Good thought. If the rod isn't long enough it would take a couple pumps to build pressure, right.
Builds A New 55 Owner Intro (cgn1976 thread) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cgn1976
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- Thread starter
- #422
I have...probably 15 times. Lol. I'm pretty sure I have that dialed in at this point. Have had it too long (high hard pedal) and too short, multiple pumps of rhe pedal to get action...not like now where 2 pumps then it's good,.but 2 pumps to get it to grab everytime, so the pedal never firms up.
RUSH55
SILVER Star
Okay, so I’ve dealt with a situation similar to this twice.
This one however is even starting to irk me, so I can only praise you for your patience.
You say you initially bench bled the master before installation and/or prior to bleeding the rest of the system. If I’m taking your word that everything was carried out in a manner consistent with the proper procedure, then when you pulled the lines to bleed the master the second time, there should have been no air. You stated there was air in the master the second time you bled it, which tells me one of two things. You bled it incorrectly OR the lower seal in the master is allowing air into the system.
I really hate to have to make this suggestion, but I will say that if you decide to get brake fluid on your hands one more time and test bleed the master. If there is air in it again, and you’re certain you followed the procedure correctly, then all flags point to a bad master cylinder. I have seen it happen. Not on a TLC, but I have seen it happen.
IF there is no air in the master cylinder, then you have more air in the lower system. And IF you have no more air in the lines, then you have wheel cylinders out of adjustment.
IF all of these check out, then I’m at a loss and will be patiently awaiting to hear what the problem ends up being.
This one however is even starting to irk me, so I can only praise you for your patience.
You say you initially bench bled the master before installation and/or prior to bleeding the rest of the system. If I’m taking your word that everything was carried out in a manner consistent with the proper procedure, then when you pulled the lines to bleed the master the second time, there should have been no air. You stated there was air in the master the second time you bled it, which tells me one of two things. You bled it incorrectly OR the lower seal in the master is allowing air into the system.
I really hate to have to make this suggestion, but I will say that if you decide to get brake fluid on your hands one more time and test bleed the master. If there is air in it again, and you’re certain you followed the procedure correctly, then all flags point to a bad master cylinder. I have seen it happen. Not on a TLC, but I have seen it happen.
IF there is no air in the master cylinder, then you have more air in the lower system. And IF you have no more air in the lines, then you have wheel cylinders out of adjustment.
IF all of these check out, then I’m at a loss and will be patiently awaiting to hear what the problem ends up being.
Buy this and you'll make bleeding your brakes so much easier. No bench bleeding required. I've done dozens of masters and fluid changes with this. You'll save yourself hours of aggravation.
Motive power bleeder
Toyota adapter
Motive power bleeder
Toyota adapter
- Thread starter
- #426
OK Guys, Let me start by saying thanks again for all the time everyone is putting in to help me on this. I'd be lost without it. I've been looking to the general internet a bit too and am not finding much outside this forum! Rush, as far as if I'm doing the procedures right or not...well I hoenstly can't say for sure. I'm going off of videos and instruction manuals. This is the first time I've ever played with a brake system in my life! On the bench bleed I'm using one of those kits with the platic nipples that screw in where the output lines go and then have hoses that feed back to the reseviours. Both initially and yesterday, I used that and carefully pumped them until I saw no bubbles coming through and then pumped more for good measure. I then quickly moved the lines back on and tightened them up.
There were definetly bubbles coming out yetserday on the 2nd bench bleed so presumably I didn't do it right the first time or it's letting air in. I'll try the kit again today and see if air bubbles got in there since yesterday. Maybe do a gravity bleed after I see if there's air or not. At this point, what do I have to lose!!!! If there's air in it, I'll assume bad master and will order another one. If no air, I'll go back and redo the lines, since I will have opened them up.
Again, I'm a new guy to this so I could be not doing the bleed long enough and there could be air in the lines, although I'm being pretty careful about it. I have no frame of reference about how long this should be taking, but from what I've read, it could be 10 - 15 min per wheel. I'm getting no bubbles faster than that...more like 3-5 min, but I'm not totally dry anymore obviously. I'm doing the bottle with fluid in the bottom trick so you can bleed them alone. This prevents air from sucking backing into the lines when you pump and thus don't have to costantly open and close the nipple. I can sit on my knees and push the pedal and look under the truck and see the bottle at all four corners. I can clearly see No bubbles coming out. I'll then do another 10 pumps before closing the nipple at each corner. I have a bottle that refills the reseviours as I go, but I'm doing max 4 pumps then checking the reseviour level every time. I know for a fact I've never let the reseviours get low enought to suck air in. I've been super careful about that.
