Their radiators are also behind the drivers compartment so they have no choice to run elec fans.
Registry 8x Series V8 Swaps (26 Viewers)
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thatcabledude
GOLD Star
Also hauling ass!
I don't think there is anything in the rule book that states that the radiators have to be behind the driver. If they want to put the radiators in front and run mechanical fans then that's their choice. But I digress.
There is an ongoing debate on mechanical vs electric fans, which tends to get heated at times. I posted the video because I thought it was interesting, and was quite surprised at the amount of parisitic draw that occurs with the mechanical setup. My FJ62/Vortec has an engine driven fan and I've never had any cooling issues, but I'm going to try the E fan setup on my current FJ80/ Vortec build just for s***s and grins. I love to tinker with this kind of stuff, and if I can get it to work for my application then it's a win/win situation. If I can't get it to work then I'll yank it out, install the mechanical fan, and will be that much wiser for it. No big deal. BTW I don't plan on using my Cruiser as a 1 ton pickup.
@bloc, I'm really impressed with your build, especially since you are DIY. You too squad1!
Just another quick thought: I'm running a Gen lll 5.3, so a little bump in torque and HP would be nice. If I had a 6.0 then who cares, mechanical fan all the way!
bloc
SILVER Star
Edit: Little bit of tech.. one of my brand-new magnaflow metallic high-flow cats is already rattling. Pretty annoyed by that. I'm going to try denting the case to see whether it'll hold the core still.. not holding my breath.
Thanks man.. Nice to have some positive feedback, considering how burnt out I am on it now. Trying to get it wrapped up in the next week for a trip, otherwise I would have walked away from it for a while. Been taking every moment I have away from work lately..
My understanding was trophy truck radiator placement was strategic.. to avoid rock strikes, have relatively clean airflow, and allow a large surface area core which is more efficient. Getting that radiator into the front of the truck with how much room the front suspension eats up would be a huge challenge. I actually am a little surprised they don't run the fans hydraulically.. but then maybe they don't have enough pump capacity for it.
Still, yes, electric fans work for them. But, it seems to me that while they have a lot of horsepower available, they aren't using a large percentage of it a large percentage of the time. Accelerate, go fast, slow down. Accelerate, go fast, slow down. If they are seeing sustained high speeds, which is the most likely to need a lot of horsepower and therefore heat capacity for a long time, they probably have a LOT of ambient airflow through the radiator core independent of the fans. Very different usage than pulling 20k pounds up Vail pass in colorado at 40mph.
You are right though.. our trucks aren't one-ton and shouldn't be. This is a decision that each owner needs to educate themselves about and act on. While I'm sticking with mechanical, (unless I can't get it to work), my opinion is that electric would be easier, and probably good enough for how I'd use the truck.. fast and slow offroad, pulling passes, occasional towing, etc. But.. I know myself well enough to predict forgetting to turn the stupid fans off before a water crossing, or back on after.. and that alone is enough for me to run mechanical.
Mechanical fans also vary widely in how efficient they are. When I was doing research on the HD fan clutches one of the brands had three different classes of clutch that had a broad range of lock up percentage and free-spool percentage. Meaning the right clutch should disengage almost completely when not needed, and rob very little horsepower. The question then becomes can that clutch lock up enough to make the fan do the needed work when temps rise.. And this is why there are different clutches on 1500 vs 3500. The one-ton can accept a mileage penalty in exchange for being able to do five times the work.
To be clear about something else.. a large part of my reticence to run electric fans on a stock 1FZ is the lack of a good control system. The little thermostats that clip to the rad core just don't cut it for me. These LS and Vortec engines don't have that problem however. They have sophisticated ECM-controlled parameters and just work, as long as the fan has the capacity. HPTuners even gives you the option to tweak these settings. If I end up going electric I'll definitely post.. but at this point.. beating a dead horse for me to keep posting on the subject. Everyone knows where I stand..
Thanks man.. Nice to have some positive feedback, considering how burnt out I am on it now. Trying to get it wrapped up in the next week for a trip, otherwise I would have walked away from it for a while. Been taking every moment I have away from work lately..
My understanding was trophy truck radiator placement was strategic.. to avoid rock strikes, have relatively clean airflow, and allow a large surface area core which is more efficient. Getting that radiator into the front of the truck with how much room the front suspension eats up would be a huge challenge. I actually am a little surprised they don't run the fans hydraulically.. but then maybe they don't have enough pump capacity for it.
Still, yes, electric fans work for them. But, it seems to me that while they have a lot of horsepower available, they aren't using a large percentage of it a large percentage of the time. Accelerate, go fast, slow down. Accelerate, go fast, slow down. If they are seeing sustained high speeds, which is the most likely to need a lot of horsepower and therefore heat capacity for a long time, they probably have a LOT of ambient airflow through the radiator core independent of the fans. Very different usage than pulling 20k pounds up Vail pass in colorado at 40mph.
