Your Thoughts on the LC 250? (2 Viewers)

[Rednexus]

Depends what you like. I honestly prefer my 60 with the original 2F as the near perfect vehicle. Pretty much stock - ancient ARB front bumper, factory original front a rear lockers, old BFG ATs, a Nakamichi CD deck in the dash installed in the early 90s - I don’t need most of the features of a ‘modern’ car. I don’t really care about how fast it accelerates or handles. I don’t care to be coddled or entertained while I drive. Although my 100 and 200 are more comfortable for long high speed travel, especially when towing, over the last 37 years I have driven my 60 from Alaska to Central America a few times. Worked great and a lot of fun.

But I also know baselines shift and for many younger than me even a 100 seems old and out of date.

The first vehicle I purchased was a 1972 Chevy C10, so I'm well aware of stripper vehicles . I don't want to be necessarily coddled either, but I do like decent acceleration, handling, relative quiet, and comfort for those long days. My GX470 with Mark Levinson stereo, the posh leather, and sound deadening has certainly spoiled me in that regard - even a JK or a JL seems rather primitive .

 

[Rednexus]

When the motor pool tries to give you the Prado, they will tell you – The Prado is fuel efficient! Compact! Easy to park! Good in traffic! …..And it will leave your ass stranded 1200k up country with a punctured oil pan.

EDIT: Read your thread. Interesting failure mode for sure - and the first I've heard of on that platform. Is the 1GR oil pan plastic or something? Looked under my rig and I see how that failure could be possible with hitting a giant static object, but seems very unlikely on a lifted rig with skidplates (I have around 10-11" of clearance there on 32" tires). My rig gets drug pretty hard over the skids on a regular basis (and they are scraped/twisted), but at low speed.

 

[TheRealDeal124]

Depends what you like. I honestly prefer my 60 with the original 2F as the near perfect vehicle. Pretty much stock - ancient ARB front bumper, factory original front and rear lockers, old BFG ATs, a Nakamichi CD deck in the dash installed in the early 90s - I don’t need most of the features of a ‘modern’ car. I don’t really care about how fast it accelerates or handles. I don’t care to be coddled or entertained while I drive. Although my 100 and 200 are more comfortable for long high speed travel, especially when towing, over the last 37 years I have driven my 60 from Alaska to Central America a few times. Worked great and a lot of fun.

But I also know baselines shift and for many younger than me even a 100 seems old and out of date.

I'm 29 years old, and you're speaking my language when it comes to perfection. Give me a baselined older 4x4, especially a Toyota, any day of the week. Cherokee XJ, Wrangler LJ Rubicon, 95 80 Series, and now a 94. I much prefer the older dash and rubber shifter and steering wheel over my "corporate dash, leather infused" 95. I drove a 100, I drove a GX470, they didn't gave that feel I was looking for. Something about a solid front axle. The way they made cars back then, I sure did miss the glory days of most things being rebuildable and made of steel. Whereas 100 Series on, plastic was used.

 

[Diff Kraken]

EDIT: Read your thread. Interesting failure mode for sure - and the first I've heard of on that platform. Is the 1GR oil pan plastic or something? Looked under my rig and I see how that failure could be possible with hitting a giant static object, but seems very unlikely on a lifted rig with skidplates (I have around 10-11" of clearance there on 32" tires). My rig gets drug pretty hard over the skids on a regular basis (and they are scraped/twisted), but at low speed.

The 1GR oil pan is steel, but robust skids are key. They will definitely prevent this type of failure. It looks like the 250 has an option for OEM heavier duty skids. That may negate this concern in my opinion.

 

[Rednexus]

The 1GR oil pan is steel, but robust skids are key. They will definitely prevent this type of failure. It looks like the 250 has an option for OEM heavier duty skids. That may negate this concern in my opinion.

Skids were one of the first mods on my rig. Stock with saggy front springs it had maybe 8" of ground clearance. It was actually less than the 2014 Outback we had at that time and just not enough for much more than forest service roads. I drug them everywhere; now I hit them much less frequently.

I also put 3/16" aluminum skids on both of my old Subarus. The oil pan hung low on both of them - the skids took some big hits and speed and did just fine. My ARBs are only 1/8" steel but have been fine so far, other than scrapes and a few bends. At some point I'll likely upgrade to 3/16" when it's no longer also a tow rig and becomes more off-road focused.