Lastly, as for the cylinder adjustment, becasue the pedeal would get harder as I drove it, I've been backing off the cylinders quite a bit from where they were intially adjusted. Is it enough that when I first get in I'm pumping the pedal twice just to get them, close to the drum so I can feel resitance at the pedal? Maybe. Totally possibble. I'm going to do all 4 corners cold adjustment this afternoon. So to be clear, dial them till they won't spin by hand, back off 5 clicks, then maybe 1 or 2 more (per the manual). It's OK to have a slight drag of the shoes, as in enough to hear it but not enough to feel any resistance? That's what I've gathered from everything in the manuals and online.
That 40 thread I posted yesterday mentioned his springs needing to be replaced. I didn't replace mine as they felt very strong and were in very good shape. Perhaps that's part of this situation? Not quick enough return of the shoes due to lack of force on the cylinders? I'm buying a new spring kit today too! All I know is that as it sits now, when I pump the pedal twice and get it firm, the brakes are absolutly great. Way better than they've ever been. pedal feels adujsted well. Strong. Then as time goes, the pedal gets a little firmer and higher and this increases the more I drive.
It all has me thinking I have more than one issue. I'll try the suggestions and report back. Not gonna lie, pretty defeating and frustrating. Amazing how one failed item can lead to a chain reaction of part replacement and issues!
There were definetly bubbles coming out yetserday on the 2nd bench bleed so presumably I didn't do it right the first time or it's letting air in. I'll try the kit again today and see if air bubbles got in there since yesterday. Maybe do a gravity bleed after I see if there's air or not. At this point, what do I have to lose!!!! If there's air in it, I'll assume bad master and will order another one. If no air, I'll go back and redo the lines, since I will have opened them up.
Again, I'm a new guy to this so I could be not doing the bleed long enough and there could be air in the lines, although I'm being pretty careful about it. I have no frame of reference about how long this should be taking, but from what I've read, it could be 10 - 15 min per wheel. I'm getting no bubbles faster than that...more like 3-5 min, but I'm not totally dry anymore obviously. I'm doing the bottle with fluid in the bottom trick so you can bleed them alone. This prevents air from sucking backing into the lines when you pump and thus don't have to costantly open and close the nipple. I can sit on my knees and push the pedal and look under the truck and see the bottle at all four corners. I can clearly see No bubbles coming out. I'll then do another 10 pumps before closing the nipple at each corner. I have a bottle that refills the reseviours as I go, but I'm doing max 4 pumps then checking the reseviour level every time. I know for a fact I've never let the reseviours get low enought to suck air in. I've been super careful about that.
Lastly, as for the cylinder adjustment, becasue the pedeal would get harder as I drove it, I've been backing off the cylinders quite a bit from where they were intially adjusted. Is it enough that when I first get in I'm pumping the pedal twice just to get them, close to the drum so I can feel resitance at the pedal? Maybe. Totally possibble. I'm going to do all 4 corners cold adjustment this afternoon. So to be clear, dial them till they won't spin by hand, back off 5 clicks, then maybe 1 or 2 more (per the manual). It's OK to have a slight drag of the shoes, as in enough to hear it but not enough to feel any resistance? That's what I've gathered from everything in the manuals and online.
That 40 thread I posted yesterday mentioned his springs needing to be replaced. I didn't replace mine as they felt very strong and were in very good shape. Perhaps that's part of this situation? Not quick enough return of the shoes due to lack of force on the cylinders? I'm buying a new spring kit today too! All I know is that as it sits now, when I pump the pedal twice and get it firm, the brakes are absolutly great. Way better than they've ever been. pedal feels adujsted well. Strong. Then as time goes, the pedal gets a little firmer and higher and this increases the more I drive.
It all has me thinking I have more than one issue. I'll try the suggestions and report back. Not gonna lie, pretty defeating and frustrating. Amazing how one failed item can lead to a chain reaction of part replacement and issues!
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RUSH55
SILVER Star
I have faith that you are carrying it out correctly
Your method for bleeding at the cylinders and calipers sounds good as long as the hose attached to the nipple is tight.
Your method for adjusting the cylinders sounds correct too, as long as you’re sure to adjust all four the same.
As for the question about springs, all they do is pull the shoes in tight to the cylinders and hold the shoes in place. Likely, you wouldn’t notice a spring problem unless there was some kind of continuous drag.
Anxious to hear the results of todays foray.
Are you sure your new master is for drum/drum brakes?
