6/'72 FJ55: stock drivetrain swap to '84 FJ60 drivetrain

[threadchaser]

Jim C. on 81-87 distributor governor pin bushing

Here are a bunch of Jim C. quotes gathered from around MUD, all pertaining to this missing bushing.

Jim C.:
The dizzys are all the same for 81-87 FJ40 & FJ60, USA-spec. Earlier dizzys have different curves because of the different cylinder head design.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=491544&postcount=2

Jim C.:
Yes, the stock curve is calibrated for EGR. Now that the EGR is gone, the cylinder pressure is much higher, so less advance is needed.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=492561&postcount=6

Jim C.:
The FJ60 distributors will run a long time. The only problems they develop is a leaky vac advancer and the aforementioned stop pin bushing.
The stop pin is down inside the distributor, under the breaker plate. It is supposed to have a plastic bushing around it. The governor (advance mechanism) slot rests against the stop pin at idle. As the revs increase, the governor moves off the pin until the other side of the slot contacts the pin, about 10.5 degrees later. The plastic bushing tends to crumble, exposing the much smaller steel core of the stop pin. Now the rest angle is much retarded, and the max governor angle is more advanced. This means the distributor which already had a greater than ideal advance curve has about 6 more degrees than stock.
You can see the stop pin without disassembling the dist. by looking through the inspection window in the breaker plate. Chances are it will be missing the plastic bushing, because 90% of them are after 10 years in service.
In summary, you'll know if the stop pin is a problem by either:
1. Visual inspection
2. Live testing w/ advance timing light
3. testing on the distributor machine.
-----
You'll know if the vac advancer is a problem by:
1. live testing w/ vac pump on engine
2. static testing w/ vac pump & visual inspection
-----
You'll know if the advance curve is mismatched to the engine's requirements:
1. by setting to the best performance at peak torque (1800-2200rpm) and then finding idle timing too advanced or retarded.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=492586&postcount=7

Jim C.:
The stop pin bushing is non-serviceable.
I fabricate them from brass tube, so as to avoid the disintegrating plastic problem in the future.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=500719&postcount=15

Jim C.:
The governor pin has to be big enough to limit total timing to what ever number you're shooting for.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=3852833&postcount=4

Jim C.:
[topic is a 79-80 USA type dissy]
Connect the carb ported vac fitting (low on VC side of carb) to the inner dissy fitting, which will give 20* of vac advance. That's a lot of advance, on top of the mechanical advance, but at your altitude and with an older low compression 2F, it should be about right.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=7529674&postcount=19

Jim C. and others, whole pinging thread is worth reading:
First, the engine is pinging because there is too much timing advance. The stock timing is 7*BTDC, w/ 21* of mechanical advance available for a total of 28*. The distributor that is currently in the truck has a disintegrated governor limit bushing, which allows too much timing advance & steepens (sp?) the advance curve. Additionally, the base timing is advanced 4*. The result is 11* plus 26*, a total 37*, or 9* more timing than stock which gives audible spark knock.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/636950-please-help-carb-secondary-still-not-opening.html

 

[threadchaser]

Distributor governor bushing sizing

So, if I am understanding this right the goal is to have 10.5 degrees of movement; I will take that "10.5" stamp as supporting evidence. The radius is about 24mm. 2PiR=C so C=150.796416mm. (C/360)*10.5=4.39822877mm

Point is this 1/4" O.D. "bushing" is just a wee bit too big, but I've hit the limits of my measuring tools. Time to buy some better calipers methinks.

I think I am going to run with this as is and see what things look like with the timing gun once the engine is working.

 

[FJ40Jim]

The goal is to have the optimum amount of advance. Unfortunately that number is fuzzy.

 

[threadchaser]

The goal is to have the optimum amount of advance. Unfortunately that number is fuzzy.

Well put.

I was starting to conclude that since this 2F has already been desmogged the goal posts have been moved. Maybe it is a good thing this 1/4" O.D. bushing I am using has a diameter slightly larger than what I think stock was. Good enough to start with is my conclusion; tweaking will proceed only after the engine is running.

 

[threadchaser]

10/83 distributor ID markings

The vacuum advancer is hard to read due to corrosion: 029450-4510

 

[threadchaser]

Breaker plate component

46 ball bearings.