 

[Jeremy556]

I commend you on your many adventures, and experience with the platform. And I appreciate your thoughts and opinions backed up by that experience. That being said, I had an entirely different experience with a 5G 4R two years ago that led me to get a 200 series. I'm now back in a 5G 4R, but you may want to take a look at what happened. It certainly caught me off guard. An aftermarket, or at least a robust factory skid is key to avoid this type of failure. You would not have believed how easily it happened. A rare fluke I'm sure, but a possibility none the less to be completely stranded on an easy public trail.

Search for truth- Front Diff and Oil Pan Exposure Question

Hey folks- I recently had an unfortunate encounter with a rock that surprised me. In my brand spanking new 5th gen 4runner last month a rock about 3-4" tall, paired with a 5-7" dip in the trail, took my truck out of commission at about 8mph. I'm used to hitting skid plates every now and then...

forum.ih8mud.com

Only read your initial post in that thread, but have seen some damage from what I'm sure is the same situation as yours. When you get a dip on both front wheels with a rock high in the middle, the mass of the vehicle will be moving down with momentum, compressing the front suspension and lowering your ground clearance, with a whole lot more force than just running into a rock that is taller than ground clearance normally allows. The stock soft springs on the 4runner don't help, but it is an inherent drawback of IFS - reduction of ground clearance through suspension travel.

 

[Diff Kraken]

From what I can see, the 200 series engineers took this type of impact into account in their design work to protect the vehicle from the factory- even with OEM skid plates. I'm hoping the design elements carry over to the 250, so I'm interested in seeing the undercarriage (both with and without skid plates on) if anyone has pictures or a video with a clear view.

This 200 series Toyota propaganda video is rather convincing for this element of development for the 200 series via "Vehicle Impact Evaluation".

 

[Phillyd2]

That's one hell of a contrast from what we've seen so far with the 250 'off road'



(5:12)

 

[Rednexus]

Only read your initial post in that thread, but have seen some damage from what I'm sure is the same situation as yours. When you get a dip on both front wheels with a rock high in the middle, the mass of the vehicle will be moving down with momentum, compressing the front suspension and lowering your ground clearance, with a whole lot more force than just running into a rock that is taller than ground clearance normally allows. The stock soft springs on the 4runner don't help, but it is an inherent drawback of IFS - reduction of ground clearance through suspension travel.

I don't think that is IFS-unique. The oil pan, x-members, etc would all be closer to the ground on a SFA rig with the suspension compressed, even if the axle centerline to ground distance does not change. IFS also should have more ground clearance than SFA under static conditions (assuming we're talking Toyota IFS, where not much hangs down), and usually the steering gear is tucked up a bit better as it's not horizontal (of course, depending on the rig).

I've personally punctured the oil pan on a '96 Dodge Caravan work vehicle (over 20 years ago) by hitting a rock head on. That impact also ripped off the steering rack (and nearly got me fired from my college summer job ). I've known other people to have similar failures by scraping transmission pans on rocks. It's what happens when you live in the Ozarks, where most of our road miles are gravel and rocky, and low-clearance highway vehicles can get torn to shreds. It's never been an issue on my other skidplate-protected rigs, but I had the wherewithal to pre-emptively add skidplates on every one of them.

 

[Jetboy]

I commend you on your many adventures, and experience with the platform. And I appreciate your thoughts and opinions backed up by that experience. That being said, I had an entirely different experience with a 5G 4R two years ago that led me to get a 200 series. I'm now back in a 5G 4R, but you may want to take a look at what happened. It certainly caught me off guard. An aftermarket, or at least a robust factory skid is key to avoid this type of failure. You would not have believed how easily it happened. A rare fluke I'm sure, but a possibility none the less to be completely stranded on an easy public trail.

Search for truth- Front Diff and Oil Pan Exposure Question

Hey folks- I recently had an unfortunate encounter with a rock that surprised me. In my brand spanking new 5th gen 4runner last month a rock about 3-4" tall, paired with a 5-7" dip in the trail, took my truck out of commission at about 8mph. I'm used to hitting skid plates every now and then...

forum.ih8mud.com

Do you have any more pictures or info on what happened? That's a very unusual failure. It is hard for me to see how it's possible to do that without either a manufacturing error (forgot to install hardware) or an extremely violent impact. It's a steel housing that is similar to the rear differential cast steel in thickness. I think thicker than the rear axle housing, certainly higher strength steel because it's cast steel and the impact would be to the flange which is nearly 1" of solid cast steel. And it is mounted with two forged steel "I" profile mounting brackets that are thicker steel than the frame. It's something that shouldn't need a skid plate.

