wont idle and amp meter is pegging

[fj404life]

Ok...I am not sure if you guys are getting this point or if I have something crazy in my head (likely).
When cold...starter spins fast. Also if you just put the key to RUN (motor off) the amp meter drops the normal 3/16" or so.

After driving to temp. Shut off and try to start...slow starter. ALSO, if you just turn the key to RUN (motor off) the amp meter will VERY slowly drop maybe 1/32" of an inch.
Let things cool and go back to normal.
Why is the amp meter acting funny in run. The starter is NOT drawing power in run, only the coil right?

Please forgive me for being stubborn...but I just dont get it.

 

[Pin_Head]

Whether the coil is drawing power or not depends on whether the points are open or closed and this is randomly determined by the position of the distributor when you shut it off.

 

[fj404life]

Hmm I am starting to wrap my head around this.
But the amp meter thing does not seem random at all. I can go out there and start stop that motor a bunch of times and I ALWAYS get the same drop on the meter in the run position.

 

[Blue77FJ40]

Battery is the best sears diehard they make.

I guess bad starter/solenoid.

If you got the Sears Platinum, then you got their best - it's made by Odyssey. Great battery and great price.

 

[inkpot]

Howdy! I think you may have more than one problem causing more than one symptom, but it is really confusing when it all happens at one time. Worry about the starter issue first, as it is probably the biggest problem. I would just replace it. Many years ago, I had a very similar problem with the starter(s) on my 350. When rig was completely warmed up, the starter would not turn the engine over at all and the amp gauge would max out when holding the key in the start position. Let it cool off, or pour a bunch of water on it, and it would work fine. Replaced the starter with a Checker Lifetime, and problem went away for a couple of years. Then problem came back. Replaced it again, got a couple of years and it was back. Replaced it again, and problem has been gone for about 5 or 6 years now. Stayed with Checker because my buddy is the store manager, and the replacements did not cost me anything. I'd guess taht someone used wrong/substandard parts in the remanufacturing for a while before Checker figured it out. Maybe you could borrow a starter from somebody and that would pinpoint/eliminate the starter. John

 

[bsmith123]

dragging when hot

Starter dragging when hot is not that unusual but you have had some other issues maybe caused by this but it was not clear at the time. Testing will probably help narrow it down if done at the right time when it is hot.

The AMMETER is held at zero by a magnet when the battery is neither charging or discharging. When the battery is charging from the alternator input, current flow produces magnetic force and moves it toward +, when the battery is discharging current/magnetic force moves it towards -


"When cold...starter spins fast. Also if you just put the key to RUN (motor off) the amp meter drops the normal 3/16" or so.

After driving to temp. Shut off and try to start...slow starter. ALSO, if you just turn the key to RUN (motor off) the amp meter will VERY slowly drop maybe 1/32" of an inch.
Let things cool and go back to normal. "

What I get from that then is since you say it is dropping, it is moving towards - right?

then the battery is discharging (no alternator) faster and further when it is cold than when it is hot

Higher resistance in the wiring when it is hot than when it is cold could explain this even if it is the coil or whatever is making the draw

Heat generally increases resistance

Do you have a points ignition with a ballast resistor?

By the way what year/motor is your rig?

 

[fj404life]

Ya you got it right. Normaly before these issues started popping up and when the rig is cold the ammeter clicks down fast when you turn the key to run. Dropping a good amount (about 3/16-1/4").
When the rig is hot and the starter wants to spin slow the ammeter only drops a TINY bit very slowly.
I have pretty much decided I am going to toss a new coil and starter on it as they are the only 2 things left I have not changed out. haha.

Rig is a 69 Stock F Stock points ignition. Dunno what a ballast resistor is dont think I have one?

 

[bsmith123]

Newish rig now

Yeah but you should not have trouble for a long time now--you got a newish kind of rig now!

Since it runs okay after you crank it It's a pretty sure bet your coil is ok. But a spare is not a bad thing if your wrong on that.

At the end of the day it is you who are laying out the money and putting in the effort so you got to do what you think is right

With points you would have a ballast resistor in that year I think, some vehicles had resistance wire but I think you will have the resistor in a 69--I am not an expert on all things FJ

A ballast resistor is basically a coil of wire that heats up and increases resistance to drop the voltage to the coil to 6 volts or so when the key is in the run pos---this increases the life of the points. Another wire carries full 12 volts to the coil when in the start pos (from the solenoid).

Let us know how it goes

ps I found this post---- Also I forgot to mention some coils have internal resistors and in that case someone may have got rid of the external one

"I have a '74 FJ-40 (F Engine) and my ballast resistor is actually mounted in a square metal housing right near the coil on the passenger side fender. It's mounted just below the coil, about 2" below it, on the back side of the coil mount.

