Builds Uglina is Back Thread ('78 Mustard FJ40) (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter TEQ
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TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #183
I am getting so close to getting this front end back together I can taste it! And it tastes like de-greaser dripping on me as I clean the face of my front 3rd member in preparation for some FIPG and a gasket!
In typical noob fashion I was walking up the hill to my garage going over in my head how I was going to get the right side knuckle done tonight. I suddenly realized that if I did it as planned I would soon find that I would have a very difficult time getting my front 3rd member on... Duh. I could have put my front 3rd on way back when I put the rear on... WTF was I waiting for?
So anyway, I get on my back, clean the faces real well (dripping the aformentioned de-greaser), apply a super thin layer of FIPG, put on my paper gasket and heft the 3rd into place. A few turns of a socket wrench followed by appropriate applicaiton of torque (35lb/ft according to Haynes...suprisingly the FSM doesn't seem to specify the torque for this anywhere I could find) and a major part of the vehicle is back on it!!! An upgrade too! (3.73 diffs).
Then I set about my knuckles. But I remembered I hadn't installed my new studs in my hubs yet. That took a fair amount of time and it's time to go nitey-nite. So I went over all my instructions and parts one more time and I'm now 100% sure that next time I have a few hours I will have at least one of my front hubs/knuckles back together!
In typical noob fashion I was walking up the hill to my garage going over in my head how I was going to get the right side knuckle done tonight. I suddenly realized that if I did it as planned I would soon find that I would have a very difficult time getting my front 3rd member on... Duh. I could have put my front 3rd on way back when I put the rear on... WTF was I waiting for?
So anyway, I get on my back, clean the faces real well (dripping the aformentioned de-greaser), apply a super thin layer of FIPG, put on my paper gasket and heft the 3rd into place. A few turns of a socket wrench followed by appropriate applicaiton of torque (35lb/ft according to Haynes...suprisingly the FSM doesn't seem to specify the torque for this anywhere I could find) and a major part of the vehicle is back on it!!! An upgrade too! (3.73 diffs).
Then I set about my knuckles. But I remembered I hadn't installed my new studs in my hubs yet. That took a fair amount of time and it's time to go nitey-nite. So I went over all my instructions and parts one more time and I'm now 100% sure that next time I have a few hours I will have at least one of my front hubs/knuckles back together!
TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #184
Got the right knuckle on.
Question: The FSM says the bearing pre-load on the knuckle should be between 4 and 8 lbs. After torquing the bearing cap bolts to about 75 ft/lbs my new fish scale indicates a pre-load of only about 2.5 lbs.
My Haynes manual says that if the bearing pre-load is less than 3.9lbs I should add an equal amount of shim top and bottom to get it w/in spec or I will get excessive wear and shake during cornering.
Does this jive with everyone? My rebuild kit came with additional shims... should i take the trouble of taking the caps off again and putting the shims in?
Question: The FSM says the bearing pre-load on the knuckle should be between 4 and 8 lbs. After torquing the bearing cap bolts to about 75 ft/lbs my new fish scale indicates a pre-load of only about 2.5 lbs.
My Haynes manual says that if the bearing pre-load is less than 3.9lbs I should add an equal amount of shim top and bottom to get it w/in spec or I will get excessive wear and shake during cornering.
Does this jive with everyone? My rebuild kit came with additional shims... should i take the trouble of taking the caps off again and putting the shims in?
TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #185
TEQ said:
Reading elsewhere (https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=1032753 I see that Poser says that the shims work as follows:
Top: used to adjust pre-load
Bottom: used to adjust alignment of the knuckle with the axle centerline.
This conflicts with the Haynes manual which says "If necessary, bearing preload can be adjusted by ading orsubtracking the same amont of shims from both the upper and lower knuckle bearings."
And thinking about it more it is not clear to me whether I should be ADDING or REMOVING shims. Instinctively it seems like adding shims would REDUCE pre-load because the bearing cap would not be inserted as far into the bearing.
I'm gong to start on my left knuckle now...hopefully someone can provide me with some definitive answers before I get too far...
TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #186
More data:
There are currently two top shims @ 1mm and .5mm (total 1.5mm)
I am assuming I need to remove some thickness to increase preload.
If I'm currently at 2.5 lbs of pre-load and I need to get between 4 and 8 lbs, how much shim should I remove? .5mm? 1mm?