The only weakness I can think of in the design here is the passenger side mounting arm has a fair amount of leverage against the mounting point on the frame cross member. A direct impact to the location of the lower bolts that attach to the housing extension pushing it up and twisting the diff seems at least maybe possible. The OEM skid plate bridges that area, but it's pretty thin.

The LC200 is nearly identical design:

In my case I feel like I durability tested the OEM steel skids pretty well. Even in that specific area:

Then this one:

I feel like I'm pretty hard on it. The TRD Pro aluminum skid - it only lasted one trail ride. Pretty weak TBH.

That's why I'm really surprised by the failure on yours. I'd love to see more photos of the damage if you have any.

 

[jayp2]

They command a price about 2X higher than a 4th gen 4Runner or a GX, and seem to get modded out more than either. I wanted a 100 when I was SUV-shopping, but quickly crossed them off the list due to being able to get a GX of similar age/miles for half the cost.

The 40/60 are just too old and underpowered and there are not enough around to have a "classic" status outside of the Land Cruiser faithful. If I was driving a 40 around here, people would mistake it for a Jeep. The 60 would get mistaken for a 1st-gen 4Runner 4Runner. 80s are certainly very cool and great off-roaders, but also fall into the underpowered category.

The 100 has V8 power and modern amenities and can still be DD'd in 2024. I'd consider dallying a 80 (but probably not wanting to drive it a whole lot on the interstate without a V8 swap) but can't imagine a 40 or 60 being much fun to drive outside of wheeling.

Many/Most of my fondest vehicle experience memories are from epic trips/adventures on and off road in 40/60 series LC's

Once the glacier at my house melts and snowpocalypse ends I'll be starting my re-rebuild/r&r of my 40 that I last R&R's circa 1990 with the intent/hope of dragging out to SAS in the next couple years.....this time though I may drag it on a trailer instead of driving it out west on mud tires with no radio......that which doesnt kill you makes you stronger...and maybe a little crazy(er)......

Part of the attraction to these vehicles has always been knowing that absent a major mechanical failure I knew I could bubba rig stuff together to get home....and have......everything from hotwiring it to get it to run due to failed ignition switch in iowa to a gravity feed 5 gal gas can on the hood in vermont cuz bad fuel pump and sections of spare fuel lines snaked under the hood and duct tape and straps holding everything together.

 

[Diff Kraken]

Do you have any more pictures or info on what happened? That's a very unusual failure. It is hard for me to see how it's possible to do that without either a manufacturing error (forgot to install hardware) or an extremely violent impact. It's a steel housing that is similar to the rear differential cast steel in thickness. I think thicker than the rear axle housing, certainly higher strength steel because it's cast steel and the impact would be to the flange which is nearly 1" of solid cast steel. And it is mounted with two forged steel "I" profile mounting brackets that are thicker steel than the frame. It's something that shouldn't need a skid plate.

The only weakness I can think of in the design here is the passenger side mounting arm has a fair amount of leverage against the mounting point on the frame cross member. A direct impact to the location of the lower bolts that attach to the housing extension pushing it up and twisting the diff seems at least maybe possible. The OEM skid plate bridges that area, but it's pretty thin.

View attachment 3597841
The LC200 is nearly identical design:
View attachment 3597876
In my case I feel like I durability tested the OEM steel skids pretty well. Even in that specific area:

View attachment 3597865
Then this one:
View attachment 3597869
View attachment 3597870
I feel like I'm pretty hard on it. The TRD Pro aluminum skid - it only lasted one trail ride. Pretty weak TBH.

That's why I'm really surprised by the failure on yours. I'd love to see more photos of the damage if you have any.

Thank you for your perspective and analysis. I really think the 200 series would not have had any issues with the same impact because the carrier arrangement does not put leverage on the diff, unlike the 120/150/4R/Tacoma and the 200 also has a nice bash guard to protect it against impact. A good set of skids solves these concerns of course, but talking about fresh off the factory floor it makes a difference.