If you remove the box and look inside, it has a wire wound resistor on a ceramic core. It looked like a rusty sheet metal box, about 3" long, by 1" wide.

Mine is easy to find by folllowing all the wires off the coil terminals.

Hope this helps.

Rocky"

 

[fj404life]

Ya exactly it will be a few less things I need to worry about. Not the ideal way to solve a problem. But probably not a bad idea to replace a 40 yr old starter and coil hahah.

On the resistor I dunno about that on mine. One wire goes to dist/cond. And the other goes into the harness going through the firewall...assuming to ignition fuse.

 

[fj404life]

Just went out to the cold shop and pulled the coil. Tested with my ohm meter.
Primary 0 secondary 12.6k. That not good.

New coil...Napa or ?

 

[bsmith123]

coil

no not normal---check the primary windings to the case if you have continuity then it is shorted to the case. That's and ignition short to ground and bad JUJU


Could also be winding shorted to each other which would lower the resistance of the windings and it may work but eventually go bad as basically this reduces the number of windings= weak spark. But it wont get better right?

A coil with a ballast resistor built in should read higher than one with an external resistor but 0 is too low

A search on mud will turn up the specs I've seen em before but I am thinking the secondary K-ohms is in the good range but you should see a couple ohms on the primary

 

[fj404life]

ya i checked the specs in fsm...primary was way off was like 3 or 4 if I remember.

Ill run out and check it to the case didnt think of that...

Ok no short to case. (at least not when its 30 degrees)
Wonder if it could be shorting when it gets hot. After running about 10 miles the coil was pretty warm.

FSM Specs

Primary 3-4
Secondary 6.75-8.2k

Napa for new coil or?

 

[bsmith123]

warm coil

yeah I think pretty warm is normal for the coil.

could it be pulling down the voltage? I think you would burn up the ballast resistor, coil, or wiring before you could drop the voltage enough to keep it from cranking but I am wondering if this is would heat up the ballast resister and maybe the cause of the ammeter readings.

either way prolly time for a new coil

It will be interesting to see

 

[Dirtsquirt]

I have experienced a similar condition b4

The hot cold scenerio has been played out in my life b4

In my youth I power timed a vehicle

Timed it by ear. Ie Advanced till it ping'd under heavy accel.
and retarded it till it just stopped under hard acceleration.
The engine would crank over slow when warm

Neway I finaly broke down and bought a timing light and the hot
starting condition went away.

The timing was to advanced and put to much load on the starter when it was combined with the closing tolerances of a warm engine.

 

[Toyo FJ40]

I had a similar problem with my work truck that it was starting fine but would turn slow when hot. I ended up replacing the starter twice in 2 years and it seemed to help for a while then it would be right back to slow cranking when hot to the point that I'd have to wait for it to cool to start it. I finally replaced the engine to frame grounding strap and all the problems stopped. Reading through the post did you say you don't have a ground from the starter mount bolt to the frame?

Kevin

 

[Pin_Head]

The chances of the coil being bad are slim to none and it doesn't explain the problems with your starter. You need a really good meter to accurately measure ohms in the 0 to 10 range.

 

[fj404life]

Really good as in a Fluke Multimeter or better yet?
Seems that a poor ohm meter should be able to tell the diff between 3-4 and 0?

And that is interesting dirtsquirt. I have not even bothered timing this thing as it has ran super since I got it...till lately.

I went ahead and ordered a new coil and a new gear reduction starter from Napa.
Will replace both tomorrow...one at a time and report back if anything is solved.

 

[bsmith123]

All good points have you should actually checked the timing and ground strap? Mentioned earlier a couple times, too as positive fixes for the problem. The kickback from the engine with the timing too far advanced will make it start hard and seem like it is dragging.

Like I said I dont think the coil is bad yet cause it is running but reading zero ohms it could be on its way out. I have only used a couple of cheapo meters but they could tell the diff between 0 and 4 ohms but who knows?

FLuke is a good meter or probably any good brand name meter. I have only used Fluke digital or Simpson analog professionally so really cant say much about all the others.

Actually with a cheapie analog you zero it before you start so I would think you would see some movement of the needle if that is what you are using

standing by to see what happens

 

[fj404life]

I am pretty sure there never was a ground strap from the starter/motor to frame.
I ran a set of jumper cables as a temp ground and noticed no change.
Timing...I need to get a light. Could the timing change out of the blue?

 

[Dirtsquirt]

anything is possible

I believe you can change the spark event by varying the gap on the points. A wider gap will make the spark event happen sooner.
a smaller gap will act inversly.

Being a Chevy fan all my life. I always adjusted my points with the unit running Via Dwell.

In a pinch a match book cover thickness would get you home

I guess what I am saying is . Are the points adjust as per fsm.
not sure if difference in timing that could occur due to improper points is even enough to be an issue.. but seems worth checking