It’s well documented that there is no fuel gains going from full-time to part-time in a 80
Just saying
80 vs 100 series at altitude
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Just saying
I live in the Boulder CO area and I drive a 1996 FZJ80 (1FZFE) for my daily driver and family adventure wagon. We mountain bike, camp, and hike in the summers and ski in the winters. I bought the 80 because I used to have a Jeep TJ that I liked to drive on technical, rocky trails and I wanted the family wagon to be capable of pushing into harder jeep trails but still be totally comfortable for long highway miles fully loaded with kids, dog, and camping gear. The power in the mountains with stock gearing and stock tire size is... acceptable. It would be nice to have 10% lower gearing with the stock tire size for mountain driving and I definitely wouldn't put bigger tires on without re-gearing at this altitude.
As far as choosing between an 80 and 100, being a recovering rock-crawler I'm very partial to solid axles and front and rear locking differentials. A stock-height 80 with lockers front and rear and rock sliders will run 95% of the jeep trails in Colorado (if you're willing to put those sliders to heavy use) and with a 2-4" lift and bigger tires it will run 100% of the jeep trails.
A stock 100 series will handle better on the road, get better fuel economy, and probably require less maintenance (due to age and design. 80 series are designed to be highly serviceable but also designed to require service). Unless you solid axle swap a 100 it won't be a sleeper rock crawler like an 80 series.
I guess it really depends on your use case and your priorities, for me the 80 is a great multi-tool because of its ability to take abuse and push into some really hard trails with low risk of breakage. If you're doing mostly mountain-road driving (on pavement) and mild dirt roads a 100 will go everywhere with more power and comfort.
Ozarkmud mentioned a part-time conversion and I would strongly recommend against that for a Colorado truck. One of my favorite things about the 80 is the full-time AWD for driving on snowy Colorado mountain roads. Typical snow driving conditions commuting to the ski areas involve a lot of dry pavement at 50mph with occasional patches of ice and snow, and hitting those patches in 2wd can result in a spinout, but in AWD with the center diff open the truck tracks awesome over a slick patch at high speed. Part time conversions take away your ability to drive with an open center differential and really diminish your snow driving options (to rear wheel drive or center-diff-locked 4wd). I almost never need to lock the center diff in high-range in the snow.
Also 80’s are cooler and you’ll get more compliments at the gas pump (where you will spend most of your time).
As far as choosing between an 80 and 100, being a recovering rock-crawler I'm very partial to solid axles and front and rear locking differentials. A stock-height 80 with lockers front and rear and rock sliders will run 95% of the jeep trails in Colorado (if you're willing to put those sliders to heavy use) and with a 2-4" lift and bigger tires it will run 100% of the jeep trails.
A stock 100 series will handle better on the road, get better fuel economy, and probably require less maintenance (due to age and design. 80 series are designed to be highly serviceable but also designed to require service). Unless you solid axle swap a 100 it won't be a sleeper rock crawler like an 80 series.
I guess it really depends on your use case and your priorities, for me the 80 is a great multi-tool because of its ability to take abuse and push into some really hard trails with low risk of breakage. If you're doing mostly mountain-road driving (on pavement) and mild dirt roads a 100 will go everywhere with more power and comfort.
Ozarkmud mentioned a part-time conversion and I would strongly recommend against that for a Colorado truck. One of my favorite things about the 80 is the full-time AWD for driving on snowy Colorado mountain roads. Typical snow driving conditions commuting to the ski areas involve a lot of dry pavement at 50mph with occasional patches of ice and snow, and hitting those patches in 2wd can result in a spinout, but in AWD with the center diff open the truck tracks awesome over a slick patch at high speed. Part time conversions take away your ability to drive with an open center differential and really diminish your snow driving options (to rear wheel drive or center-diff-locked 4wd). I almost never need to lock the center diff in high-range in the snow.
Also 80’s are cooler and you’ll get more compliments at the gas pump (where you will spend most of your time).
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I thought that the part time mod was documented to improve mileage? It was supposed to be one of the only mods that would pay for itself. Maybe I'm mistaken. I also thought that you could do part time while retaining AWD.
I would only run RWD in the summer months (all 3~ of them, in the Colorado mountains). I haven't personally experienced AWD vs RWD with random slick spots, but it does seem possible it handles better. I know AWD is a lot nicer than 4WD in the snow. 4WD is fine, but you really notice it in turns.
Not to hijack the thread, but if a 3x locked stock 80 can do 95% of Colorado trails, what can you do just center locked? Just curious about your experience. I have a 3x locked and 1x locked (FJ80) but haven't had the opportunity to need lockers yet.
I would only run RWD in the summer months (all 3~ of them, in the Colorado mountains). I haven't personally experienced AWD vs RWD with random slick spots, but it does seem possible it handles better. I know AWD is a lot nicer than 4WD in the snow. 4WD is fine, but you really notice it in turns.
Not to hijack the thread, but if a 3x locked stock 80 can do 95% of Colorado trails, what can you do just center locked? Just curious about your experience. I have a 3x locked and 1x locked (FJ80) but haven't had the opportunity to need lockers yet.