The small rock that killed my 5th gen at 8mph:

My 5th Gen 4Runner OEM "splash guard" / skid plate after being pierced by the rock:

My 5th Gen 4Runner front diff cracked and pushed into the lower oil pan:

5th Gen 4Runner Front Diff carrier with leverage possible upon impact from the long mounting arms:

200 series with it's beefy front diff carrier guard and front diff mounted without leverage on the diff:

In any case, I look forward to seeing how this area looks on the 250.

 

[Rednexus]

Many/Most of my fondest vehicle experience memories are from epic trips/adventures on and off road in 40/60 series LC's

Once the glacier at my house melts and snowpocalypse ends I'll be starting my re-rebuild/r&r of my 40 that I last R&R's circa 1990 with the intent/hope of dragging out to SAS in the next couple years.....this time though I may drag it on a trailer instead of driving it out west on mud tires with no radio......that which doesnt kill you makes you stronger...and maybe a little crazy(er)......

Part of the attraction to these vehicles has always been knowing that absent a major mechanical failure I knew I could bubba rig stuff together to get home....and have......everything from hotwiring it to get it to run due to failed ignition switch in iowa to a gravity feed 5 gal gas can on the hood in vermont cuz bad fuel pump and sections of spare fuel lines snaked under the hood and duct tape and straps holding everything together.

The 40/60s are certainly simpler. Having turned most every undercarriage bolt and having ripped out most of the interior of my 120, I'm reasonably confident that I could fix just most things on the trail short of the rear diff blowing up, or maybe a fuel pump (considering you have to drop the tank). It would definitely be more complicated than working on a inline-six, carbureted vehicle with a mechanical fuel pump and almost no electronics, however .

I started out wrenching on carbureted GM and Ford trucks from the 70s and 80s and don't really miss them. They required constant tinkering and a seeming endless stream of starters, water pumps, alternators, fuel pumps, power steering pumps, timing chains, etc. My UZJ120 is an order of magnitude more complex but requires far less wrenching - outside of the header install or maybe re-doing the interior (which were royal pains), they aren't terrible to work on and I've been able to DIY everything.

Currently I'm planning a trip to the SW Colorado in September with a few of my buddies. We'll be in an '02 Tundra (which I helped lift and replace the T-belt on) and a JK Rubicon, plus of course my GX. Really looking forward to it, but we're also planning for possible mechanical breakdowns.

 

[Rednexus]

Thank you for your perspective and analysis. I really think the 200 series would not have had any issues with the same impact because the carrier arrangement does not put leverage on the diff, unlike the 120/150/4R/Tacoma and the 200 also has a nice bash guard to protect it against impact. A good set of skids solves these concerns of course, but talking about fresh off the factory floor it makes a difference.

The small rock that killed my 5th gen at 8mph:

In any case, I look forward to seeing how this area looks on the 250.

All good reasons why diff drops are an absolutely terrible idea. I don't see the point in putting even more leverage on those arms (in another direction as well) and losing ground clearance (thereby allowing hits to happen more often), all to save having to replace CV boots every 3-4 years.

 

[Jetboy]

Thank you for your perspective and analysis. I really think the 200 series would not have had any issues with the same impact because the carrier arrangement does not put leverage on the diff, unlike the 120/150/4R/Tacoma and the 200 also has a nice bash guard to protect it against impact. A good set of skids solves these concerns of course, but talking about fresh off the factory floor it makes a difference.

The small rock that killed my 5th gen at 8mph:

View attachment 3597945
View attachment 3597946

My 5th Gen 4Runner OEM "splash guard" / skid plate after being pierced by the rock:

View attachment 3597947

My 5th Gen 4Runner front diff cracked and pushed into the lower oil pan:

5th Gen 4Runner Front Diff carrier with leverage possible upon impact from the long mounting arms:

View attachment 3597897

200 series with it's beefy front diff carrier guard and front diff mounted without leverage on the diff:

View attachment 3597905
View attachment 3597923


In any case, I look forward to seeing how this area looks on the 250.

That's really interesting. Did it break the housing? And did it break the mounts? It wouldn't move back or up without a failure at the rear diff mount location. Any idea what a happened there? I'm a little curious if someone forgot to install that mounting nut. Whatever the case - huge PITA to deal with in the field.

The LC200 does look more protected. It probably should be more protected because of the aluminum housing.

