wont idle and amp meter is pegging

[fj404life]

I know Riddle! Was hoping you were in Central Oregon somewhere. Would like to meet some cruiser guys around here!

My 69 Carb has no solenoid. I got the odd ball carb I think.
Pretty sure its something electrical. May just toss a new alternator at it for giggles as its still running the original and its pretty scummy looking.
I hate to throw parts at it...but regulator and alternator are about the only 2 things that have not been replaced in the system.

 

[fj404life]

Ugg could not get an alternator today.
Anyone else have anymore ideas for me to try out tomorrow?
I ran it with the plug out of the alternator no change.
I am taking a break and working on a Warn 8274 I am bringing back to life.
Good to walk away from crap like this and come back later with a fresh head!

 

[Pin_Head]

1. Adjust your idle mixture and speed so it will at least idle and not stall all the time. Then you won't have to breathe all the gas fumes from running it with the choke on.

2. I don't usually harp on things, but I have asked you twice about the condition of the ground wire (white w/black stripe) between the alternator case and the voltage regulator. You have ignored it. Maybe you don't think it is important, but Toyota did.

3. All cars come with a ground strap between the engine and the battery and frame. This is not the same as the alternator ground, but if it is missing it could be part of the problem.

 

[fj404life]

1. done I can keep it running high idle but the amp meter is still neg at idle and peggin with throttle and at a high idle the idle sounds a bit lumpy...all plugs are firing.
2. wire looks a ok. the wire harness on this rig is in awesome shape and that wire looks to be fine
3. Batt grounded to frame. No groundstrap from motor/starter to frame you sure there was one in 69?
The only other ground strap I have found is coming off the taillight harness.

 

[psreno]

Just throwing out an idea that I ran across. Actually, I bought my '64 because the PO couldn't get it to run well or at all really.

There was a plastic insulator beneath the ammeter lug that cracked, probably from overtightening. The crack allowed a short that killed the vehicle and you could actually see the arc burn marks all the way through the plastic after I broke it in half to see.

 

[Pin_Head]

Run a temporary wire from the alternator case to the ground for the voltage regulator and see if the charging problem goes away. If the alternator and VR don't have the same ground potential, strange things can happen to the alternator output. Also try grounding the engine to the frame. I am reasonably confident that the 69 had a ground strap from the engine to the frame, like all the other cruisers I have seen.

 

[fj404life]

Ok just a small update. I could not resist messing with it while the paint dried on my winch parts.
I was gandering at the electrical section of the F engine manual reading up on alternator testing.
It said to ohm out the F to E terminals...should read 4.2 if I remember right...anyways I ohm it out at 0.
So I pulled it and will get a new one. The FSM stated that a lower ohm reading means the alternator is shorted out internally I think. Anyways maybe I am on to something. The alternator was for sure the original 69 Teq edition. And was way overdue for a replacement from the sound of it spinning once I pulled it.

edit...pin thanks for sticking with me you must of been typing while I was posting this.
What do you think about this test I just did?

 

[bsmith123]

shorted

if it is shorted you may have taken out the VR as well

This seems consistent with you ammeter all over the place

 

[4x4 Station Wagon]

I am crossing my fingers. One thing about it your regulator is brand spanking new you could take it back and get a new one from the parts house down the road from where you bought it and then you would have brand spanking new both.

What don't look at me like that are you telling me you have never done it?

 

[Pin_Head]

A shorted field coil isn't going to put out any power, which is kind of the opposite of your problem.

The meter you are talking about is the stock 30-0-30 amp meter in the dash, right? The wiring is stock?

 

[fj404life]

Hmmm...

Yup my amp (-30 0 30) meter is stock. Wiring is stock.
I checked to make sure the regulator was getting power and a ground.
Cant get an alternator here in the boonies till tuesday.

 

[lostmarbles]

...It said to ohm out the F to E terminals...should read 4.2 if I remember right...anyways I ohm it out at 0.
So I pulled it and will get a new one. The FSM stated that a lower ohm reading means the alternator is shorted out internally I think. Anyways maybe I am on to something. ...


What do you think about this test I just did?

Unfortunately I wouldn't assume that my alternator was faulty from such a test.

I find that it is almost impossible to take my own ohm readings and have them match FSM specifications. (I think an ohmeter is best used simply to verify whether or not you have "continuity".)

If I was you, I would have wanted to run your vehicle with both plugs on your alternator unplugged. (I pressume there are only 2 connectors - same as mine.) That way your ammeter couldn't "peg to the right" and you could see if the idling problem disappeared as well.

 

[fj404life]

Ya I hear ya on the fsm specs with the ohm meter. I was expecting it to be close though and not zero'd out.