You are right though.. our trucks aren't one-ton and shouldn't be. This is a decision that each owner needs to educate themselves about and act on. While I'm sticking with mechanical, (unless I can't get it to work), my opinion is that electric would be easier, and probably good enough for how I'd use the truck.. fast and slow offroad, pulling passes, occasional towing, etc. But.. I know myself well enough to predict forgetting to turn the stupid fans off before a water crossing, or back on after.. and that alone is enough for me to run mechanical.
Mechanical fans also vary widely in how efficient they are. When I was doing research on the HD fan clutches one of the brands had three different classes of clutch that had a broad range of lock up percentage and free-spool percentage. Meaning the right clutch should disengage almost completely when not needed, and rob very little horsepower. The question then becomes can that clutch lock up enough to make the fan do the needed work when temps rise.. And this is why there are different clutches on 1500 vs 3500. The one-ton can accept a mileage penalty in exchange for being able to do five times the work.
To be clear about something else.. a large part of my reticence to run electric fans on a stock 1FZ is the lack of a good control system. The little thermostats that clip to the rad core just don't cut it for me. These LS and Vortec engines don't have that problem however. They have sophisticated ECM-controlled parameters and just work, as long as the fan has the capacity. HPTuners even gives you the option to tweak these settings. If I end up going electric I'll definitely post.. but at this point.. beating a dead horse for me to keep posting on the subject. Everyone knows where I stand..
I spoke to Ron Davis radiator at length before I decided to go mechanical. They told me I didn't have a choice with what I planned to do with my cruiser. I value their opinion. Everyone goes a different route with their build and I see no reason why you can't run a good electric fan or dual fan setup on an 80 if you plan on no towing or you don't drive drive in the summer a lot in the high elevation areas. I am running a 12" Spal w 1800 cfm in front of my AC condenser. This gives me the air flow I need and reduces the head pressure at the ac compressor which allows more freon in the system and cooler AC. By the way I don't use my cruiser as a 1 ton pick up either. The 1 ton is used for towing a 13,000 toy hauler. I tow a 2,500 pound military trailer and the 80 does just fine now that the LS motor and mechanical fan set up is in it. What I have works well for me. Those that go the electric route keep us posted after testing has been done.
Changing things up a bit...
I've been researching E-rod engines the past couple of days and have found that the 5.3L (ideal for 60/62/80 swaps due to GVWR requirements) is not currently available. That presents an issue for CO swaps, as the LC GVWR is 6470, which is too heavy for the available 6.2L engine (5725 or less). I would assume this is why Jonathan Ward was using the 5.3L almost exclusively.
Anyone know anything more about this?
EDIT: I did find a video where TLC did a corvette engine swap into a 97 FZJ. Perhaps GVWR isn't as big of a deal as I thought?
I've been researching E-rod engines the past couple of days and have found that the 5.3L (ideal for 60/62/80 swaps due to GVWR requirements) is not currently available. That presents an issue for CO swaps, as the LC GVWR is 6470, which is too heavy for the available 6.2L engine (5725 or less). I would assume this is why Jonathan Ward was using the 5.3L almost exclusively.
Anyone know anything more about this?
EDIT: I did find a video where TLC did a corvette engine swap into a 97 FZJ. Perhaps GVWR isn't as big of a deal as I thought?
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I see you are in Denver. Is Ward the guy at Slee off road? I was there last spring and they had some cool stuff going on.
Not sure if the GVWR is a Colorado emissions legality thing or not. I am running a 5.3L in mine. It came out of a 1500 GM truck which I'm sure was heavier than my cruiser and it has plenty of power
You in An emission-check county?
The Cadillac Escalade has a gross weight of 7,100 to 7,500#. THe Escalade uses a 6.2 liter L94 I believe. You don't have to have an EROD to pass emissions. The new GM motors are much friendlier to the environment than the old 4.5 inline. If you look at the emissions test number on the GM engines (NoX, CO, NMOG, and HCHO) they are lower than the Toyota. The only trouble you might have is the visual. The cats need to be in the exact factory location as they would be on the original vehicle such as the Escalade. Some require the cats to be factory GM others don't. It's different throughout the country and it seems unfair. In AZ it just depends on the individual that inspects the vehicle. Some don't ask questions and others ask a lot and want more info. There should be more consistency. If California allows the EROD LS3 to be in any vehicle why not the rest of the country. Seems crazy to me.
Ward is referring to Jonathan Ward of TLC.
Slee offroad is a pretty spectacular group of dudes. I don't know any of them personally, but they pump out some pretty high quality stuff. A good friend had his 40th 1F rebuilt by them. They are PROUD of their work and its a big reason I'm choosing to do the E-rod swap as opposed to a full rebuild. Granted, if I had a fully locked 40th with a supercharger, I'd probably be a purist about it.
The 5.3L E-rod has a GVWR of 7200 lbs. The 6.2L is listed as 5725 lbs.
http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/800/809/809-19257230.pdf - See here on 1st page.
