Ha, had to stomp brake in a lifted 78 Bronco, pre-ABS; the whole truck just starts rotating around the engine...
Write-up: Toss the LSPV and install a manual proportioning valve (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jcardona1
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alia176
SILVER Star
This thread is about deleting ABS+LSPV,not the rationale behind doing it. Please post up on the the appropriate
thread on the liability issues with this project!
alia176
SILVER Star
I am running part time so the ABS system is de-activated regardless. However, when I was full time 4x4, panic braking didn't result in the ABS system kicking in on dry pavement. In fact, the tires didn't even come close to screeching on this 7,000# pig of mine. I don't think many overweight 80 in this crowd will be able to "lock" up all four tires on dry pavement while running 35s or larger tires using the OEM braking system IMHO.
I could not even get my 80 to activate the ABS on a gravel road. So in my case this is much safer than the legal ramifications. Make your own decision - this thread is only for the Tech part of it. Also learn to drive without ABS and learn how to panic brake properly.
SmokingRocks
hopelessly addicted to Cruisers
By replacing my rubber lines with SS braided lines, ditching the LSPV, installing NAPA reman front calipers, putting in new good quality metallic brake pads and power bleeding the system my brake feel, bite and performance increased drastically.
The pedal travel is still long ish. And what I found odd is that my other 93 (single owner unicorn) had a much higher and sharper point of engagement in the pedal travel. The brakes on that cruiser were fantastic. My trail snail, while improved, isn't the same as its brother. The engagement point is further down in the pedal travel and I have to apply more force to get the same level of braking.
That said, my snail weighs 7,000 lbs fully loaded and each one of its tires weighs in at about 100 lbs, the mall crawler was about 5400lbs and 40-50lb / tire.. So one would expect that brake performance would vary between the two. Either way I wonder if my master cylinder is the culprit behind the difference in engagement points.
I would like to say that deleting the LSPV on a armored and loaded rig is not a 'dangerous' idea by any stretch of the imagination. In fact deletion of it is more likely to save your ass. And insurance adjusters rarely know what make vehicle they are sent to asses let alone where or even what the LSPV is.
The pedal travel is still long ish. And what I found odd is that my other 93 (single owner unicorn) had a much higher and sharper point of engagement in the pedal travel. The brakes on that cruiser were fantastic. My trail snail, while improved, isn't the same as its brother. The engagement point is further down in the pedal travel and I have to apply more force to get the same level of braking.
That said, my snail weighs 7,000 lbs fully loaded and each one of its tires weighs in at about 100 lbs, the mall crawler was about 5400lbs and 40-50lb / tire.. So one would expect that brake performance would vary between the two. Either way I wonder if my master cylinder is the culprit behind the difference in engagement points.
I would like to say that deleting the LSPV on a armored and loaded rig is not a 'dangerous' idea by any stretch of the imagination. In fact deletion of it is more likely to save your ass. And insurance adjusters rarely know what make vehicle they are sent to asses let alone where or even what the LSPV is.
I'm part time and will soon delete the ABS completely. As far as the LSPV goes, it stays!
Pontificate all you want, having a properly functioning LSPV is not a hindrance.
Pontificate all you want, having a properly functioning LSPV is not a hindrance.
alia176
SILVER Star
I figured the LSPV would be warranted if the cargo load changes but it sounds like some of these rigs have a constant weight in the rear.
I haven't seen anyone do this yet, I wouldn't mind ditching ABS but keeping the LSPV but is it possible? Have you attempted?
All the parts are on the shelf. Its a rime thing right now.
Not being able to stop in time because the 24 year old factory safety equipment is not functioning properly almost bit me and my 4 kids hard into the back of another car. I can stop now, I'm happy
People keep saying stuff like this, but does anyone have proof of this? Can people point to cases where a "modified" vehicle was blamed for causing an accident because of said modification? Is a driver held to more liability if his brakes are worn out too far, his tire treads are worn down too thin, if his headlight bulb is out? Who decides this stuff? And who decides if it is relevant to why an accident happened? Does anyone work for an insurance company & have relevant info on this kind of stuff?
What is considered a modification? What tires did these trucks come standard with? Michelin LTX or something? Is it considered a modification to be using a different brand of tire, even stock size?
If you rear ended somebody couldn't someone say, "Well that vehicle didn't have OEM specified tires, that's why it didn't stop in time! They are to be held more liable now!"?