I have a few extra new cone washers (they get mucked up pretty good when I remove them and I ordered too many) so experimenting is not out of the question, but I'd rather get it right the first time... anyone with experience in this area?
There are currently two top shims @ 1mm and .5mm (total 1.5mm)
I am assuming I need to remove some thickness to increase preload.
If I'm currently at 2.5 lbs of pre-load and I need to get between 4 and 8 lbs, how much shim should I remove? .5mm? 1mm?
I have a few extra new cone washers (they get mucked up pretty good when I remove them and I ordered too many) so experimenting is not out of the question, but I'd rather get it right the first time... anyone with experience in this area?
If you can't get the proper pre-load using the shims that you removed (assuming you kept them segregated and re-installed them in the same locations from which they were removed), you may have to use the SST knuckle alignment tool. That'll get your knuckle centered and pre-loaded.
I would say that since you're re-installing the knuckles on the same axle housings they came off of you could probably achieve a similar result to the SST method by adding/removing shims equally on the top and bottom. However, from your other posts, it looks like CCOT took some liberties with the restoration of this truck; i.e. those might not be the same knuckles that Toyota put on that axle housing.
Re: The molybdenum disulphide grease question on the previous page: Molybdenum disulphide grease has some different properties than high-speed wheel bearing grease. Wheel bearing grease goes in the HUB, moly grease goes in the KNUCKLE (including the birf joint). That said, however, I doubt that it'd really hurt anything if you packed the birf and knuckle with wheel bearing grease instead of moly . . .
I would say that since you're re-installing the knuckles on the same axle housings they came off of you could probably achieve a similar result to the SST method by adding/removing shims equally on the top and bottom. However, from your other posts, it looks like CCOT took some liberties with the restoration of this truck; i.e. those might not be the same knuckles that Toyota put on that axle housing.
Re: The molybdenum disulphide grease question on the previous page: Molybdenum disulphide grease has some different properties than high-speed wheel bearing grease. Wheel bearing grease goes in the HUB, moly grease goes in the KNUCKLE (including the birf joint). That said, however, I doubt that it'd really hurt anything if you packed the birf and knuckle with wheel bearing grease instead of moly . . .
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TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #188
I went ahead and removed .5mm worth of shim from the top, torqued it down and...
~8lbs of pre-load. Perfect!
I am just going to assume that the bottom shims created the correct placement relative to the axle centerline and at worst my removing .5mm from the top at worst moved the centerline up .25mm. If CCOT fxxxed up and the alignment was off before I took it apart it's not going to be any worse now (and I have no reason to believe it they did it incorrectly). Without a SST there's nothing more I could do and I can't wait to find someone local who has one I can borrow.
I also went and bought some moly fortified grease and cleaned the little bit of high-temp grease I had put on the bearings off (very carefully to get it all because i know mixing grease is a bad idea).
The left side, with the same set of shims that were on it originally, came out with a pre-load of just above 4lbs. I'm going to call it good too....
While torquing the left side one of the (new!) studs on the bottom stripped. Son of a bitch!
Thankfully I was able to back it out while in place and had another spare... I backed off my torque a bit (I was doing 74lb/ft) when I put it back on. The FSM says 62-79 lb/ft. I guess in the future I'll go for the lower end of what Toyota recommends vs. the higher end...
On to the hubs...
~8lbs of pre-load. Perfect!
I am just going to assume that the bottom shims created the correct placement relative to the axle centerline and at worst my removing .5mm from the top at worst moved the centerline up .25mm. If CCOT fxxxed up and the alignment was off before I took it apart it's not going to be any worse now (and I have no reason to believe it they did it incorrectly). Without a SST there's nothing more I could do and I can't wait to find someone local who has one I can borrow.
I also went and bought some moly fortified grease and cleaned the little bit of high-temp grease I had put on the bearings off (very carefully to get it all because i know mixing grease is a bad idea).
The left side, with the same set of shims that were on it originally, came out with a pre-load of just above 4lbs. I'm going to call it good too....
While torquing the left side one of the (new!) studs on the bottom stripped. Son of a bitch!
Thankfully I was able to back it out while in place and had another spare... I backed off my torque a bit (I was doing 74lb/ft) when I put it back on. The FSM says 62-79 lb/ft. I guess in the future I'll go for the lower end of what Toyota recommends vs. the higher end...
On to the hubs...
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I am not perfect here by any means but i like other people think that your pump is off a 60. I rebuilt mine a few years ago and it looked almost exactly like that. The only difference i see is the one hose fitting part.
