Windshield Replacement-- replace gasket? Sealant? (1 Viewer)

[-Spike-]

Right now I am dealing with leaks and "know it all" installers that think they know how to deal with it, I live in Venezuela and when they see an instruction page in English they say "Oh no that's in their country, here is a different procedure" So far, 4 failed attempts at 2 different places.

So, I think I found an installer willing to do it the way FSM states it should be done, which I hope to do in a few weeks.

Now, what I researched for adhesives for this work, the Sikaflex 256HV is not butyl, is Uretane, the HV stands for High Viscosity but Sika doesn't manufacture it anymore but they still have Sikaflex 256. But, Dupont manufacrures Betaseal DOW U-418HV which, as you guessed it, HV is High Viscosity, so this one is the closest one to the specification.

3M has a Butyl substitute, the "Auto Bedding and Glazing Compound" Part Number 08509 that's supposed to keep flexible for years. I asked 3M if they recommend this product and they answered by email the following:

autotrades@mmm.com​	Wed, Oct 13, 3:52 PM (4 days ago)
to me

Hello Erick,

Thank you for contacting 3M, where we apply science to life.

In short, the product mentioned (PN 8509, 3M Auto Bedding and Glazing Compound) SHOULD NOT be used for the installation of the windshield glass itself. For this repair, you should refer to Toyota’s repair manual for this vehicle or any official statements made by Toyota as it refers to the products and procedures they call out for glass replacement.

3M PN 8509 is “Designed for creating seal between rubber windshield gasket and auto body” – so while it may have reason for use on the rubber weatherstrip (also to be confirmed by Toyota repair manuals and official statements), it should not be used for the installment of the glass windshield.


All my best,

Erin

Erin Suchara | Application Engineer
Automotive Aftermarket Division

-------

So far, it's very confusing, already bought the 3M product and thinking about buying the DOW U-418HV. The first one to make the sealing of the lip around the glass and the second one to glue the glass in the weatherstrip insert and have the best of both worlds but I think the DOW product is what approaches the best the Sikaflex 256HV wanted to share my thoughts about this subject and will tell you how it turns out once I have it installed.

I would bet they are giving you a standard answer, and it only applies if you have a windshield that doesn't use a gasket. In fact, their reply says it is for your situation- '...seal between rubber gasket and auto body'. Most modern windshields are glued directly to the body with urethane, with no gasket used. DON'T use urethane on your gasket. The 3M 8509 looks like the right product from your description and their email.

 

[Mrtwooooo]

Literally the hardest part is finding a glass installer that will listen to the instructions you give them and actually do it. They alllllll think they know it all and don't take the time to listen. When really all you are trying to do is prevent leaks and prevent them from having to come do it all over again.

 

[ehouli]

I would bet they are giving you a standard answer, and it only applies if you have a windshield that doesn't use a gasket. In fact, their reply says it is for your situation- '...seal between rubber gasket and auto body'. Most modern windshields are glued directly to the body with urethane, with no gasket used. DON'T use urethane on your gasket. The 3M 8509 looks like the right product from your description and their email.

That's what I thought, but researching the Sikaflex 256HV shown in the FSM, it is most likely Urethane but there are no updates, bulletins or whatever Toyota do to update procedures to know what they recommend these days for the 80 series. I'll try to read a bit more about the use of urethane inside the gasket but sure the 3M product is the one for the outer sealing.

Literally the hardest part is finding a glass installer that will listen to the instructions you give them and actually do it. They alllllll think they know it all and don't take the time to listen. When really all you are trying to do is prevent leaks and prevent them from having to come do it all over again.

Yes and the last installer was the worse of them, really stubborn manager and installer and thinking on giving them a bad review on Google soon, they know about no gasket windshields but nothing about any LC previous to 100 series.

 

[DivByZero]

Thanks for posting this picture, the manual I have in PDF doesn't show that image, it says to apply the Sikaflex 256HV to both lips and only mentions the Toyota sealer (08833-00030) in the verification process testing for leaks and sealing them accordingly. Which version of the manual do you have?

Edit: I've been researching this subject for months, but today I was lucky, I found the Toyota product (08833-00030) in a few sites that I don't know their reputation and then suddenly found this in ebay, not the same number but gives an idea.

0883300070 Genuine Toyota Adhesive 08833-00070 for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 0883300070 Genuine Toyota Adhesive 08833-00070 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Then kept looking and found the product with the manufacturer brand name in it:

ThreeBond 1324 Medium Strength Nut Lock Adhesive Sealant 6132450

ThreeBond 1324 Medium Strength Nut Lock Adhesive Sealant 50g 61324-50

www.allfourx4.com.au

From their text I can say that PN 08833-00030 is just a liquid sealer (butyl perhaps?) or just a flowable sealant used to fix minor leaks after windshield install, it seems Toyota had a hard time repairing windshields outside from assembly line.

