Time to upgrade engine! (1 Viewer)

[FJ62 Jose]

Yes. Frequently.

When they realize the mistake typically they end up selling the truck on Bring a Trailer.

Can you please explain why owners regret the LS/vortec swap?

thanks. I’m solely asking because I’m considering the swap myself.

 

[The Machinist]

Can you please explain why owners regret the LS/vortec swap?

thanks. I’m solely asking because I’m considering the swap myself.

I'd imagine some of it is people that are not all that into cruisers to begin with that end up hating how slow they are stock, so they swap in the LS for the massive increase in power, only to realize that these truck are not that great at higher speeds. The LS/Vortec's are very nice engines that make a lot of power and are fairly reliable, BUT, in my opinion the way they drive changes the "character" of the truck. That change is probably exactly what most are looking for when they do these swaps; better overall power, better highway cruising, more efficient, etc.
With that said, after driving a handful of cruisers with different drivetrain combos, my preference is still firmly with a straight six. Land Cruisers drive like tractors, and that's what makes them interesting.

 

[WILLD420]

Can you please explain why owners regret the LS/vortec swap?

thanks. I’m solely asking because I’m considering the swap myself.

Sorry but this will be long.

Most people upgrade to a different engine expecting all the things that come with the OEM engine and the things that come with the OEM experience in the rig they got the engine from. Rarely does this ever happen. Even the Pro's often have huge problems with swaps. Everything from the smog nazi's vetoing you to unexplained driveability gremlins and one-off adapters that never really work as intended, either by leaking or failing regularly.

Short and simple in support of a swap... The OEM engines suck in landcruisers for the american roadways. Even the 80 series are not up to the task. Now, with that said, take them into their intended environment and they come into their own.

For example. Off road. The 2F motor is a beast from idle to 3K rpm for what it is. A 4.2 liter low compression, low revving torque monster. Inefficient compared to modern stuff but for it's time, it was pretty good for the intended purpose of lugging along below 3K rpm pulling an overbuild leaf sprung 40, 45, 55 or 60 series rig with boring reliability. A lot of the later issues were due to trying to get an ancient engine to pass emissions testing. Yes, coulda-woulda-shoulda, they should've redesigned it in the 70's to what the American inline 6 motors were, but they didn't. It lumbered along with 130 horsepower right up to the 88 model year when the 3FE came along. Yet another in a long line of putting lipstick on a pig and trying to get it to dance. Yes, you can add horsepower but everything is a compromise. You add more RPM capability and you lose low rpm chugging ability in many cases. Big tradeoff for an under-geared pig of a wagon.

Then, came the fuel injection change and Toyota's last effort to save the old F-motor lineage. The 3FE. Although it is a reliable engine that is light years better on-road than the 2F, it is still a pile once you get it on pavement compared to american engines of that era. Off-road, it's o.k. but nothing special, except for the ability to run in any position you can suck fuel out of the tank and the added reliability and longevity part of not having to deal with a carburetor trying to drink the new ethanol blended garbage we use now.

I will be the first to admit that although Toyota builds a pretty good engine that will run 2-300K miles without really having any huge issues compared to some of the other brands and they can be upgraded significantly. It's still a low compression pig suited to drinking low octane, unfinished fuel that will make a small block chevy ping and detonate it's guts out. Now that they are 30+ years old, they are haggard, if not upgraded, old, low compression, hard to get parts for, lumps of cast iron that willingly chug along doing their job but deliver crap fuel mileage and 4 cylinder horsepower; although they still crank out very usable torque for what they are. Quite simply, they do not fill the bill for anyone but a purist or someone who enjoys living life in the slow lane and stopping for gas every 10-13mpg divided into your tank capacity. With that said, one thing they all share in common, if baselined and take care of, they all run very reliably and are smooth in their power delivery. They won't light the tires up but they match the chassis capabilities pretty well and won't usually let you break too many parts in the drivetrain. Fuel economy is predictably abysmal and they have their issues but they will run on anything resembling gasoline and chug along under 700 rpm all day long without shuddering and stalling just don't expect to run the speed limit up any 6% grades.



Now, lets talk about why not to swap.