I'm haven't put a call into Air Care to ask, but will be doing so this week. Will post findings.
bloc
SILVER Star
Then why not do a complete escalade retrofit into your truck? The 6.2 was available from 07 on and can be had cheaply. Rebuild the engine and transmission if you want new condition.. plus the lower compression allows RUG or mid-grade.. and the escalade definitely would fit the GVWR requirements while not being "heavy duty".
One other factor.. the EROD doesn't allow use of a BCM for cruise control/tutd/tow-haul/reverse lights. These would all need to be added as modules.. and some of them are quite pricey. TUTD direct to the transmission works but requires a corvette program, not truck/SUV. If you are getting a complete setup out of an escalade or denali (or any other truck/SUV for that matter) you can grab the BCM and have access to all of these things basically for free. Very easy to wire up (esp in the context of an engine swap). It has been done, though not documented well. I plan to fix that.
One other factor.. the EROD doesn't allow use of a BCM for cruise control/tutd/tow-haul/reverse lights. These would all need to be added as modules.. and some of them are quite pricey. TUTD direct to the transmission works but requires a corvette program, not truck/SUV. If you are getting a complete setup out of an escalade or denali (or any other truck/SUV for that matter) you can grab the BCM and have access to all of these things basically for free. Very easy to wire up (esp in the context of an engine swap). It has been done, though not documented well. I plan to fix that.
I have all the CARB data and forms that came with the EROD engine in front of me. I saw the GVWR ratings as well. I think the low GVWR is due to the fact that the EROD 6.2 was based on the the 2011 Camaro SS and Corvette. The 5.3 was used in the heavier Silverado trucks. Makes no sense to have a lower GVWR since the 6.2 makes more HP and more torque than the 5.3. The Escalade is an SUV and the Land Cruiser is an SUV. * To comply with the Emissions regs in most states you need to put a motor that was used in the same type of vehicle.
* I am not an expert and I am not familiar with all 50 states emission regs. This is from my research and is my opinion.
* I am not an expert and I am not familiar with all 50 states emission regs. This is from my research and is my opinion.
It should be standard across the US. CARB should be eliminated.
One other factor.. the EROD doesn't allow use of a BCM for cruise control/tutd/tow-haul/reverse lights. These would all need to be added as modules.. and some of them are quite pricey. TUTD direct to the transmission works but requires a corvette program, not truck/SUV. If you are getting a complete setup out of an escalade or denali (or any other truck/SUV for that matter) you can grab the BCM and have access to all of these things basically for free. Very easy to wire up (esp in the context of an engine swap). It has been done, though not documented well. I plan to fix that.[/QUOTE]
Good points. I am not using a BCM but my tuner did get his GM engineer buddy involved to make it all work together. I believe they had to get a VIN number from a vehicle that uses the 6.2 / 6L80E combo to get control.
Good points. I am not using a BCM but my tuner did get his GM engineer buddy involved to make it all work together. I believe they had to get a VIN number from a vehicle that uses the 6.2 / 6L80E combo to get control.
Before deciding on the E-rod for a swap, I was about to pull the trigger on a rebuilt 6.0L and 4L65E...problem is, these guys cant do custom tuning and will only build a stand alone harness that I'll then have to tear apart. I've just had enough of messing with tunes and wiring. I came from the Audi world and have built a number of vehicles that required weeks of tweaking. Just not my game anymore.
The E-rod is attractive because of it's simplicity. I'm not too concerned about not having gobs of torque on demand with the 6.2, really. I don't have anything to tow with my truck and don't really plan to. Perhaps a simple ATV trailer down the road for hunting, etc and would only need a 4 wire for that. If I decide to buy something where I'm going to need to use a 7 PIN, I'll cross that bridge.
Saving money has always been an attractive thing to me, but I think this time around I'm going to save myself a little chunk of an all-too-familiar headache.
Bloc,
Were you asking me why I didn't run an Escalade take out in my rig?
Were you asking me why I didn't run an Escalade take out in my rig?
The EROD LS3 6.2 is not the best motor choice for the 80 series in my opinion and I have one. Don't get me wrong I love it and it puts a smile on your face everytime you drive it. There are several reasons why I would go with some of the other options out there. I think I posted on this subject somewhere in this thread.
A few years ago, I had a 2009 DBW, 5.3L LY5 with 4L80E transmission swapped into my 97 LC. My first radiator and electric fan choices were failures. The LC would overheat while in 4 low during a long ascent. I changed my radiator to a Ron Davis with dual SPAL fans and have not been above 212 degrees since. My LC weighs about 7500 lbs fully loaded. I am a believer in the Ron Davis solution. I have not tried to tow anything off road yet and probably never will. I thought you'd like to hear about a positive electrical fan/radiator experience. I also added a 270 amp alternator.
Well done. I would have run a dual SPAL set up as well if I was not towing. Very nice setup.