I did run it without the 2 smaller wires plugged in to the alternator. Amp meter did not work and truck still wanted to die.

 

[lostmarbles]

..I did run it without the 2 smaller wires plugged in to the alternator. Amp meter did not work and truck still wanted to die.

Well if the problem persists with your alternator completely disconnected - then your alternator can't be the cause of your problems! No?

It is just that by having your alternator TOTALLY disconnected -(all connectors open) - this result would have been more conclusive.



PS. I am assuming the "ammeter pegging" and "engine dying" are caused by the same fault. (Cos it is unusual for 2 new unrelated faults to appear at the same time.)

And you could unplug your voltage regulator too - to eliminate that.

 

[fj404life]

Ya I didnt have the big B terminal wire disconnected the 1st time around.
I just went out to my shop and fired it up with no alternator at all (all disconnected).
It seems to be running smoother...I could back the idle down to a more proper speed with out it dying.
Anyways doesnt say much as its a random problem...so it may be back next time I start it up or drive it.
Also with no alternator hooked up I have no amp meter so no way to tell if thats still whacky.
Im gonna focus on my winch rebuild until I get my new alternator...I will post up when I get it installed and test it out.
I appreciate all the help fellas. Between you guys, searching, and crawling around my rig I have become much smarter in the ways of auto electrical....still got some learnin to do though! hah

 

[Pin_Head]

You would need a pretty fancy ohm meter to reliably tell the difference between 4 ohms and zero. They don't come in cracker jack boxes or from Harbor Freight for $20.

What I said was to run a temporary jumper wire between the alternator case ground and the voltage regulator ground. Just because they are both "grounded" doesn't mean that they have the same ground potential. If one of the grounds is "floating" then you can get the problem you describe. Toyota ran a ground wire (one of very few) originally between the alternator and voltage regulator and I suspect that it isn't connected or it is bad.

 

[fj404life]

I wasnt ignoring your suggestion. Just didnt have the alternator in the rig anymore.
I didnt get my multimeter at HF...it seems capable. I was just testing different stuff on the alt and I did get 4.3 from one of the connections to the case....so it seems to be working?
I will do the temp jumper when I get an alt on Tuesday for sure if my problem is not solved.

Edit: I also check continuity of the wh/blk wire from the alternator to the regulator which I am positive is the ground you speak of.

 

[bsmith123]

shorts and the meter

The field windings are a coil which can short to ground but also can short from winding to winding. This is like taking 2 smaller power wires and connecting them together in effect making a bigger wire hence reducing resistance. Some shorted windings are okay but eventually or it could be a short to case or ground

try a good multimeter like a Fluke or try to check the accuracy of yours on some known rsistances

Normally shooting wires I would say dont worry about small differences in resistance values but in this case the diff between 0 and 4 ohms is important

So you may already have found the prob or your meter is crap

Let us know how it goes!

This guy does a good job of describing alternator short faults
Ron Kilber's Logbook - Aircraft Charging Systems

he is talking aircraft but the principal is the same


"Second, a good, sensitive ohm meter must be used to check the condition of the field winding (an inexpensive ohm meter can't accurately measure four ohms). This is done by disconnecting the regulator (with engine and master off, both sides) and placing one lead of the ohm meter to ground, the other to pin "F" of the connector, which joins the wire to the alternator's field. If it's a dead short (zero ohms), it will cause a frequent problem with malfunctioning systems: a broke voltage regulator (shorted main transistor). The system works only momentarily, then shuts down or overcharges all the time. The voltage regulator and the shorted alternator must be replaced or overhauled.
Field resistance should never be less than four ohms and must be checked by rotating the propeller to include measurement while the brushes rotate 360 degrees around the slip rings. If the resistance is too high or fluctuates too much as the shaft rotates, the brushes or slip rings could be defective. The alternator will charge very little or not at all.
With infinite resistance, on the other hand, the field winding could be open (broke) or the wire to the alternator is loose or off. The system will not charge at all. Improper field resistance usually indicates that a new or overhauled alternator is needed."

 

[Blue77FJ40]

FWIW, I was going to throw in a suggestion similar to psreno's, where possible a loose connection of the leads to the ammeter may be causing a problem. They do carry a good bit of current. Not sure if you can eyeball it from underneath without removing the dash. I had a wire to the ammeter loosen and cause problems when I first got my '40.

 

[fj404life]

Bsmith that was some good reading thanks. I have learned so much about electronics in the last few days LOL.
Blue I hear ya on that but I would think the amp gauge would not work at all if there was a bad connections. I OHM'd between the alternator B and the battery and things seem to be ok there.
I am about to run and pick up that new alternator...will post up once I toss that in and check things out.
Thanks for the help guys for real!!!!