Once you start down the rabbit hole of more horsepower, you run out of cooling system, brakes and axle strength pretty quick. Yes, you can rectify these things but you begin losing the simplicity that you once had and you spend a lot of coin getting it done, especially if you aren't doing it yourself. Doesn't take much in the way of engine swaps to double the horsepower and almost double the torque of the factory motor. Yes, it runs good and driven responsibly, they will last but you get to engineer lots of things like air conditioning, fan shrouds, electrical systems etc. Then you upgrade the brakes (Should do this anyway) then on up and down stream, especially with bigger tires. There is also the problem that many of the parts that used to be readily available are no longer made and you wind up sourcing used or having them built. The transfercase adapter is a perfect example of this. There are fewer options than there used to be and they are not getting any cheaper, especially if you want a modern stick-shift option.

Resale value. Like it or not, these stupid things have gone the way of the early bronco and full size jeep wagoneer. People with disposable income are picking them up and fixing them, even the ones that shouldn't be saved are being brought back to life with the use of donor rigs and piles of spare cash. When you do a motor swap, unless you are doing the latest and greatest, the new owner isn't going to want to deal with your stuff. They would prefer a stock one to gut, rather than fix your pile of compromises that they wouldn't have done that way. For example, once the hot item was once a Diesel swap or something like a Ramjet 350 or the first gen of LS motors. Now, they have almost all moved to the LS platform, but the 4.8 and the 5.3 are not enough. Everyone wants the 6.0 or the 6.2 and the 6L80 or 6L90 with fancy electronics running the whole thing and a centered rear axle to be able to use a modern transfercase. Then, they want one-ton axles or an 80 series type suspension under it so they can take a corner and have a smooth ride. By the time you get there, a normal person can go buy something somebody else gave up on half way through cheaper than you can do it yourself.

If you aren't in that bracket, you are building it for yourself and you have to accept that if you don't drive the value out of it, you will find a new buyer but your market share of potential customers is narrower. You also have to consider the time and expense that a full swap will entail. Yes, you can do it quick and dirty, some people are amazing fabricators and don't seem to have other things sucking their time, so they get a lot done quickly, but most of us have jobs, families and spouses that don't appreciate us being gone every night for 6 months straight to blow a truck down to the frame, rebuild almost every component or replace it and put it back together.

Only you can answer where your priorities are in this mess. Once upon a time, I thoroughly enjoyed wrenching and building. Now, I put up with a low powered slug that sucks gas like a big block chevy, has the power of an 80's 4 cylinder and drives like a hay wagon because I just don't have the motivation to do all the things I once thought were important so I could have a V8 swapped cruiser on tons that will run with a new Jeep JL and be as comfy as our Suburban is on long trips. I am now that old guy that cruises along at 55-60 mph enjoying the adventure of the trip as much as I enjoy the arrival at the destination and I don't mind cruising in the slow lane as much or planning my gear selection based upon a worn out F-motor derivative that just refuses to do what it was never intended to; be faster than a tractor. That might change next week or next month, but for now, I keep driving this thing thinking it will either find a new home or I will decide whether I want to swap engines some day when it quits doing what I need from it.

 

[FJACS]

I'd imagine some of it is people that are not all that into cruisers to begin with that end up hating how slow they are stock, so they swap in the LS for the massive increase in power, only to realize that these truck are not that great at higher speeds. The LS/Vortec's are very nice engines that make a lot of power and are fairly reliable, BUT, in my opinion the way they drive changes the "character" of the truck. That change is probably exactly what most are looking for when they do these swaps; better overall power, better highway cruising, more efficient, etc.
With that said, after driving a handful of cruisers with different drivetrain combos, my preference is still firmly with a straight six. Land Cruisers drive like tractors, and that's what makes them interesting.

This is mostly it. I think the swap to V8 makes sense from economics and parts availability. I won’t be rebuilding the 2f in my truck when the time comes. But I know how it drives and know that won’t change.

If you buy it V8 swapped and are expecting it to drive like the 2021 Denali the engine came from... you’ll be disappointed. It’s still a slow old truck from the 80’s.

 

[White Stripe]

Options:

Rebuild?
Used 2f?
LS engine?

I am leaning towards an LS engine, but that is spendy.

Also, just 6 months ago I had a 5 speed put it in.

Depends on your financial situation and how long you plan on keeping it. If you are only keeping it for a few years put a used motor in. If your going to keep it many years and money is tight, put a used 2f in or rebuilt 2f. If you are going to keep it for many years and have some money set aside then have a LS swapped in with hydroboost. I don't recommend doing the swap yourself. It takes a lot to make a swap real smooth and those who do swaps know what it takes. A rough diy swap usually isn't great to drive and why people regret swaps. You can sell your 5 speed and recoup some money. A LS swap will make the truck more useful as it will easily pull a trailer with a v8, and easily keep up with traffic. It will cost 30k, but keep in mind a new 4runner is 40k or more. A LS swapped 60 will smoke a 4runner and not lose value.