 

[scrapdaddy]

That's the way to do it.

 

[PabloCruise]

46 ball bearings.

Sweet pictures!

 

[threadchaser]

The FSM does not say anything about lubing the guts of the distributor during assembly. There was degraded grease on the breaker plate ball bearings and governor weigh pin holes as well as under the governor weights. Who knows who put that grease there, factory or later...

I decided to use Super Lube Synthetic Grease in the same places. This grease has a NLGI consistency number of 2. I found this handy chart for getting an idea of what the various NLGI consistency numbers mean.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1352/grease-basics

 

[threadchaser]

Distributor lubing plan b

Going against the FSM without a good reason never feels right. I've changed my mind in terms of lubing the guts of the distributor.

Now, no grease under the governor weights or on the "red paper" bushing in the weight's pin holes. Instead I'll spray some Super Lube dry film on the weight's rotation points; I cannot see where some dry teflon would hurt.

The FSM does not go into overhauling the breaker plate so I still think some grease belongs on those ball bearings.

The one thing that still bothers me is whether to lube where the signal rotor rides on the governor shaft. The 4 non-machined recesses on the shaft (I'm pointing at one with a screwdriver) really look they were designed to be packed with grease.

 

[threadchaser]

distributor governor weight bushing

Not sure what this red "paper" is made of.

 

[threadchaser]

Gas tank

This gas tank does not look stock. There is no drain plug. The vent lines do not match those described. Looks like originally the tank mounted to the underside of the body and for the aftermarket install the tank was hung from the frame rails.

I am thinking that this might be a good situation to use up some of the POR-15 I purchased.

The following are some relevant threads on MUD

Pic of top of a stock tank:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/fj55-iron-...ty/227355-gas-tank-leak-replacement-tech.html

Separator pic:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/fj55-iron-pig-preservation-society/311393-gassy-pig.html

Variants and interchangeability:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/fj55-iron-...y/213241-rusted-gas-tank-what-my-choices.html

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=3191305&postcount=17
Offroad Rage:
According to the $OR site here are the compatible years for gas tanks:
9/69 - 9/71
9/71 - 8/76
8/76 - 7/80

 

[FJ40Jim]

What's the capacity of the tank? Is it an aftermarket long-range type?

 

[threadchaser]

Good question. I don't know; I'll fill it with water to test before it goes off to the radiator shop for flush and pressure testing; there's a leak *somewhere* but it could easily be the hoses as it only happens when topped.

 

[threadchaser]

The tank is a rectilinear box. The external dimensions of the tank are very close to 30" side-to-side, 26" front-to-rear, 9" tall. That's 7,020 cubic inches. Wikipedia says a "US liquid gallon" is 231 cubic inches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon

7020/231 = 30.39. So, I am guessing that would be a 30 gallon aftermarket tank. Some of that internal volume must NOT be available for liquid storage so maybe 30 G is just an upper limit at this time.

I guess filling it with water would be a good test and I could see what comes out to help determine the internal condition. Or maybe that is a bad idea...

 

[threadchaser]

It seems Google knows that MUD a place to get good fresh info. I was searching for more info on whether to grease the governor shaft to signal rotor interface. Instead, I found that the pictures I posted here on MUD yesterday are already in Google's index today.


Google: distributor grease governor 029450-4510

 

[threadchaser]

Distributor governor pin bushing installed

Here is the the governor pin bushing installed. The bushing is the slightly lighter colored ring the the right of the "5".

I cut the 1/4" O.D. spacer down to just over 5mm tall. Installed, the governor movement range in just over 4mm which is close to what I'm guessing the stock bushing was (4.4mm is as close as I can guess given the tools I have on hand). I will have to wait until the engine is running to determine how close that gets to giving 21 degrees mechanical advance.

See post #219 to see what was used to "fab" the bushing.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=9042277&postcount=219

P.S. while driving the bushing into it's new home, I supported the bushing pin from below with a cut up washer just shy of 2mm thick; the governor shaft never came out of the body during this overhaul, as per the FSM.