Sounds like you are pushing fluid backwards when it sits.
Sounds like you are pushing fluid backwards when it sits.
- Thread starter
- #429
Here's what I have in there although i'm pretty sure mine is an Aisin. It matched what came out, which I'm pretty sure was original. Looking at this on multiple sights, it says drum/drum
- Thread starter
- #430
You have more faith than I! hah!I have faith that you are carrying it out correctly
Your method for bleeding at the cylinders and calipers sounds good as long as the hose attached to the nipple is tight.
Your method for adjusting the cylinders sounds correct too, as long as you’re sure to adjust all four the same.
As for the question about springs, all they do is pull the shoes in tight to the cylinders and hold the shoes in place. Likely, you wouldn’t notice a spring problem unless there was some kind of continuous drag.
Anxious to hear the results of todays foray.
The way I read that is you’re not 100% sure what you have so let’s assume your issue is with the master until we can rule it out.
Based on the picture you posted I’ll assume you have clear reservoirs and can see the fluid level, pump your brakes until everything feels normal maybe even go for a short drive, then use a sharp pencil to mark the fluid level exactly on both reservoirs and leave it alone for several hours or overnight. When you recheck your level if it is above your lines then you are pushing fluid back into your master and no amount of bleeding will solve that and you will need to address that issue with some different parts.
If the level says the same but you need to re-pump up the brakes to get a firm pedal did the level drop after you pump the brakes back up? If it is dropping then we need to look for your leak.
- Thread starter
- #432
I do have that exact unit in the pictures, its for all drums. I'm very confident it being the wrong model is NOT my issue. I just wasn't sure the manufacturer of the new one. Aisin or Advios. Just confirmed Aisin. As for leaks, I have combed the lines and every connection multiple times. No leaks that I can find. Cleaned everything up and wiped it all down so I can see if anything gets wet. Not seeing anything on that front but I could be missing something for sure.
Brand new resevours with brand new clean fluid in both. I'll try the marking of the cylinder levels, although I have them right to the line on their at the top, so it's pretty easy to see if the fluid is dropping. It's not dropping that I can tell due to a leak, but I'll keep an eye out today.
I just went out and pumped the pedal, first time since yesterday. 1.5 pumps then solid pedal. As I did it, I watched the fluid levels and recorded a video of them. The front larger res. dropped for sure, the rear not so much.
Before I open the lines up again, I'm going to re-adjust all the cylinders, and see if that changes the pedal. I'm guessing it will. Then maybe extend the booster pin a litte more if the pedal is low. If that doesn't do it, going to check on the bench bleed again to see if it's leaked air in since yesterday. Hoping to do this by this evening.
RUSH55
SILVER Star
This is a 1976, correct? Thought that was the year they went to disc fronts? You don’t have discs in the front?
So you are 100% sure that you purchased a drum/drum master and you didn’t receive a disc/drum master?
Everything you are describing sounds like your front drums are pushing fluid back to the master.
- Thread starter
- #435
73, not 76. All drums. Here's the old, exactly the same (but with the reservoirs reversed), and here's the box for the new one. I really don't think the wrong part is the issue
- Thread starter
- #436
It looks physically different to me but looks alone won’t determine what’s going on inside, good luck I hope you get it figured out soon at start enjoying your pig.
RUSH55
SILVER Star
Okay, was confused for a minute..
I don't have drums on my pig so I am not familiar with them. Is the adjuster a dial you can move without taking the drum off? Is there a chance that it is leaking into the wheel cylinder and you haven't seen it?
- Thread starter
- #440
Me too J mack! All new cylinders so doubtful, but certainly possible MegaD. Was hoping to not have to pull the tires and drums off again, but will if this persists. I can adjust them from the back through the slot. Next step is to readjust those on all four corners, hoping my bench bleed yesterday fixed that portion of the issue and now I'm just out of adjustment. Gone through so many iterations of various adjustments on this, trying to get back to a baseline. After cylinder adjustment, maybe booster pin adjustment, and If that doesn't get rid of the soft initial pedal, gonna do a bench bleed again to see if it leaked air in since yesterday. If it did leak, new cylinder time....again. start over repeat? Just not seeing leaks anywhere on the lines so hoping that's not it....gotta actually work some today, but hoping to play later a bit.
If I can get the initial soft pedal sorted, then need to figure why it's getting harder as I drive it! Hopefully proper adjustment everywhere solves that!!
If I can get the initial soft pedal sorted, then need to figure why it's getting harder as I drive it! Hopefully proper adjustment everywhere solves that!!
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