 

[NCFJ]

I can understand the above opinions on swapped vehicles. Reality is that same can be said about painting your house. If you are an average painter and you skimp on paint, buy cheap brushes and a $35 paint sprayer you are going to get results far below what someone that paints for a living. Yet not even all pros are going to provide you with a proper job either.

I read a lot about swaps, it is a big part of my business. I do not limit my research to only LC swaps. There are bad swaps done every day to all kinds of vehicles. But here on MUD I read about how easy it is and how you can use the OEM radiator, fuel lines etc. Then I go on to read how these same folks are under the hood every weekend doing what it needs to keep it running right. I have two trucks here that were swapped by others that are here for me to fix. One had 4 separate wires that were burnt/melted due to their proximity to the exhaust.

Fact is that Land Cruisers that are properly swapped are a pleasure to drive and very reliable. Yes, it is not cheap and it does not drive like a Tahoe. Probably because all that is swapped is the drive train. A 69 Camaro with an LS3 swap and nothing else still "drives" like a 69 Camaro, just with some added pep. A condition of me doing a swap for someone is that the brakes are upgraded as well. Getting a 60 to lock up all 4 corners and stop straight is really not all that hard but so many totally ignore the brake or anything else for that matter when they go and drop an LS3 or Vortec in their vehicle.

Doing a swap in any vehicle takes time, money and patience. Attention to the smallest of details is important. If you are an average wrench that bought a welder last week I'd say performing a quality swap is not in your wheelhouse.

A side note, be careful about the parts you buy to perform your swap. Using motor mounts, cross member isolators or adapters that lock the drive train into one position is in MY OPINION a mistake. Having the drive shafts lengthened or shortened is really not that much money. I get both shafts redone and all new U joints for under $400. Reality is, a swap without a bit of steel fabrication is going to cost you in other areas.

Doing a swap on your own is certainly doable, just do yourself a favor and don't do it on the cheap.

Oh and as far as value, take a look at what swapped rigs are bringing on BAT vs those not swapped.

 

[ronereed93]

Sorry but this will be long.

Most people upgrade to a different engine expecting all the things that come with the OEM engine and the things that come with the OEM experience in the rig they got the engine from. Rarely does this ever happen. Even the Pro's often have huge problems with swaps. Everything from the smog nazi's vetoing you to unexplained driveability gremlins and one-off adapters that never really work as intended, either by leaking or failing regularly.

Short and simple in support of a swap... The OEM engines suck in landcruisers for the american roadways. Even the 80 series are not up to the task. Now, with that said, take them into their intended environment and they come into their own.

For example. Off road. The 2F motor is a beast from idle to 3K rpm for what it is. A 4.2 liter low compression, low revving torque monster. Inefficient compared to modern stuff but for it's time, it was pretty good for the intended purpose of lugging along below 3K rpm pulling an overbuild leaf sprung 40, 45, 55 or 60 series rig with boring reliability. A lot of the later issues were due to trying to get an ancient engine to pass emissions testing. Yes, coulda-woulda-shoulda, they should've redesigned it in the 70's to what the American inline 6 motors were, but they didn't. It lumbered along with 130 horsepower right up to the 88 model year when the 3FE came along. Yet another in a long line of putting lipstick on a pig and trying to get it to dance. Yes, you can add horsepower but everything is a compromise. You add more RPM capability and you lose low rpm chugging ability in many cases. Big tradeoff for an under-geared pig of a wagon.

Then, came the fuel injection change and Toyota's last effort to save the old F-motor lineage. The 3FE. Although it is a reliable engine that is light years better on-road than the 2F, it is still a pile once you get it on pavement compared to american engines of that era. Off-road, it's o.k. but nothing special, except for the ability to run in any position you can suck fuel out of the tank and the added reliability and longevity part of not having to deal with a carburetor trying to drink the new ethanol blended garbage we use now.

