Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (3 Viewers)

[linuxgod]

@TeCKis300 thats interesting. I’m not convinced, but perhaps I need to digest it further to really understand. What is the left column?

I know my gearing isn’t ideal but I pretty much run in the 2700-3200 rpm range in 4th gear depending on the speed, so I’m surprised the A/F mixture would have that big an impact. On my long (non-towing) trip out east I got 13.5mpg and found in Ohio and PA that 5th gear was marginally better fuel economy for me than 6th.

When towing it feels like a slight grade at a couple thousand feet of elevation and headwind (or crosswind) are the primary culprits of noticable lack of power from the 5.7 and poor mileage for me, though I’ve long suspected marginal quality fuel since I have zero issue making gobs of power pretty much anywhere in Illinois, Indiana, or Wisconsin when it’s flat

 

[TeCKis300]

The y-axis is "load" without units, from low at the top to high at the bottom. It's a computed value by the ECU, that is a composite of multiple variables including gas pedal position, mass airflow (MAF) reading from the intake, and others. Basically, it's how much oomph your asking of the motor. This map is for a completely different motor. Look at the trends rather than specific values.

The takeaway is that the motor is most efficient when relatively lightly loaded. Higher gas pedal positions requires more fuel per unit of energy made. The engine is actually more efficient (to a degree) with more rpm and lighter load.

In your example of it wanting to downshift to 3rd...That's where the motor is highly loaded at low rpm in 4th, and can't meet the demanded output. So it may be better to let it shift down to 3rd where it's at a higher rpm, but lower load point.

 

[linuxgod]

The y-axis is "load" without units, from low at the top to high at the bottom...In your example of it wanting to downshift to 3rd...That's where the motor is highly loaded at low rpm in 4th, and can't meet the demanded output. So it may be better to let it shift down to 3rd where it's at a higher rpm, but lower load point.

Ah ok that makes more sense. It definitely explains why I get better gas mileage in 5th gear than in 6th now, something I intuitively felt (I'm "dumping" fuel into the truck in a higher gear vs being light on the throttle in lower gear) but couldn't objectively explain.

 

[Romer]

I finally had time to go through the full 18 pages in this thread. Great discussion I only read the Tire psi questions whn I posted a month ago.

Nice write-up on how to do the airbags and great discussion on other trailers and options. I have added this to the FAQ

I don't have anywhere as luxurious a travel trailer as you guys do. That is real comfort, like an apartment on wheels

I want to be able to take my camper to more than just campgrounds. I had a Jayco Baja pop up which was great when the kids were young. After two years being exposed to the elements sitting next to my garage really took atoll on it and it started to fall apart. I bought an AT trailer which was too small, uncomfortable and also did not hold up well. I was lucky enough to find a Kimberley Kamper which was 9 years old at the time. It still looked like new. After 5 years of owning it it hadnt aged at all. I did keep it in the garage though. The IFS suspension and built for the aussie bush handled well on and off road and didnt fall apart as my Jayco did on forest roads.

My criteria became two things. First I needed to be able to park it inside as I want my next one to last through retirement (11 years off at that time in 15) and it had to be aussie so it would hold up

I bought a 2016 Kimberley Karavan and had it imported from Australia, they had an import license so it was easy. There is a forum like this, mostly aussie's that has been awesome. Especially now that after the owners divorce Kimberley appears to be in liquidation. This is a cool off road trailer built for the bush. The other owners in Oz take it out for months at a time. The solar keeps the trailer going and you just need to ensure you have places to fill up on water

I have the heavy springs on my truck and tow over the mountains a lot with no issues. It starts swaying above 80 mph, I know why am I towing at 80 mph? because I can

In any case here are the specs since that is the point of this thread. Total Karavan Weight limit (ATM) is 2200kg or 4800 pounds. Probably closer to 5200- 5400 pounds with two tanks full of water and my gear

The attached file goes into some discussion from the Karavan forum on weight and effect on tow ball. I can't use a weight distribution hitch on my setup. The extended drawbar does help with control

I should note I also have a heavy back end with storage drawers with tools, 2 spare tires and an aux LRA fuel tank

This uses an offroad Treg Hitch system

whats nice is when camped you open a back panel and press the winch button and the top goes up. Then you slide the bed out . It has an inside and outside kitchen.