You need to check the SST listings, they give details on original manufacturers or equivalents. 08833–00070 is indeed listed as "THREE BOND 1324 or equivalent", but 08833–00030 is listed as "Three cement black or equivalent", which I believe refers to this goo:
Amazon product ASIN B00BAO6R6Q
Product code "V9350-0108" from "Drive Joy", seems like something that's basically domestic to Japan. The product description for this is as follows:
"A general-purpose synthetic rubber adhesive suitable for bonding weather strips and vinyl leather"

 

[ehouli]

You need to check the SST listings, they give details on original manufacturers or equivalents. 08833–00070 is indeed listed as "THREE BOND 1324 or equivalent", but 08833–00030 is listed as "Three cement black or equivalent", which I believe refers to this goo:
Amazon product ASIN B00BAO6R6Q
Product code "V9350-0108" from "Drive Joy", seems like something that's basically domestic to Japan. The product description for this is as follows:
"A general-purpose synthetic rubber adhesive suitable for bonding weather strips and vinyl leather"

Thanks for this info, actually "Threecement" is the bad translation for "Threebond" the manufacturer of both products, a Japanese company. Probably its a butyl based product that's no longer recommended for ecological or other reasons.

The Drive Joy product shown as a Synthetic rubber adhesive, appears to be the equivalent of the 3M auto bedding and glazing product that is described the same way.

 

[flintknapper]

You should be fine with this: 3M PN 8509 is “Designed for creating seal between rubber windshield gasket and auto body”

I can tell you that your installer will want to scalp you if you supply ANY High Viscosity sealant. It is the devil to try to apply. Sometimes requiring a pneumatic dispensing gun.

The process for installing a windshield (correctly) in a 80 series is a somewhat arduous event. There needs to be sealant between the glass and gasket and sealant between the gasket and auto body. It is time consuming and not easy to keep sealant from getting on things you don't want it on. But if not done this way it WILL leak at some point.

 

[ehouli]

You should be fine with this: 3M PN 8509 is “Designed for creating seal between rubber windshield gasket and auto body”

I can tell you that your installer will want to scalp you if you supply ANY High Viscosity sealant. It is the devil to try to apply. Sometimes requiring a pneumatic dispensing gun.

The process for installing a windshield (correctly) in a 80 series is a somewhat arduous event. There needs to be sealant between the glass and gasket and sealant between the gasket and auto body. It is time consuming and not easy to keep sealant from getting on things you don't want it on. But if not done this way it WILL leak at some point.

Thank you for your input in this, then 3M will be.

 

[sjpitts]

I have seen this one recommended---- it says medium viscosity. So maybe that is OK?

 

[ehouli]

I have seen this one recommended---- it says medium viscosity. So maybe that is OK?

View attachment 2815274

As far as I've spoken with the installers they explained that when 80 series came out of the assembly line, they used butyl which doesn't dry hard, it keeps a sticky consistency or dries just as rubber.

BTW checking in the sun my windshield I found the urethane wasn't applied well last time and you can see sand between the urethane and the gasket, the last time I drove near the beach, that's on driver's side, probably in passenger side is also another section that the product wasn't applied well. For now I will avoid driving in the rain while the 3M products arrives at my hands.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

The urethane shouldn't be showing. It goes between the glass and the gasket and all outside the gasket should be removed.

 

[sjpitts]

When I do a search on amazon for CM 08509 this is what shows up. The photo says 8609 and it says urethane.

 

[sjpitts]

I did find 08509 on ebay

 

[sjpitts]

So to clarify-- because I am not sure I followed the recommendations in this thread---- of those three options--- 08693, 08609 and 08509, which should I be using to try and stop a current leak? Which should the installer use if you do a new install with a new gasket?

 

[ehouli]

So to clarify-- because I am not sure I followed the recommendations in this thread---- of those three options--- 08693, 08609 and 08509, which should I be using to try and stop a current leak? Which should the installer use if you do a new install with a new gasket?

In amazon the picture is the wrong one, so far the 3M 08509 is the one closer to what butyl is. This product is one of the preferred for Classic Cars restorations like 60s mustangs, old Ford and Chevy pickup trucks.

Some need adhesive between the gastket and the windshield, some not, while others need adhesive on the outside lips, so our 80 series need adhesive in all places.

Here the windshield is being glued to the weatherstrip:

This is a very interesting comment from someone: "Don’t listen to that complainer— the 3M bedding and glazing compound is mac daddy. Yes, it gets everywhere. Yes, it’s a pain to clean up. But it seals correctly and stays pliable for-basically-ever so that as the glass expands and contracts in the dissimilar weatherstrip it’ll continue to hold a good seal. It’s as good or better than what the factory used, it’s the right stuff."