I will be the first to admit that although Toyota builds a pretty good engine that will run 2-300K miles without really having any huge issues compared to some of the other brands and they can be upgraded significantly. It's still a low compression pig suited to drinking low octane, unfinished fuel that will make a small block chevy ping and detonate it's guts out. Now that they are 30+ years old, they are haggard, if not upgraded, old, low compression, hard to get parts for, lumps of cast iron that willingly chug along doing their job but deliver crap fuel mileage and 4 cylinder horsepower; although they still crank out very usable torque for what they are. Quite simply, they do not fill the bill for anyone but a purist or someone who enjoys living life in the slow lane and stopping for gas every 10-13mpg divided into your tank capacity. With that said, one thing they all share in common, if baselined and take care of, they all run very reliably and are smooth in their power delivery. They won't light the tires up but they match the chassis capabilities pretty well and won't usually let you break too many parts in the drivetrain. Fuel economy is predictably abysmal and they have their issues but they will run on anything resembling gasoline and chug along under 700 rpm all day long without shuddering and stalling just don't expect to run the speed limit up any 6% grades.



Now, lets talk about why not to swap.

Once you start down the rabbit hole of more horsepower, you run out of cooling system, brakes and axle strength pretty quick. Yes, you can rectify these things but you begin losing the simplicity that you once had and you spend a lot of coin getting it done, especially if you aren't doing it yourself. Doesn't take much in the way of engine swaps to double the horsepower and almost double the torque of the factory motor. Yes, it runs good and driven responsibly, they will last but you get to engineer lots of things like air conditioning, fan shrouds, electrical systems etc. Then you upgrade the brakes (Should do this anyway) then on up and down stream, especially with bigger tires. There is also the problem that many of the parts that used to be readily available are no longer made and you wind up sourcing used or having them built. The transfercase adapter is a perfect example of this. There are fewer options than there used to be and they are not getting any cheaper, especially if you want a modern stick-shift option.

Resale value. Like it or not, these stupid things have gone the way of the early bronco and full size jeep wagoneer. People with disposable income are picking them up and fixing them, even the ones that shouldn't be saved are being brought back to life with the use of donor rigs and piles of spare cash. When you do a motor swap, unless you are doing the latest and greatest, the new owner isn't going to want to deal with your stuff. They would prefer a stock one to gut, rather than fix your pile of compromises that they wouldn't have done that way. For example, once the hot item was once a Diesel swap or something like a Ramjet 350 or the first gen of LS motors. Now, they have almost all moved to the LS platform, but the 4.8 and the 5.3 are not enough. Everyone wants the 6.0 or the 6.2 and the 6L80 or 6L90 with fancy electronics running the whole thing and a centered rear axle to be able to use a modern transfercase. Then, they want one-ton axles or an 80 series type suspension under it so they can take a corner and have a smooth ride. By the time you get there, a normal person can go buy something somebody else gave up on half way through cheaper than you can do it yourself.

If you aren't in that bracket, you are building it for yourself and you have to accept that if you don't drive the value out of it, you will find a new buyer but your market share of potential customers is narrower. You also have to consider the time and expense that a full swap will entail. Yes, you can do it quick and dirty, some people are amazing fabricators and don't seem to have other things sucking their time, so they get a lot done quickly, but most of us have jobs, families and spouses that don't appreciate us being gone every night for 6 months straight to blow a truck down to the frame, rebuild almost every component or replace it and put it back together.

Only you can answer where your priorities are in this mess. Once upon a time, I thoroughly enjoyed wrenching and building. Now, I put up with a low powered slug that sucks gas like a big block chevy, has the power of an 80's 4 cylinder and drives like a hay wagon because I just don't have the motivation to do all the things I once thought were important so I could have a V8 swapped cruiser on tons that will run with a new Jeep JL and be as comfy as our Suburban is on long trips. I am now that old guy that cruises along at 55-60 mph enjoying the adventure of the trip as much as I enjoy the arrival at the destination and I don't mind cruising in the slow lane as much or planning my gear selection based upon a worn out F-motor derivative that just refuses to do what it was never intended to; be faster than a tractor. That might change next week or next month, but for now, I keep driving this thing thinking it will either find a new home or I will decide whether I want to swap engines some day when it quits doing what I need from it.

Great summary and helpful as I am thinking through my options for recently purchased FJ45 with 2F. I especially liked your quote regarding speed relative to tractor

 

[FJACS]

@NCFJ ‘s work is top notch. Go through a few of his builds to understand what a good swap takes.

My comments above weren’t about quality of work, but rather about expectations of first time buyers who have never driven a 60 series before.