The shower is a bit tight as you have to straddle the toilet

Not as comfy as yours, but it does fit in the garage and go places other campers can't

This is a friends who has the same unit. I haven't had a chance to take mine far off road. I do plan on doing that on the way to Cruiserfest next month

It does track very well as it has the same width as my 200 with 31" BFG AT KO's. Disc Brakes, IFS suspension, I got the optional sway bar. Not always needed in the bush and again the extended draw bar helps with handling likely lowering the ball weight

Finally I did change out the jockey for the XO Jockey from Australia. Off-Road HD 1650lbs Trailer Jack - The XO Trailer Jack

I think the reason this tows well for me is

• It's heavy, bit not as heavy as your 27-30 ft trailers
• The large water tank is behind the axle and the second water tank is above the axle
• The extended draw bar
• The IFS suspension I am sure really helps here as well

 

[Romer]

I should also note the Karavan was the main reason I got the 200. The 100 was lugging up the mtn passes at 45MPH and so I went for the 5.7

 

[TeCKis300]

I finally had time to go through the full 18 pages in this thread. Great discussion I only read the Tire psi questions whn I posted a month ago.

Nice write-up on how to do the airbags and great discussion on other trailers and options. I have added this to the FAQ

I don't have anywhere as luxurious a travel trailer as you guys do. That is real comfort, like an apartment on wheels

I want to be able to take my camper to more than just campgrounds. I had a Jayco Baja pop up which was great when the kids were young. After two years being exposed to the elements sitting next to my garage really took atoll on it and it started to fall apart. I bought an AT trailer which was too small, uncomfortable and also did not hold up well. I was lucky enough to find a Kimberley Kamper which was 9 years old at the time. It still looked like new. After 5 years of owning it it hadnt aged at all. I did keep it in the garage though. The IFS suspension and built for the aussie bush handled well on and off road and didnt fall apart as my Jayco did on forest roads.

My criteria became two things. First I needed to be able to park it inside as I want my next one to last through retirement (11 years off at that time in 15) and it had to be aussie so it would hold up

I bought a 2016 Kimberley Karavan and had it imported from Australia, they had an import license so it was easy. There is a forum like this, mostly aussie's that has been awesome. Especially now that after the owners divorce Kimberley appears to be in liquidation. This is a cool off road trailer built for the bush. The other owners in Oz take it out for months at a time. The solar keeps the trailer going and you just need to ensure you have places to fill up on water

I have the heavy springs on my truck and tow over the mountains a lot with no issues. It starts swaying above 80 mph, I know why am I towing at 80 mph? because I can

In any case here are the specs since that is the point of this thread. Total Karavan Weight limit (ATM) is 2200kg or 4800 pounds. Probably closer to 5200- 5400 pounds with two tanks full of water and my gear

The attached file goes into some discussion from the Karavan forum on weight and effect on tow ball. I can't use a weight distribution hitch on my setup. The extended drawbar does help with control

I should note I also have a heavy back end with storage drawers with tools, 2 spare tires and an aux LRA fuel tank

Ultimate off-road setup indeed!

Almost every rig is a compromise walking a balance of virtues. Your setup keeps a lot of off-road capability, yet maximizes livable space with it's unique transformer abilities. Just awesome.

Sounds like your rig is plenty stable, but if you're ever interested, there's one major tweak you can do to raise that stable speed threshold. That draw bar of yours looks 4-5 inches longer than it needs to be. Shortening that shank will feel like the equivalent of increasing your wheelbase by 2x the actual change. Shortening it will reduce the leverage the trailer has on the tow vehicle which will improve all dynamic handling qualities, as well as reducing sway. As the ball downforce document supposes, it'll also reduce leveraged weight taken off the front axle and put on the already heavily loaded rear axle. I've done the same with my setup as an optimization.

 

[Romer]

Thanks for the input. Looking at the aussie Forum they claim it helps with more stable towing; reduces ball weight; greater clearance between vehicle and multi-box - for turning, and opening of rear doors. They didn't talk about the optimum length. They are as nerdy as we are and they typically dive down win something isnt optimum

I will study in more detail, but it is only some times over 80 when the road is in poor condition or its really windy. I did 85 from the Colorado border to the Moab turn off (56 miles) with no sway. Not really enough of an issue to cut 5 inches off of it

 

[TeCKis300]

Ah, I probably used the wrong term. Meant the ball mount/stinger/drop shank. Sometimes also know as hitch draw bar.