Couldn't someone say, "Well that vehicle is lifted, it has a modified suspension! That's why it didn't stop in time! They should be held more liable now!"?
Couldn't someone say "Well that person is driving a Land Cruiser, if they were driving a Corolla they could have stopped in time! It is their fault because they weren't driving a Corolla! They are more liable!"?
The people are doing this ABS delete to stop faster and decrease the chances of rear ending somebody, is there a way to prove this is the case? What if you had a document or video proof etc. that showed longer stop distance with 22 year old ABS and shorter stopping distances with that equipment deleted? Would that get you off the hook for increased liability in the case of an accident? If your 22 year old ABS is not working well, you know it and do nothing about it, it seems THAT would make you more at fault compared to implementing a fix that involves deleting the faulty old safety systems!!
I know people keep saying this thread is "how to" delete ABS, not "why or why not" to delete ABS, but a new thread just seems like too many clicks. Why not have "how to" and "why or why not to" information all in one thread?
alia176
SILVER Star
This came out of the blue, what parts are you talking about?
Good points. A lot of these examples are maintenance issues though. That's different from actively deleting a safety feature. Crazy example: let's say you delete your brakes or seat belts or air bag, go for a drive, and someone gets killed. How do you think that's going to play out? It's the other lawyer's job to make it look like deleting ABS or LSPV or whatever is tantamount to that, even if it's not. Failing to check you brakes or airbag or belts or tire tread depth or ABS or whatever is not the same as intentionally and illegally disabling them--which lets your insurer disown you, the injured party sue you, and the state prosecute you. Unlikely? Sure it is--and you're free to play those odds with a 5,000-pound vehicle. But if the odds don't work out, you may not be free for long.
As to the video, that would be very interesting if there are multiple videos of different vehicles. But if you spin into a wreck, when ABS would have prevented that, it ain't gonna help. Nor does it change the fact that disabling safety equipment is illegal. Strange as it seems--legally, you're safer ABS-ing right into a wreck (ARB bull bar recommended) that may not have happened without ABS. The state in its wisdom has mandated ABS, and that's that. If you really detest it, get an older LC without it. Though of course, that means no air bags either. Me, I want the bags (and the OBD-II), so I get the ABS too.
I'm not trying to convince anyone, just pointing out the downside in the interests of a fully-informed decision.
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Yep, totally agree that there is a difference between regular maintenance and a safety system. I'm trying to make a fully informed decision myself before I go about doing this modification. My brakes suck at the moment! My brain just starts going crazy imagining a courtroom debate about all the scenarios that two sides could try to argue. The lawyers would have to be knowledgeable car people for this debate to even make sense. Or does it come down to an oversimplified snippet of judgement like most news stories; "Negligent driver deleted safety system, liable for damages".
Riddle me this. Let's say you have two cruisers. Each one rear ends a vehicle. One cruiser is a 1993, never had ABS, the other is a 1996 but with ABS deleted. They have the same stopping characteristics. Who bears more liability in the wreck? Is it the same? Or different? Should all cars without ABS be banned? Or is the 93 cruiser being required to pay a heftier insurance premium because his truck doesn't have ABS and that covers it?
Guys that have deleted ABS: did you tell your insurance company your truck no longer has ABS? If you get in a wreck, and it's discovered that you don't have ABS when your insurance policy for a factory ABS truck says you do, is that insurance fraud?
If we delete ABS, but let our insurance companies know, are we off the hook?
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alia176
SILVER Star
Given the amount of mods we do to these things, probably everything is pointing to a poorly handling vehicle on the road. I bet most 80s on the road are nothing but liabilities on wheels.
My guess is that if you do that, you are uninsured. Because if not, your insurance company is on the hook.
The headline? Yup.
As to 93 vs 96, the 93 is grandfathered in--just like a Model T. The 96 must comply with 96-year factory safety mandates. If the equipment fails, that may be on the mfr or the dealer that last serviced it (yeah, I know...). But if someone went in and removed it entirely, guaranteeing it could not possibly work as intended no matter its condition--that is not mere negligence. That is intentional. (The phrase "willful disregard" comes to mind.) You hang some serious bumpers, that's obviously a safety enhancement (for you, anyway). Which is different. Get yourself some Centric reman brakes and new lines, check the MC and booster, and rotors and pads and ABS and tires. You may find it stops just fine--assuming you're not running way over on weight.
I'm deleting the ABS completely and have all the required factory lines to do it as if it was built that way.
