Mapping that 57 looks like it wants to surge quite a bit with any signifigant boost in the mid teens rpm. Worse in the hills. Of which we have many.
The 2H/12H-T/1HZ/1HD-T/1HD-FT Gturbo Alternative Tech Thread (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter ForealBoreal
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57 trim what?
BTW, compressor sizing is only one part of the puzzle. I have been doing completely turbo sizing including turbine response (which lets me predict how much boost and power an engine-turbo combination can deliver at different rpm) for almost a year now.
A big turbine really brings the suck to drivability and fuel economy. Sure 3000rpm and up will feel good, but that's less than 10% of anyones driving.
- Thread starter
- #83
@gerg and @Dougal
what are the exact parameters you are putting in for this calculator?
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/
just so we can replicate things so we are all on the same page.
what are the exact parameters you are putting in for this calculator?
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/
just so we can replicate things so we are all on the same page.
Doug its a t4 57 trim.
Well now Foreal that is a good question. I usually put in 21 afr which is pretty consirvative I feel. Peak boost I use to see what it takes to surge a map. The real question for me is VE at high RPM. Now that is something Dougal can speak to cus hes the one I ask when I dont know, and I feel it is where I usually loose accuracy with plotting. VE is specific to each engine. For example: Doug was looking into VE of the 4bt cummins, and its intake is so rediculously designed that is gets down into the 70s by 2500 rpm. Now the 4bt has a huge following, but its not because of its intake design. It is by all rights an order less sofisticated than my briggs and straton lawnmower intake. So the 1HDt actually has a plenum with individual runners that has had some attention payed to it. That cannot be overstated. I calculate VE of 75 for it up into 3500rpm, but it is all guesswork unless you actually measured it. However, it really does have a nicely designed intake which is reflected in its dyno numbers. I feel an engine with low VE cannot post decient dyno plots up to 4000rpm, which the 1hdt does consistantly. Also, im pretty sure Dougal uses other programs for plotting his stuff. He also plotts turbines for which I would love to hear what he thinks about the td05h turbine. I think it has a hope as its just a tad larger then the HL's. I use squirrel myself cus it gives me quick numbers and can compare multiple maps against each other. I wouldnt want to trust it completely though which is why I like to pad my numbers to build in a good safety margine for error. You have to be careful not to put numbers in to give you a map you want to see. So it only maps compressors which is by far the easiest thing to map. The turbine and housing is the black art alot of which is what you pay for when you buy a gturbo.
So dougal and I are each looking at different turbos here in this thread. He likes the td04HL 19t which by all rights is the absolute most availalbe turbo here which can be successfully adapted to every engine we speak about regularly. It is a tremendous find which most folks cant give a crap about. But whatever. I on the other hand have always wanted to really see what twin scroll exhaust housing can do for spool and lowering drive pressure. I really like the HL, but it almost never somes twin scroll. The TD05HR 16g has a 9.8 cm twin scroll which I think might just be small enough to work on a 1HDt, but I must admit the HL would out perform it for early boost and response time. Now the turbine is smaller, but more importantly its housing is quite small (6cm usually) which I think would be a source of restriction in the higher rpms. How high is high... I dunno. Its never been fitted. Now when we are talking about spooling, well we are comparing it to Gturbo as it is the gold standard if you will. Well at least I am. I dont pretend to think that you could do better than it, but still it would be cool to come close. The 57 trim ct 26 talked about here I serously doubt would be that dramatic a difference over a stocker with a supra wheel. The major thing that needs to be changed is the turbine in my opinion as the stock is just way way to big to respond fast enough. So when Doug is talking boost, hes most likely looking at double digit boost before 1400 rpm, well at least I am. I dont see why you would want to swap out a turbo for very near the same turbo and then expect much of an improvement. Sorry not to answer your question but im tired.