Third gen 4 Runners pale in comparison to an 80 series. The front suspension on those 4 Runners are trash, you literally have to reinforce everything to make them a worthwhile off road rig. I speak from experience since I had a 98 4 Runner that was pretty modded out only to swap to a 96 LX450.
Problems on a 3rd gen 4runner front suspension:
Weak axles (prone to breaking and having the cv boots tear)
Lower ball joints prone to failure
Cracking spindles
Knocking the alignment out because of the cam tabs
Sure you can SAS and V8 swap a 3rd gen 4runner but sheesh.... talk about a lot of work. The 5VZ-FE in 3rd gens have about the same power as an 80 series.
If you need to drive the rig at elevation and have a solid axle there's really two different approaches. An engine swapped 80 series or a SAS 100 series if you're going to be doing some serious offroading. Personally I'm a big fan of solid axles even for more milder trails, the suspension set up is just far superior to any independent suspension. You could throw a turbo a 95-97 80 series though and run low boost. A VVTI 100 series is going to leave an 80 series in the dust.
From what it sounds like to me, a VVTI (later model) 100 series is a good choice.
Problems on a 3rd gen 4runner front suspension:
Weak axles (prone to breaking and having the cv boots tear)
Lower ball joints prone to failure
Cracking spindles
Knocking the alignment out because of the cam tabs
Sure you can SAS and V8 swap a 3rd gen 4runner but sheesh.... talk about a lot of work. The 5VZ-FE in 3rd gens have about the same power as an 80 series.
If you need to drive the rig at elevation and have a solid axle there's really two different approaches. An engine swapped 80 series or a SAS 100 series if you're going to be doing some serious offroading. Personally I'm a big fan of solid axles even for more milder trails, the suspension set up is just far superior to any independent suspension. You could throw a turbo a 95-97 80 series though and run low boost. A VVTI 100 series is going to leave an 80 series in the dust.
From what it sounds like to me, a VVTI (later model) 100 series is a good choice.
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It can't. Stock 80 even triple locked suffers the same fate as any other stock vehicle with approach angles, ground clearance etc. Throw on some 35s, gears, bumpers and sliders and even a triple locked is only going to be able to do about 85-90% of the trails in Colorado. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasnt wheeled in penrose, montrose, carnage etc.
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I would look into a turbo kit from @NLXTACY at Wit's End that you could add to your 80 series. That should get you the extra juice you need in the mountains.
The part time mod converts the center diff lock mechanism and button to the RWD/4WD mechanism and button. You can't run an open center diff after a part time mod. Center diff button off = RWD, Center diff button locked = 4wd. I don't know if the mod will "pay for itself" but it's not like you're going to make an 80 fuel efficient and I love how well the AWD with open center diff works in mixed-traction scenarios both on dirt and on wet/icy/snowy pavement.
I have experienced RWD in other vehicles (pickup trucks, Jeeps and Suburbans) and AWD in a 2007 Range Rover and in my 80. AWD gives you the ability to stay on the gas and use the front wheels to pull the vehicle out of a spin, AWD is super predictable and easy to drive in mixed traction. In RWD/Selectable 4WD vehicles in Colorado winters I often find that I'm driving around in RWD until one moment when I wish I was locked into 4WD but then I'm not fast enough pulling the lever or hitting the button to make a difference in that situation. If I left it in 4WD more often I would probably have better results.
Front and rear lockers do a lot to compensate for limited clearance and limited suspension travel in a stock 80. If you look in the Colorado FunTreks off-road guide book (as an example for trail sampling and rating) you can run all of the green (easy) and blue (moderate) trails with just the center diff lock, but you can push into many (but not all) of the red (difficult) trails with a stock 80 with front and rear lockers. Also the lockers reduce the need to carry momentum through obstacles and reduce wheel spin which saves shock-load on parts and reduces the chance of breaking stuff or sliding off your line. I'm the type to hit my lockers early when I see a hard obstacle or a steep hill climb and not get stuck, then shut them off (especially the front off) once I'm through the hard bit so that steering is easy again. Some people like to try an obstacle open-open, then try it with one locker if they didn't make it, then try it with both lockers, to see what the rig does in every configuration. This is a fun exercise but I'm usually interested in covering more trail and spending less time playing on a single obstacle. It's all wheeling and it's all fun.
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Search around lots of threads on this, you're not getting a turbo from him anytime soon if at all
I'm sure you're right about the hard trails in penrose, montrose, carnage etc. I'm referring to the many miles of dirt fire roads, dirt mountain passes, shelf roads and old railroad grades that you probably don't even consider to be "trails" because most of them are passable in a Subaru and can be downright boring if you're out looking for technical wheeling. I'm using my 80 for family road trips and linking together a lot of the dirt exploration Colorado has to offer, and I'm avoiding the fun technical trails you're running in your rig. I don't really like family road-tripping in a built wheeling truck (not bashing it, I know many do) and a stock 80 can do a lot.
Joey always comes through. He is a one man show so you just have to give him some time. He's been hit with a bunch of problems (supply chain, hackers, health, etc).
