miles and a maintenance history. I really, really regret not getting the lockers. After dropping massive $$$ on new birfs and long/shorts in the front, I don't even want to look at those things for a while and I don't have lockers. Plus I have 33s and here in Colorado I need a stiff tailwind to get up to 60 without a regear. I'm going to live with it for a while cuz hundred dollar bills are flying outta my wallet at a prodigious pace. But I really want a regear and lockers; bad.
That lifecycle Nay through is about it. The first time you see somebody traipsing through an obstacle will your candy-bottom is sitting there, you'll be shopping seconds after you get home. So getting it for pennies on the dollar versus building it at full price is a no-brainer.
If all things were equal, I don't think people really truly care how the thing is locked; at least I don't. It is just that you'll save yourself time, money, and aggravation.
I had a 40 that could rumble up a very steep and loose hill in 2WD with the rear locked that had no chance in 4WD. I sit up there looking at sometimes relatively large groups making runs at that hill like my cat that still has his claws looking at my wife's declawed cat below who just sits there and stares at him with envy.
Now I have an 80 and my priority was a straight FZJ with low miles and a maintenance history. I really, really regret not getting the lockers. After dropping massive $$$ on new birfs and long/shorts in the front, I don't even want to look at those things for a while and I don't have lockers. Plus I have 33s and here in Colorado I need a stiff tailwind to get up to 60 without a regear. I'm going to live with it for a while cuz hundred dollar bills are flying outta my wallet at a prodigious pace. But I really want a regear and lockers; bad.
That lifecycle Nay through is about it. The first time you see somebody traipsing through an obstacle will your candy-bottom is sitting there, you'll be shopping seconds after you get home. So getting it for pennies on the dollar versus building it at full price is a no-brainer.
If all things were equal, I don't think people really truly care how the thing is locked; at least I don't. It is just that you'll save yourself time, money, and aggravation.
I love that video...look at what somebody wrote in the Jeeps defence...
"Jeep is 4x4 you can see the drivers front spin. This is all rather pointless, the Grand Cherokee isnt even trail rated, it's worthless"
The cruiser isnt "trail rated" either
ON TOPIC: get lockers if you dont you WILL be sorry and always wish you had.
Here's YOUR ANSWER....
If your going to drive it on the street only...no lockers
If your going to drive it on the dirt....YES lockers
THE END
If your going to drive it on the street only...no lockers
If your going to drive it on the dirt....YES lockers
THE END
sandcruiser
....back in the saddle again....
I feel like I pissed on a hornet's nest.
Some folks have made great observations.
A locked rig is better than the same rig without lockers.
An unlocked 80 is a fine offroad vehicle for a very large percentage of users.
Can't we all just get along?
Nay: I really hope I make it to CO someday and that you are available for some trails and some beer. Or that you make a trip south with the same motives.
Same goes for the other posters.
To the OP- best of luck finding a locked vehicle. If you can't find one, get a great unlocked vehicle, you can add lockers for under $2,000 in the future.
Some folks have made great observations.
A locked rig is better than the same rig without lockers.
An unlocked 80 is a fine offroad vehicle for a very large percentage of users.
Can't we all just get along?
Nay: I really hope I make it to CO someday and that you are available for some trails and some beer. Or that you make a trip south with the same motives.
Same goes for the other posters.
To the OP- best of luck finding a locked vehicle. If you can't find one, get a great unlocked vehicle, you can add lockers for under $2,000 in the future.
I have a '92. No lockers.
For less than $300 I put an Aussie locker in the rear. Took less than an hour to install. It's bulletproof. And I never have to worry about it. Plus the OE rear locker is a PITA if you break an axle shaft.
For the front I'm doing the same, but putting on locking hubs so I don't fubar anything. No streetable AWD, but it's cheap and bulletproof. Plus I want a split case I can put a doubler on anyway. One day I plan to convert an E-locker front diff to a cable locking one, but on my budget now I can't afford that.
For less than $300 I put an Aussie locker in the rear. Took less than an hour to install. It's bulletproof. And I never have to worry about it. Plus the OE rear locker is a PITA if you break an axle shaft.
For the front I'm doing the same, but putting on locking hubs so I don't fubar anything. No streetable AWD, but it's cheap and bulletproof. Plus I want a split case I can put a doubler on anyway. One day I plan to convert an E-locker front diff to a cable locking one, but on my budget now I can't afford that.
Hey Trio, I get your arguement. My 80 is the first rig I've owned with a selectable locker. An automatic locker (like your Aussie) is great, but I don't think I would ever run one again after being spoiled with the eLocker. My one question was how is the rear axle a PITA when you break a shaft? When I broke mine last summer, all I did was lock the locker and pull the shaft out. The hardest part was pulling out the broken part from inside the housing. After that, I bolted the broken shaft back in and kept wheeling. I didn't even take the tire off! (Are you jealous of my full floater yet? 