 

[Jetboy]

For me - I would not want to daily drive a 40 or 60 unless I had a very short commute. My 40 is for trail riding and taking kids to get ice cream in the summer. Places where it's fun to have the top off. That's really what makes it worth having for me. And the short wheelbase is really useful for some utility stuff like plowing snow. Def. not for road trips. I would be willing to drive a 60 cross country, not an FJ40 unless it was an emergency. But a 60 doesn't do the top off stuff like a 40.

 

[jayp2]

For me - I would not want to daily drive a 40 or 60 unless I had a very short commute. My 40 is for trail riding and taking kids to get ice cream in the summer. Places where it's fun to have the top off. That's really what makes it worth having for me. And the short wheelbase is really useful for some utility stuff like plowing snow. Def. not for road trips. I would be willing to drive a 60 cross country, not an FJ40 unless it was an emergency. But a 60 doesn't do the top off stuff like a 40.

You should really try a 3000+ mile trip in one.....you'll never be the same again

You get in a groove and in tune with the sounds/vibrations/tone/feel of it.



I'm sure the 250 is a wonderful vehicle but its way outside what I personally want from a LC and its not just the $$$ and consequences/cost of a rub/scrape/etc

 

[Diff Kraken]

That's really interesting. Did it break the housing? And did it break the mounts? It wouldn't move back or up without a failure at the rear diff mount location. Any idea what a happened there? I'm a little curious if someone forgot to install that mounting nut. Whatever the case - huge PITA to deal with in the field.

The LC200 does look more protected. It probably should be more protected because of the aluminum housing.

Unfortunately, I never got to see underneath before the dealer fixed it. It got flat bedded to a dealer late at night after spending a couple hours towing it off the mountain by tow strap connected to a buddy's GX. The dealer was a good 140 miles from my place so I didn't get a chance to check damage to the truck out in person. The report of the cracked front diff, cracked upper and lower oil pans, and (very mysteriously) a blown front passenger shock came from the dealer with a video showing where the damage was. My theory on this whole episode is that I may have blown a front passenger shock earlier in the day getting tugged up a rock ledge, and later- when the truck bottomed out over the trail rock, it was able to go low enough to make contact. Still weird to have blown a shock without noticing and on an easy tug, but that's all the info I got from this and could not get a look underneath in person.

A small tug up a ledge earlier in the day, a couple hours before I hit the diff on the small trail rock:

Onwards and upwards- anyone have a better shot of the 250 undercarriage, front diff, and skids?

 

[Jetboy]

You should really try a 3000+ mile trip in one.....you'll never be the same again

You get in a groove and in tune with the sounds/vibrations/tone/feel of it.



I'm sure the 250 is a wonderful vehicle but its way outside what I personally want from a LC and its not just the $$$ and consequences/cost of a rub/scrape/etc

Mine has 39" bias ply tires. 3000 miles being unpleasant is an understatement. With some radial tires, noise cancelling earbuds, and enough time I could probably make it happen. It's better off on a trailer for anything over about 50 miles away. My dad has a stock 3 speed FJ40 that is not so bad to drive on the road. But it really doesn't want to go much over 55mph. A road trip on the backroads could be fun though.

I found that I almost always opted for the 4Runner over the FJ40 for offroad trips though due to the comfort level on road and I was always surprised how well the 4R did on the trail.

 

[TWILLY]

Unfortunately, I never got to see underneath before the dealer fixed it. It got flat bedded to a dealer late at night after spending a couple hours towing it off the mountain by tow strap connected to a buddy's GX. The dealer was a good 140 miles from my place so I didn't get a chance to check damage to the truck out in person. The report of the cracked front diff, cracked upper and lower oil pans, and (very mysteriously) a blown front passenger shock came from the dealer with a video showing where the damage was. My theory on this whole episode is that I may have blown a front passenger shock earlier in the day getting tugged up a rock ledge, and later- when the truck bottomed out over the trail rock, it was able to go low enough to make contact. Still weird to have blown a shock without noticing and on an easy tug, but that's all the info I got from this and could not get a look underneath in person.

A small tug up a ledge earlier in the day, a couple hours before I hit the diff on the small trail rock:

View attachment 3598024


Onwards and upwards- anyone have a better shot of the 250 undercarriage, front diff, and skids?

View attachment 3598027
View attachment 3598026

This is honestly something that makes me queasy about IFS generally.

It’s not inconceivable to have the front of the truck compress down onto/into/in front of an embedded rock at sufficient speed to rip the hell out of everything.

Rare? Sure. But it still scares the hell out of me, and this example affirms that.