TEQ said:
That is only 20 ft-lbs OVER what the Toyota FSM states is the torque for the 11mm stud, drum brake and pre 1979 disc housings have 11mm studs...(43-54 ft-lb)
12mm studs are 62-79 ft-lbs.....those are found on 1979 and later 40/55/60 and mini trucks...
A fastener that is over-torqued has been stretched beyond the designed service parameters, and as you found out, can fail.
I would back them all off, check the condition of the threads on the studs and nuts, replace anything that looks even a bit marginal and then install them with the proper torque setting, and red locktite on all studs and nuts…..but that is just me.
Who knows, you might be fine for a long time with them that way.
I would back them all off, check the condition of the threads on the studs and nuts, replace anything that looks even a bit marginal and then install them with the proper torque setting, and red locktite on all studs and nuts…..but that is just me.
Who knows, you might be fine for a long time with them that way.
TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #193
Poser said:
Thanks Poser. I feel like an idiot. Sigh.;p
The good news is I accidentally ordered twice as many 11mm nuts, washers, & studs as I needed by accident. I also have a tube of locktite red here.
I pulled a bunch of nuts off and they don't look bad. I'm going to replace several of the studs that I didn't originally replace and all of the nuts. I will also use locktite red as you advice.
TEQ
Tigger
- Thread starter
- #195
My right hub is DONE!
After my over-torquing escipade I grabbed my right axle and realized it was packed with the high-temp grease....arrrgg...I pulled it apart (Bull told me to order an extra set of snap clips...I'm glad I listened) and re-packed it with the moly grease.
Getting the inner shaft into the birf is a PITA. The snap ring is really tough to get just right and when I did it before I was able to get my son to help me. But it was too late at night and I was all alone this time. So i got creative. The hard part is being able to provide enough downward force on the shaft while using a screwdriver to finagle the clip into the slot. I discovered that by draping a shop rag over the end of the axle shaft i could get the leverage I needed. The pic below shows how I did this. Useful tip for someone else attepting this?
Then I stuffed the axle into the axle housing, got the spines to seat in the differential, and packed the knuckle with grease (filling it 3/4 of the volume per the FSM).
Getting the gasket, brake shield, and outer oil seal on was a bit tricky... the axle shaft kept wanting to point down and everything would slide off... I needed 3 hands! I discoverd that if I stuck a flat blade screw dirver inbetween the axle shaft and the spindle I could get everything to stay put long enough for me to get all the holes lined up and the first bolt in. From there it was easy.
At first I didn't know which way the flanges on the inner oil seal covers went, but once I started it became obvious.
The right side is basically done. I've got to get the brake caliper back on and the brake lines hooked up but the most important thing is I can easily get a wheel on here so I can roll the rig out of the garage next weekend so we can paint. Tomorrow I'll tackle the left hub...it should go much quicker.
Look at them shiny new warn hubs...
After my over-torquing escipade I grabbed my right axle and realized it was packed with the high-temp grease....arrrgg...I pulled it apart (Bull told me to order an extra set of snap clips...I'm glad I listened) and re-packed it with the moly grease.
Getting the inner shaft into the birf is a PITA. The snap ring is really tough to get just right and when I did it before I was able to get my son to help me. But it was too late at night and I was all alone this time. So i got creative. The hard part is being able to provide enough downward force on the shaft while using a screwdriver to finagle the clip into the slot. I discovered that by draping a shop rag over the end of the axle shaft i could get the leverage I needed. The pic below shows how I did this. Useful tip for someone else attepting this?
Then I stuffed the axle into the axle housing, got the spines to seat in the differential, and packed the knuckle with grease (filling it 3/4 of the volume per the FSM).
Getting the gasket, brake shield, and outer oil seal on was a bit tricky... the axle shaft kept wanting to point down and everything would slide off... I needed 3 hands! I discoverd that if I stuck a flat blade screw dirver inbetween the axle shaft and the spindle I could get everything to stay put long enough for me to get all the holes lined up and the first bolt in. From there it was easy.
At first I didn't know which way the flanges on the inner oil seal covers went, but once I started it became obvious.
The right side is basically done. I've got to get the brake caliper back on and the brake lines hooked up but the most important thing is I can easily get a wheel on here so I can roll the rig out of the garage next weekend so we can paint. Tomorrow I'll tackle the left hub...it should go much quicker.
Look at them shiny new warn hubs...