)
To the OP: If you only do light wheeling and spend the majority of the time on pavement, really think before you put in an automatic locker. They do change the way the truck drives and you will know it's back there. That type of thing tends to bother most 80 owners... (Now, to get myself out of the pansy catagory: I used to daily drive a pickup with a welded rear end bias 36's.)
)To the OP: If you only do light wheeling and spend the majority of the time on pavement, really think before you put in an automatic locker. They do change the way the truck drives and you will know it's back there. That type of thing tends to bother most 80 owners... (Now, to get myself out of the pansy catagory: I used to daily drive a pickup with a welded rear end bias 36's.)
With the FF, isn't it something like the splines will twist and the broken shaft will get stuck in the locking collar or something and THEN it's a PITA. My SF wont break
In the 80, there really isn't anything but a click to let you know it's there on-road. It's so long and heavy with a good bit of that fat over the rear end that the locker never seems to bind up like it did on my friend's Mini.
I'm not thrilled about using an auto locker in the front, but it's a locker....and I don't want to put too much money into my factory axles.
In the 80, there really isn't anything but a click to let you know it's there on-road. It's so long and heavy with a good bit of that fat over the rear end that the locker never seems to bind up like it did on my friend's Mini.
I'm not thrilled about using an auto locker in the front, but it's a locker....and I don't want to put too much money into my factory axles.
Good answer. My truck is street driven only everyday, never needed to use my lockers. But I at least have them, and the way I look at it is they're better for the resale value of the truck.
Not to avoid your specific question of this thread but I'll tell you why I bought my locked 80;
I've been wheeling Toyota's since I was a teenager, and realized early on about loosing traction where the guy behind me made a certain section of trail with a locker, and I would have to back up and get speed to make it, (not safe or good for your truck). On my last truck, an 84 4runner, I put my first locker I ever had in the rear since I wanted to do Rubicon. I'll tell you I'm not the most aggressive wheeler but I never spun a tire and it got me through time and time again.
Again for me I bought an 80 because I am now married with a 2 year old and the 4runner was neither big enough nor safe enough for me. The 80 was an easy choice if I could find the elusive 'locked version.'
I did! Good luck!
I've been wheeling Toyota's since I was a teenager, and realized early on about loosing traction where the guy behind me made a certain section of trail with a locker, and I would have to back up and get speed to make it, (not safe or good for your truck). On my last truck, an 84 4runner, I put my first locker I ever had in the rear since I wanted to do Rubicon. I'll tell you I'm not the most aggressive wheeler but I never spun a tire and it got me through time and time again.
Again for me I bought an 80 because I am now married with a 2 year old and the 4runner was neither big enough nor safe enough for me. The 80 was an easy choice if I could find the elusive 'locked version.'
I did! Good luck!
jfz80
Cruisin’
i think alky is referring to step 10 or 11 of nay's progression of a wheeler: factory locked edition
10) buy 37's to keep up w/ the minis and 40's on the trail and realize even Christo too suggests the factory e-locker is pushing its limits on strength w/ any tires 35 and above on obsticles requiring the lockers. This is the point where you realize being factory locked doesnt matter.
However having said this i too am running big tires on E-lockers and loving it. Lots of humor in this thread but some good points made too to make your own opinion from. They are incredibly capable rigs open, but locked brings a whole new dimension.
ok all the video evidence seems to have been erased from the interweb but here is s a description better than i could provide of what MIGHT happen if you do break an axle while locked w/ E-locker
"The rear design is flawed in that it has a locking collar that is outside of the PS side gear, and the locking mechanism is provided for in the spiders. This means that when things go wrong:
The DS drives force into the PS, twisting the splines outside the spider, inside the locking collar...aka "how things get stuck" and since there is no inspection plate the third can't be pulled unless you burn the collar off the shaft through the actuator hole, or cut the housing."
10) buy 37's to keep up w/ the minis and 40's on the trail and realize even Christo too suggests the factory e-locker is pushing its limits on strength w/ any tires 35 and above on obsticles requiring the lockers. This is the point where you realize being factory locked doesnt matter.
However having said this i too am running big tires on E-lockers and loving it. Lots of humor in this thread but some good points made too to make your own opinion from. They are incredibly capable rigs open, but locked brings a whole new dimension.
ok all the video evidence seems to have been erased from the interweb but here is s a description better than i could provide of what MIGHT happen if you do break an axle while locked w/ E-locker
"The rear design is flawed in that it has a locking collar that is outside of the PS side gear, and the locking mechanism is provided for in the spiders. This means that when things go wrong:
The DS drives force into the PS, twisting the splines outside the spider, inside the locking collar...aka "how things get stuck" and since there is no inspection plate the third can't be pulled unless you burn the collar off the shaft through the actuator hole, or cut the housing."
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