There's really nothing special Joey has done in regards to a turbo kit. It was a nicely put together kit but I wouldn't want to be dealing with him given all the current issues.
It's not even like the kit was complete, you still had to take the downpipe and get it welded together. I'd buy an equivalent water cooled turbo with an internal waste gate, a j pipe, and piece together to the rest of the parts.
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Solid axle swap is pretty easy on a 3rd gen 4runner. It's a tacoma front end, so there are many solid axle kits available. They are also a way cheaper cost of entry compared to a 80, so you have more budget for mods. The ifs can also be upgraded to handle at least 37s. The ball joints aren't an issue until 175k miles or so. All ball joints eventually break if neglected. The cam tabs are easily beefed up with some little supports. While it has similar power to a 1fz, it's a lighter vehicle. The 5vzfe has a readily available supercharger as well. My supercharged 5vz 4runner was about as quick as my 5.3 in my 80. In addition the 3rd gen has extremely low transfercase gears available.
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There has been some great discussion here. I think I’m pretty much sold on the 80. Given that this is mainly an adventure rig and I have a fast/fun daily it seems to make more sense to prioritize robust capability over the other criteria. Sounds like the power isn’t great but liveable and I can deal with that.
There is a triple locked 80 series in my area that looks promising. I am planning to look at it Friday.
Re: the part time mod, a part of the appeal to me with the 80 is being able to run in AWD mode in the snow. IMO, it’s far better than driving with a locked center diff in potentially mixed traction. I have snow tires on my GR86 so I know you can do a lot with RWD, but it would be great to have high clearance AWD for mountain trips when the snow might be piling up too high for the 86 to pass through.
There is a triple locked 80 series in my area that looks promising. I am planning to look at it Friday.
Re: the part time mod, a part of the appeal to me with the 80 is being able to run in AWD mode in the snow. IMO, it’s far better than driving with a locked center diff in potentially mixed traction. I have snow tires on my GR86 so I know you can do a lot with RWD, but it would be great to have high clearance AWD for mountain trips when the snow might be piling up too high for the 86 to pass through.
I wouldn't consider a single solid axle swap to be pretty easy. Lots of people do swaps with terrible driveability. There's a big reason why SAS vehicles tend to have mediocre resell value. A solid axle swap is also likely going to be pretty pricey if you actually want to do a quality swap and not some wagooner leaf sprung low end swap. Can you do a nice swap with a 3 link or coil sprung suspension? Absolutely but at that point why bother? I think if we are talking about improving a platform the LS swap 80 series is the easiest vehicle out of the 3rd gen 4runner, 80 series, and 100 series platform to get dialed in right.
The IFS can be upgraded to handle 37s? Since when? They don't even really fit unless you cut the hell out of the truck. Some people must love carrying spare CV axles around or buying RCV performance axles in which you need to armor up the lower control arms, swap out to SPC upper arms, weld total choas/whatever cam tabs on, add 555 cam eliminator plates, weld on spindle gussets, shock tower gussets.... My head hurts remembering all that nonsense.
The interior build quality in an 80 is far superior as well.
Unless you want a buggy like build and you want to mash around on the most difficult trails just skip a 3rd gen and get an 80.
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You passed the test, 80 is the right choice
. I hope you find a good one and get out on the trails!
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This is the one I wheeled with in moab. It has chromoly cv axles and 37s. The 3rd gen 4runner was the last gen before they got away from the standard mini truck type size. Mini trucks and the smaller 4runners have just always been really impressive to me. Personally im not afraid of doing a solid axle swap. I dont think its a difficult mod, but thats just my opinion. 80 series front end has its limitations offroad with the radius arms. So a solid axle swap on a different platform would allow a great opportunity to go with something that can perform as good or better than radius arms. Colorado emission laws has made it much more difficult to do LS swaps on a 80 series or anything else. It's a lot like California now.
It’s incredibly easy and cheap to 3-link an 80.
I have a soft spot for the 3rd gen 4runners as well. I had one for 7 to 8 years. They just aren't a good platform starting out. If you're aiming to do a 3 link/4 link with a 2UZ swap, go for it. Otherwise I just don't think they are a good offroad platform since they don't do anything that well compared to a 4th gen/5th gen 4runner, 80 or 100 series landcruiser besides being a narrower vehicle. Under powered, weak front suspension, not very comfortable, and not cheap anymore.
At 2k for axles that's a LOT of coin! Plus you have to cut/weld the front and rear fenders/firewalls to actually get the proper clearance for the 37s to travel nevermind that it'll drive like a turd on the highway unless it is supercharged. Fitting 35s on an 80 is child's play compared to 35s on a 3rd gen 4 Runner. Still got those pesky weak tierods on the ring and pinion rack as well.
Just out of curiousity how many solid axle swaps have you done? I hope the answer isn't "zero". I would never say on any forum an engine swap or a SAS is easy, even just swapping in a factory engine (while incredibly easy to me) isn't something I would just label as "easy".
Turbo'ing or a 1FZ supercharger is a fairly simple solution to the only major hurdle of an 80 series.
Here was my 3rd gen.
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