Well now Foreal that is a good question. I usually put in 21 afr which is pretty consirvative I feel. Peak boost I use to see what it takes to surge a map. The real question for me is VE at high RPM. Now that is something Dougal can speak to cus hes the one I ask when I dont know, and I feel it is where I usually loose accuracy with plotting. VE is specific to each engine. For example: Doug was looking into VE of the 4bt cummins, and its intake is so rediculously designed that is gets down into the 70s by 2500 rpm. Now the 4bt has a huge following, but its not because of its intake design. It is by all rights an order less sofisticated than my briggs and straton lawnmower intake. So the 1HDt actually has a plenum with individual runners that has had some attention payed to it. That cannot be overstated. I calculate VE of 75 for it up into 3500rpm, but it is all guesswork unless you actually measured it. However, it really does have a nicely designed intake which is reflected in its dyno numbers. I feel an engine with low VE cannot post decient dyno plots up to 4000rpm, which the 1hdt does consistantly. Also, im pretty sure Dougal uses other programs for plotting his stuff. He also plotts turbines for which I would love to hear what he thinks about the td05h turbine. I think it has a hope as its just a tad larger then the HL's. I use squirrel myself cus it gives me quick numbers and can compare multiple maps against each other. I wouldnt want to trust it completely though which is why I like to pad my numbers to build in a good safety margine for error. You have to be careful not to put numbers in to give you a map you want to see. So it only maps compressors which is by far the easiest thing to map. The turbine and housing is the black art alot of which is what you pay for when you buy a gturbo.
So dougal and I are each looking at different turbos here in this thread. He likes the td04HL 19t which by all rights is the absolute most availalbe turbo here which can be successfully adapted to every engine we speak about regularly. It is a tremendous find which most folks cant give a crap about. But whatever. I on the other hand have always wanted to really see what twin scroll exhaust housing can do for spool and lowering drive pressure. I really like the HL, but it almost never somes twin scroll. The TD05HR 16g has a 9.8 cm twin scroll which I think might just be small enough to work on a 1HDt, but I must admit the HL would out perform it for early boost and response time. Now the turbine is smaller, but more importantly its housing is quite small (6cm usually) which I think would be a source of restriction in the higher rpms. How high is high... I dunno. Its never been fitted. Now when we are talking about spooling, well we are comparing it to Gturbo as it is the gold standard if you will. Well at least I am. I dont pretend to think that you could do better than it, but still it would be cool to come close. The 57 trim ct 26 talked about here I serously doubt would be that dramatic a difference over a stocker with a supra wheel. The major thing that needs to be changed is the turbine in my opinion as the stock is just way way to big to respond fast enough. So when Doug is talking boost, hes most likely looking at double digit boost before 1400 rpm, well at least I am. I dont see why you would want to swap out a turbo for very near the same turbo and then expect much of an improvement. Sorry not to answer your question but im tired.
Hi there, well this is an interesting thread. I have been so busy the last 6 or so months that I haven't had the opportunity to do any trolling of posts etc.
Wow Im surprised, its almost like there is bad blood out there because I charge for my turbos and what I have said online - I truly spent years and hundreds of posts helping people with designs and calcs, so Im surprised at the tone, but I guess you can't please everybody. How many people/companies offer products that actually live up to their claims?
Regarding the TD42s they are typically starting at 14-15:1 and finishing at 17:1 afrs, so huge amounts of exhaust drive and can take a more "petrol style" turbo. And the turbos mentioned (the TD05 range) are actually quite modified as well; not off the shelf units.
Gturbo on Facebook is where I post dyno results these days, so if you want a reference to design your turbos, compare to, then go there. My own dyno (A US made Dynocom AWD15000) arrives mid May, so will be reporting a lot of data once that comes.
Im doing a lot of vnt turbos now with great results
Anyway, all the best with it guys. Cheers, G
Wow Im surprised, its almost like there is bad blood out there because I charge for my turbos and what I have said online - I truly spent years and hundreds of posts helping people with designs and calcs, so Im surprised at the tone, but I guess you can't please everybody. How many people/companies offer products that actually live up to their claims?
Regarding the TD42s they are typically starting at 14-15:1 and finishing at 17:1 afrs, so huge amounts of exhaust drive and can take a more "petrol style" turbo. And the turbos mentioned (the TD05 range) are actually quite modified as well; not off the shelf units.