This part

 

[Romer]

That is the receiver that slides into the truck. Mine isnt extended. the connection for the Treg hitch is just past the bumper or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Dan Higgins]

Maybe @TeCKis300 is looking at the unique extended tongue of this trailer in your photos and thinking it is a draw or hitch bar when it is in fact the tongue of the trailer. From a side profile it looks like a really long hitch bar.

Looking more closely at your pictures it appears to me that the “joint” where the truck/trailer connection can articulate is actually fairly close to the truck. I also am wondering if it is in fact a ball and coupler. Maybe it is a different type of joint? Maybe something that is more appropriate for going off-road?

As for stability, it appears that your trailer is rather light compared to what some of us are towing. If the is any swaying it may be due to loading. It is always important to have the tongue weight be 10-15% of the total trailer weight. This front loading helps keep the front end and thereby the trailer from trying to do its own thing.

 

[Romer]

its a Treg hitch, no ball It is the black box at the end of the trailer draw bar. It articulates in 3 axis and also mounts to a custom flat plate on the truck bolted to a receiver

 

[electro992]

Sounds like your rig is plenty stable, but if you're ever interested, there's one major tweak you can do to raise that stable speed threshold. That draw bar of yours looks 4-5 inches longer than it needs to be. Shortening that shank will feel like the equivalent of increasing your wheelbase by 2x the actual change. Shortening it will reduce the leverage the trailer has on the tow vehicle which will improve all dynamic handling qualities, as well as reducing sway.

There is a Toyota part made for the integrated hitch on our trucks. Keeps the ball a little tighter to the bumper and gives some extra drop over a universal ball mount. Part number PT228-60084. Picked mine up on eBay for cheap.

 

[TeCKis300]

I'm now realizing your pic above is of your 100-series setup. So it may be that the Treg hitch joint is indeed right up against your vehicle receiver in the 200-series. In this photo, you can see that the vehicle side hitch shank is longer than it likely needs to be. Putting the articulation point farther out.

No questions that the trailer side long draw bar has advantages for all the reasons you listed. I'm only focused on the vehicle side. Sorry if I'm taking the discussion on a tangent as your setup is already more than usable.

As this is a tech forum, if I may belabor why the articulation point is such a critical dimension...

In towing, people often mention that a long wheelbase is desired. It's a simplification. The true critical dimension is actually the wheelbase to rear overhang ratio. Overhang being the distance defined by the rear axle to ball (treg).

One wants as long a wheelbase and as short a rear overhang as possible. This gives the front steering axle the most influence and control against the trailer. In the 200-series, the ratio is roughly 2 to 1. This means the front axle has a 2x more influence on directional stability over the trailer lateral movements.

For every 1" one can bring in the ball closer to the rear axle (bumper), will feel in stability as if your wheelbase grew by 2". Our cars have a relatively short 112.3" wheelbase. Bringing it 3" closer doesn't sound like much, but if you can bring in the articulation point by 3", your wheelbase will now feel like it's 112.3" + 6" = 118.3", which is pretty huge.

I've done this mod to my setup to maximize stability in towing my large 27' trailer.

 

[Romer]

Now I understand. I still use the same receiver so I will look into that. Maybe I should switch to the Toyota part number mentioned above

Good tip. Thanks !

 

[Romer]

There is a Toyota part made for the integrated hitch on our trucks. Keeps the ball a little tighter to the bumper and gives some extra drop over a universal ball mount. Part number PT228-60084. Picked mine up on eBay for cheap.

View attachment 1769909
View attachment 1769910

ebay is a great tip. Bought one for $45 with free shipping

 

[linuxgod]

I love your setup @Romer. When my kids are grown it'll be a tough call between something like a KK (if Kimberly isn't around anymore) and an RTT. The KK is great for overlanding. I don't have a garage but I do rent a parking space off an alley in the city near me, and 26' was about my limit to make the 90 degree turn without hitting the fence. The Lance was the best compromise of comfort, space, length, and quality.