 

[PabloCruise]

Here are a bunch of Jim C. quotes gathered from around MUD, all pertaining to this missing bushing. Jim C.: The dizzys are all the same for 81-87 FJ40 & FJ60, USA-spec. Earlier dizzys have different curves because of the different cylinder head design. https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=491544&postcount=2 Jim C.: Yes, the stock curve is calibrated for EGR. Now that the EGR is gone, the cylinder pressure is much higher, so less advance is needed. https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=492561&postcount=6 Jim C.: The FJ60 distributors will run a long time. The only problems they develop is a leaky vac advancer and the aforementioned stop pin bushing. The stop pin is down inside the distributor, under the breaker plate. It is supposed to have a plastic bushing around it. The governor (advance mechanism) slot rests against the stop pin at idle. As the revs increase, the governor moves off the pin until the other side of the slot contacts the pin, about 10.5 degrees later. The plastic bushing tends to crumble, exposing the much smaller steel core of the stop pin. Now the rest angle is much retarded, and the max governor angle is more advanced. This means the distributor which already had a greater than ideal advance curve has about 6 more degrees than stock. You can see the stop pin without disassembling the dist. by looking through the inspection window in the breaker plate. Chances are it will be missing the plastic bushing, because 90% of them are after 10 years in service. In summary, you'll know if the stop pin is a problem by either: 1. Visual inspection 2. Live testing w/ advance timing light 3. testing on the distributor machine. ----- You'll know if the vac advancer is a problem by: 1. live testing w/ vac pump on engine 2. static testing w/ vac pump & visual inspection ----- You'll know if the advance curve is mismatched to the engine's requirements: 1. by setting to the best performance at peak torque (1800-2200rpm) and then finding idle timing too advanced or retarded. https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=492586&postcount=7 Jim C.: The stop pin bushing is non-serviceable. I fabricate them from brass tube, so as to avoid the disintegrating plastic problem in the future. https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=500719&postcount=15 Jim C.: The governor pin has to be big enough to limit total timing to what ever number you're shooting for. https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=3852833&postcount=4 Jim C.: [topic is a 79-80 USA type dissy] Connect the carb ported vac fitting (low on VC side of carb) to the inner dissy fitting, which will give 20* of vac advance. That's a lot of advance, on top of the mechanical advance, but at your altitude and with an older low compression 2F, it should be about right. https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=7529674&postcount=19 Jim C. and others, whole pinging thread is worth reading: First, the engine is pinging because there is too much timing advance. The stock timing is 7*BTDC, w/ 21* of mechanical advance available for a total of 28*. The distributor that is currently in the truck has a disintegrated governor limit bushing, which allows too much timing advance & steepens (sp?) the advance curve. Additionally, the base timing is advanced 4*. The result is 11* plus 26*, a total 37*, or 9* more timing than stock which gives audible spark knock. https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/636950-please-help-carb-secondary-still-not-opening.html

Nice collection!

 

[threadchaser]

Fuel pumps

First picture is the fuel pump on the F engine out of a 6/72 FJ55.

Second picture is the fuel pump on the 2F engine out of the ?/84 FJ60.

Seems the later pump is not serviceable. The earlier one is but folks seem to be having trouble finding rebuild parts. It has to be a solvable problem as SOR is selling rebuilds.

http://www.sor.com/cat028.sor

Has anyone just talked to Kyosan Denki?

http://www.kyosan-denki.co.jp/english/company08_2.htm#2

This rebuild kit problem should be solved. I have zero interest in leading a group purchase. Perhaps some MUD vendor might be encouraged to add a rebuild kit to their offerings...

 

[threadchaser]

Fuel return line

Here are figures 5-103 and 5-104 from the FSM for the F engine (9/88 reprint). If I am reading this right, at some time the F engine had no return line from the carb (and there was no return line from the fuel pump).

Sadly both engines I have on hand (F and 2F) have Weber 32/36 carbs on them (lame; if you're going Weber at least make it a 38/38 which is a fun carb. My FJ40 came to me with a 38/38 on it and it makes me happy). These two Webers do not have return lines installed on them so I have nothing to look at locally. MUD threads talk about a return line from the stock carb.

In Figure 5-103, I think the two hoses (45 and 24) go the the air fuel separator in the cargo area behind the panel. That is, they are tank vent related not post-fuel pump gas return lines.

Many threads advice that a return line can help with vapor lock and boiling gas hassles as well as providing fuel a pressure level that the Webers seem to like so I want one. I am confused.