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a lot more frame height above the front axle on a actual 105, allowing some uptravel at stock ride
UZJ100 to UZJ105: SAS build
- Thread starter UZJ105
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a lot more frame height above the front axle on a actual 105, allowing some uptravel at stock ride
What is the Difference: Land Cruiser 100 vs. 105 – MODIFIND
www.modifind.com
The rear suspensions of both the 100 and 105 series are the familiar 5 link design, utilising upper and lower control arms, panhard rod, coil springs and shock absorbers although the geometry is quite different. The 105 series also retains the traditional Cruiser full floating rear axle shafts whereas the 100 series utilises the semi-floating rear axle design.
1998 Toyota Land Cruiser 100 series
www.topspeed.com
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Both the pitman are and 105 sector shaft are the same as the 80 other than the larger diameter spline.
My guess is your buddies pitman arm is off center by a tooth so it looks like it is traveling further in one direction than the other. Steering travel/throw is dictated by the steering stops on the knuckles, not the box. 80's and 105's use the same knuckles, so steering is limited to something like 38 degrees.
With the 80 series sector shaft you can use a mini truck pitman arm and there is no uniformity in aftermarket offerings, so you can get longer or shorter arms to speed up or slow down steering speed and decrease or increase force for the same input. On mini truck rock crawlers, I ran a shorter than stock pitman arm that increased leverage and reduced stress on the sector shaft. The same is true with aftermarket high steer arms for mini trucks, and geometry changes quickly when you start changing the relationship between the pitman arm and steering arm length. All 3 of the 80/105 series high steer arms that I know of retain stock geometry and to my knowledge there is only one pitman arm offering for the 105 sector shaft.
What about running a f150 box or some kind of saginaw box?
There are a lot of differences between a 100 and 105 and they vary greatly depending on what market the 100 or 105 was sold in. Another thing not mentioned above is a vacuum brake booster instead of the ebooster.
If you want a solid axle 100 series, the number one thing to keep in mind is that any market a 105 was sold in actually uses their trucks as trucks. Here in the us they were expensive luxury vehicles that rarely if ever left pavement, but in other markets it is likely the opposite. Here it is easy to find a rust free creampuff, not so much in any market 105's were sold in.
Another thing to consider against importing a 105 - but I don't want to derail this thread too bad here- solid axle swapping a 100 gives you a chance to correct the design deficiencies of a lifted 105. You can run a 3 link front, dual rate coilovers instead of coil springs, increase travel, fix the panhard to drag link relationship problem, run whatever front axle you want - plus you get a V8. The hard part of this is retaining uptravel without a sky high ride height. I moved my engine/trans, built new motor mounts and am running a few non-100 parts on my 2uz to make room for proper up travel. Its a ton of work, and I don't suggest you do it unless you understand 3 link geometry and how it relates to real world road feel combined with whatever off road performance you desire. I also don't suggest this route for someone who wants to daily drive a solid axle 100 series either, as the old saying goes - race car parts make race car noises. My LX has quite a few race car parts on it and I expect it to make quite a few race car noises.
A stock 105 is essentially an 80 frame with a 100 body, but I hate the way my 3.5" lifted 80 drives - and it is the best driving 80 I have ever been in. After my LX is done, the 80 is going to get the same suspension front and rear as the LX. I have built a lot of toyotas over the years, so what I want out of my truck is probably in the .01% category of what most people would want out of a 100 series. Therefore, do take my application into account when you hear me talk about the what I think is the "right" way to build a solid axle 100.
For what @raanderson77 wants out of his truck, I bet he will be thrilled with his truck when done and happier in the end than if he waited to import a 105.
If you want a solid axle 100 series, the number one thing to keep in mind is that any market a 105 was sold in actually uses their trucks as trucks. Here in the us they were expensive luxury vehicles that rarely if ever left pavement, but in other markets it is likely the opposite. Here it is easy to find a rust free creampuff, not so much in any market 105's were sold in.
Another thing to consider against importing a 105 - but I don't want to derail this thread too bad here- solid axle swapping a 100 gives you a chance to correct the design deficiencies of a lifted 105. You can run a 3 link front, dual rate coilovers instead of coil springs, increase travel, fix the panhard to drag link relationship problem, run whatever front axle you want - plus you get a V8. The hard part of this is retaining uptravel without a sky high ride height. I moved my engine/trans, built new motor mounts and am running a few non-100 parts on my 2uz to make room for proper up travel. Its a ton of work, and I don't suggest you do it unless you understand 3 link geometry and how it relates to real world road feel combined with whatever off road performance you desire. I also don't suggest this route for someone who wants to daily drive a solid axle 100 series either, as the old saying goes - race car parts make race car noises. My LX has quite a few race car parts on it and I expect it to make quite a few race car noises.
A stock 105 is essentially an 80 frame with a 100 body, but I hate the way my 3.5" lifted 80 drives - and it is the best driving 80 I have ever been in. After my LX is done, the 80 is going to get the same suspension front and rear as the LX. I have built a lot of toyotas over the years, so what I want out of my truck is probably in the .01% category of what most people would want out of a 100 series. Therefore, do take my application into account when you hear me talk about the what I think is the "right" way to build a solid axle 100.
For what @raanderson77 wants out of his truck, I bet he will be thrilled with his truck when done and happier in the end than if he waited to import a 105.
I looked into the super duty box and a few GM options on my build, but decided to stay all toyota. There is not enough room on 100's to run an inside the frame steering box (ac compressor is in the way). A mini truck box would be easier to package than an 80/105 box due to being a rear swing, but 3 mounting bolts and no pitman arm upgrade ruled that out.