With 3 kids, a full size TT (25' 8" from hitch to bumper) was really the only way we could do a significant amount of camping. We do a lot of short trips in the midwest in the summer, mostly leaving Friday afternoon and back on Sunday afternoon, with an occasional 3 day weekend. Everything is set up so we just throw food and clothes in the cruiser and hook up the trailer and go. (I say that, but sometimes we load bikes in the trailer and kayaks on the LC, which takes a while). Much faster than trying to fit all our camping gear in the truck though.

 

[linuxgod]

I'm now realizing your pic above is of your 100-series setup. So it may be that the Treg hitch joint is indeed right up against your vehicle receiver in the 200-series. In this photo, you can see that the vehicle side hitch shank is longer than it likely needs to be. Putting the articulation point farther out.

No questions that the trailer side long draw bar has advantages for all the reasons you listed. I'm only focused on the vehicle side. Sorry if I'm taking the discussion on a tangent as your setup is already more than usable.

As this is a tech forum, if I may belabor why the articulation point is such a critical dimension...

In towing, people often mention that a long wheelbase is desired. It's a simplification. The true critical dimension is actually the wheelbase to rear overhang ratio. Overhang being the distance defined by the rear axle to ball (treg).

One wants as long a wheelbase and as short a rear overhang as possible. This gives the front steering axle the most influence and control against the trailer. In the 200-series, the ratio is roughly 2 to 1. This means the front axle has a 2x more influence on directional stability over the trailer lateral movements.

For every 1" one can bring in the ball closer to the rear axle (bumper), will feel in stability as if your wheelbase grew by 2". Our cars have a relatively short 112.3" wheelbase. Bringing it 3" closer doesn't sound like much, but if you can bring in the articulation point by 3", your wheelbase will now feel like it's 112.3" + 6" = 118.3", which is pretty huge.

I've done this mod to my setup to maximize stability in towing my large 27' trailer.

I've considered doing this myself. The only reason for a longer draw bar is clearance for the tailgate to open, and I think I'd be OK if I shortened mine about 2".

Side note: clearance between the truck and the trailer jack is a concern of mine whenever I do a rear swing-out bumper. Wondering if any of you guys with Slee rears has hooked up a trailer and can still open the swing outs and trunk when you're hooked up?

 

[Romer]

I'm now realizing your pic above is of your 100-series setup. So it may be that the Treg hitch joint is indeed right up against your vehicle receiver in the 200-series. In this photo, you can see that the vehicle side hitch shank is longer than it likely needs to be. Putting the articulation point farther out.

View attachment 1769896

No questions that the trailer side long draw bar has advantages for all the reasons you listed. I'm only focused on the vehicle side. Sorry if I'm taking the discussion on a tangent as your setup is already more than usable.

As this is a tech forum, if I may belabor why the articulation point is such a critical dimension...

In towing, people often mention that a long wheelbase is desired. It's a simplification. The true critical dimension is actually the wheelbase to rear overhang ratio. Overhang being the distance defined by the rear axle to ball (treg).

One wants as long a wheelbase and as short a rear overhang as possible. This gives the front steering axle the most influence and control against the trailer. In the 200-series, the ratio is roughly 2 to 1. This means the front axle has a 2x more influence on directional stability over the trailer lateral movements.

For every 1" one can bring in the ball closer to the rear axle (bumper), will feel in stability as if your wheelbase grew by 2". Our cars have a relatively short 112.3" wheelbase. Bringing it 3" closer doesn't sound like much, but if you can bring in the articulation point by 3", your wheelbase will now feel like it's 112.3" + 6" = 118.3", which is pretty huge.

I've done this mod to my setup to maximize stability in towing my large 27' trailer.

I got the new receiver. It is just 2 inches shorter from the hitch pin to the ball so that should provide some improvement. I know I could drill a hole closer, but will go with this for now. Was towing fine before, just a little sway at very high speeds

 

[TeCKis300]

^Nice! Let us know if you feel any difference once on the road.

If you find you have more room to bring it in again, the hitch pin hole is a 5/8". With a nice sharp titanium bit and some WD40, it actually drills pretty easy even on a small press. Slow drill rpm is the trick to minimize heat.

Somewhat unrelated, but I'm currently fabbing a hitch receiver for my Airstream rear bumper. So I can add a bike carrier. Lots of hole drilling.

 

[coleAK]

I have this 2” adaptor for the bike rack on the back of mine.