 

[DivByZero]

Thanks for this info, actually "Threecement" is the bad translation for "Threebond" the manufacturer of both products, a Japanese company. Probably its a butyl based product that's no longer recommended for ecological or other reasons.

The Drive Joy product shown as a Synthetic rubber adhesive, appears to be the equivalent of the 3M auto bedding and glazing product that is described the same way.

Not to labour the point, but I think you're wrong about this. "Threebond" is indeed an OEM supplier of various adhesives used by Toyota. Lots of them. They don't get their name wrong in SST sheets. Especially not every single SST sheet ever. Much less side by side on the exact same sheet of paper:

Now consider that "three cement black" is a product, also produced in japan under that exact name, with that exact name in english printed on their tubes, which I referenced, and that product is listed as an adhesive used for automotive windscreens, and according to Google translate from some Japanese sites, listed as an OEM product used by Toyota:

Really think I've got this one right.

All that said, going back to the SST sheets, "or equivalent" are the key words here. There are probably hundreds of products out there that would be a suitable replacement. I'm sure numerous ones mentioned in this thread would work out just fine. I wouldn't want people thinking black Threebond RTV liquid gasket (1207B) is one of them though.

 

[sjpitts]

I did some more searching and found that in the automotive products catalog that 08509 is referred to as a "windscreen sealer" and not as a bedding compound. So maybe 3M is confusing us by using the same numbers on different products. Or selling the same product with different names to different markets. Anyway, here is the catalog listing for that-- it sounds right to me. But I am not sure where to buy it.

3M auto products catalog

EDIT-- I just realized that this is the UK catalog.

 

[sjpitts]

Not to labour the point, but I think you're wrong about this. "Threebond" is indeed an OEM supplier of various adhesives used by Toyota. Lots of them. They don't get their name wrong in SST sheets. Especially not every single SST sheet ever. Much less side by side on the exact same sheet of paper:


Now consider that "three cement black" is a product, also produced in japan under that exact name, with that exact name in english printed on their tubes, which I referenced, and that product is listed as an adhesive used for automotive windscreens, and according to Google translate from some Japanese sites, listed as an OEM product used by Toyota:

Really think I've got this one right.

All that said, going back to the SST sheets, "or equivalent" are the key words here. There are probably hundreds of products out there that would be a suitable replacement. I'm sure numerous ones mentioned in this thread would work out just fine. I wouldn't want people thinking black Threebond RTV liquid gasket (1207B) is one of them though.

Nemesis-- I think you make a good point. But if we can't find anything that says "three cement black" for sale, what would you use?

 

[WarDamnEagle]

I did some more searching and found that in the automotive products catalog that 08509 is referred to as a "windscreen sealer" and not as a bedding compound. So maybe 3M is confusing us by using the same numbers on different products. Or selling the same product with different names to different markets. Anyway, here is the catalog listing for that-- it sounds right to me. But I am not sure where to buy it.

3M auto products catalog

EDIT-- I just realized that this is the UK catalog.

3M assigns a different number to different sizes of of the same product. For example, 08693, 08695, and 08565 are the same product in different size tubes. I appreciate that's not exactly what you were asking so just FYI.

 

[ehouli]

Not to labour the point, but I think you're wrong about this. "Threebond" is indeed an OEM supplier of various adhesives used by Toyota. Lots of them. They don't get their name wrong in SST sheets. Especially not every single SST sheet ever. Much less side by side on the exact same sheet of paper:
View attachment 2816014

Now consider that "three cement black" is a product, also produced in japan under that exact name, with that exact name in english printed on their tubes, which I referenced, and that product is listed as an adhesive used for automotive windscreens, and according to Google translate from some Japanese sites, listed as an OEM product used by Toyota:
View attachment 2816015
Really think I've got this one right.

All that said, going back to the SST sheets, "or equivalent" are the key words here. There are probably hundreds of products out there that would be a suitable replacement. I'm sure numerous ones mentioned in this thread would work out just fine. I wouldn't want people thinking black Threebond RTV liquid gasket (1207B) is one of them though.

No problem, thanks for clarifying this point, as I thought it was a bad translation somewhere.

I did find the Third product shown on the SST on the net. Comes in a box with a two little bottles, one of them is Primer and other couldn't find what it is, applicators for the primer and a piece of wire, not cheap, in ebay goes up to almost $60.

Also found the datasheet for the 3M Auto Bedding and Glazing product which goes along the instructions for Windshield installation given by Toyota.

 

[sjpitts]

Alright, this thread has prompted me to want to fix my leak--- so I think I am going to order some 3M 08509 windscreen sealer/bedding compound off ebay and give it a go. That does seem to be consensus over the 3M 08609 urethane, right?

At least based on the description in the UK catalog and the 3M data sheet that ehouli found, that seems to be the most logical choice of what is available.