- Thread starter
- #47
I went back and forth on this with my friends that will be doing the technical work. I considered 3-link for all of the capability reasons you listed, but in the end decided to go the 80 radius arm route for predictability and better road manners. I want a truck that can wheel hard, but drive from NC to somewhere like Moab with minimal fuss. I will most certainly be jealous of any 3-link 100 SAS I see, but think the Trail Tailor kit was the right call for my purposes. I am also having to show some restraint in wanting to go with 37s over 35s, for the same reasons.
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I'm actually doing a 3 link over radius arms for the same reasons you listed. A properly designed 3 link handles far better on and off road and can be more predictable and stable than an 80 or 105 radius arm setup. Most people think a 3 link is as simple as attaching links where they will fit, then they are disappointed when their truck drives horrible on road and is not much better than leaf springs on the rocks - but it flexes and looks cool, so they think it is a success.
My last 4runner drove and handled better on 37's with a 3 link front than my IFS 100 with icon 2.5's on 34's or my wife's v8 4runner on 33's does. I'm crazy about making trucks handle well, and I bet both of those IFS trucks I mentioned handle better than most because I make the alignment shop align it to my specs rather than toyotas. My 87 4runner was a 1 finger on the steering wheel at 80mph truck and it didn't nose dive when braking or unload on climbs, stayed flat in corners with no sway bars and it was night and day more stable than my 80 with giant sway bars.
In suspension, geometry is everything. Compromises and geometry don't mix well - especially in the case of a 3 link where you have 5 links all moving independently of one another as the suspension cycles.
Every 3 link is a compromise, but you can sacrifice in one area to improve another area. There is a fine line where all on road characteristics are as good as a truck with a high COG can be, and they still work decent on climbs/descents offroad (better than a non link suspension but less good than a purpose built slow speed rock buggy suspension). Plus, they don't bind like a radius arm, so you end up on 3 wheels way less often.
A radius arm is a compromise with no chance not to be. But, packaging is easy and they are reliable when built right- tried and true - they just aren't good at anything - but they are ok-ish (lets say tolerable) overall. I will say I would rather have an 80/105 radius arm setup than a poorly designed 3 link 100 times over.
Compromises in a 3 link can be extremely dangerous. Not enough link separation and you will rip brackets off of the axle. 300% anti dive and the front end stiffens up so much when you are on the brakes that you cant soak up bumps. Heading into a turn, its good and stable until you let off of the brakes and the front end dives under cornering load, which will dig your outside front tire in and flip you in a hurry. -100% anti dive and you will be driving around like cheech and chong every time you are on and off of the gas. Plus, it will drive terrible on road. Throw some high under or oversteer numbers in there and the truck will handle like a malnutritioned donkey and not be fit for pavement. There is a lot more geometry that comes into play than that but the most important one that you never hear anything about is force vectors. I wont get started on that, but google it if you don't already know.
By the way, 80's have a ton of anti dive and a good amount of understeer, this is a contributing factor to why you see so many mid to high speed rolls destroying my favorite cruisers. The higher you lift, the higher the anti dive number and COG climbs and the worse it behaves in corners or while under load from braking.
The biggest problem with a 3 link designed for good road manners on a 100 is upper link clearance. you have to get rid of the stock motor mount just to have minimum acceptable link separation (with lower links mounted at axle center line) for 37's and decent uptravel. The next thing is you have to move the motor up and back to get close to good uptravel. I did both, plus I had to take a 2" chunk out of the frame (not shown in these pictures) for panhard and drag link clearance. For the geometry I desire, My lower links are mounted 2" above axle center line, so that really throws a wrench in the works. These few things, plus packaging coilovers to keep reasonably stable angles (one benefit of a coilover over coil spring) and get the full 14" of travel is not easy.
So, the simple answer is: its complicated. Complicated and difficult, and trial and error is expensive time consuming plus you might die or kill someone if don't know what you're doing. Every truck is different and center of gravity, weight distribution, ride height, tire size etc all play important roles in proper suspension design and have to be determined ahead of time to do it close to right.
Hopefully that reaffirms your choice
If you were building an 80, you could avoid having to know all of this and just buy a 3 link kit from Brian at 4wheelundergound.
Here are a few pictures of my 3 link during the build
I am sensing a theme. Rocking it with his ax(le).
Sparks are flying.
Deep in thought with minimal supervision. Thank you guys for allowing me to bystand.
- Thread starter
- #54
Got most of the Trial Tailor Kit installed and the 80 axle under the truck this weekend. Pulled the front and rear 3rds to drop off at East Coast Gear this week for re-gearing. All the credit goes to @AJR @GLTHFJ60 & @IcutYourCruiser. They figured out placement and did all of the welding. Without these guys, a SAS would have just been a wish.
- Thread starter
- #55
Its way above actual ride height on jack stands, but we stuck a 37" under it just for fun. Still not sure what size tire i'm going to run, but I do know a 37 is sexy.
*those are 295/75/16 in the rear.
*those are 295/75/16 in the rear.
- Thread starter
- #56
Still a long to-do list
- Thread starter
- #57
40s or nah? 
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- Thread starter
- #58
Worked all weekend chipping away at it little by little. Finished grinding the remaining IFS factory welds on the inside of the frame. Primed and painted some sections of the Trail Tailor kit. @AJR welded on the steering box reinforcement plates and helped me remove the cover of the t-case for the Marlin Crawler part-time kit.
? I have acquired the test mule for the trail tailor sas kit. Front wheel Spacers, will the 2.5" spacer clear the lockout hub nuts and not need machining of the outer lip? The 2" spacer apparently does.
They'll clear.