Gturbo on Facebook is where I post dyno results these days, so if you want a reference to design your turbos, compare to, then go there. My own dyno (A US made Dynocom AWD15000) arrives mid May, so will be reporting a lot of data once that comes.
Im doing a lot of vnt turbos now with great results
Anyway, all the best with it guys. Cheers, G
I would say that first one is far to big. The 2nd one maybe not bad, turbine maybe a bit big I know for my 4L turbo it would be but its much lower reving than a 1HD-FT. Adapting a T3 turbine to a CT26 flamge is not very hard at all, just takes a bit of time. Eric let me know if you want help .
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I didn't know the td42 guys were running so rich. I know they don't mind over fuelling at all, and I know IDIs can run lower, but that is pretty low. I know to that the UFI turbos are modded lots, but I was looking just at run of the mill Chinese td05s off ebay. They didn't seem to have near the performance of united's, but that's not surprising. If they are running that rich then the 05 might be not be a great candidate, but the 6cyls lend themselves to divided manifolds so easily. So I contacted that twin scroll td04 I linked before and the rep said it was not described correctly and
Changed the post. It has a 9 blade STS turbine as well which will flow more up top as well as has a 8.5cm divided housing so would flow much much better than the 12 blade 6cm stocker. I actually didn't know there was a 20t compressor out there.
The HL turbine is a 46.5/52mm wheel 77 trim
The tdo5h turbine is a 49/56mm wheel 77 trim
The t3 stage 1 turbine is 48/59mm wheel 67 trim
Changed the post. It has a 9 blade STS turbine as well which will flow more up top as well as has a 8.5cm divided housing so would flow much much better than the 12 blade 6cm stocker. I actually didn't know there was a 20t compressor out there.
The HL turbine is a 46.5/52mm wheel 77 trim
The tdo5h turbine is a 49/56mm wheel 77 trim
The t3 stage 1 turbine is 48/59mm wheel 67 trim
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So Gerg, what are your thoughts on the td05 perhaps with the 16g wheel?
Well im sort of waiting for Dougal to kindly take a look at the turbine side of things, cus that is what would determine its suitability. The compressor isnt as good as the 19t but if the turbine would spool reasonablly then it would be an upgrade. Actually I know it would be an upgrade over stock, the question is how much better? It doesnt make sence to go to all the trouble of swapping turbos for lackluster improvement. The twinscroll feature wouldnt be realized unless the manifold was modified to separate the pulses at the turbo flange. So its not a direct bolt on.
Graeme described the average competition TD42T on another forum as a "smokey water heater". Which I think sums it up very well. By the time you're dumping fuel out the exhaust your fuel economy is down to petrol levels. So why run diesels again?
Yes Graeme the internet is a very strange place. Unfortunately I consider facebook an even stranger corner so I never do anything there.
I use my own calculation spread-sheets for turbo sizing. I have turbine sizing (so you can predict boost) and compound turbo sizing working now. My god is that a headache. I literally have 10 years work invested in these. I don't count the hours.
VE can take a lot of investigation to get right. I know Graeme has it sorted, but you can't nicely ask him to spill his own hard work in a thread devoted to alternatives to his products.
For 2 valve engines I start with 90% at rated torque and 80% at rated power. Individual engines can be higher or lower. 4 valve engines can be far better.
A Norwegian Engineer tells me the VW 1.6 petrol (2 valve) runs a VE of 95% at 4,500rpm. The 1.6td should be similar.
Yes Graeme the internet is a very strange place. Unfortunately I consider facebook an even stranger corner so I never do anything there.
I use my own calculation spread-sheets for turbo sizing. I have turbine sizing (so you can predict boost) and compound turbo sizing working now. My god is that a headache. I literally have 10 years work invested in these. I don't count the hours.
VE can take a lot of investigation to get right. I know Graeme has it sorted, but you can't nicely ask him to spill his own hard work in a thread devoted to alternatives to his products.
For 2 valve engines I start with 90% at rated torque and 80% at rated power. Individual engines can be higher or lower. 4 valve engines can be far better.
A Norwegian Engineer tells me the VW 1.6 petrol (2 valve) runs a VE of 95% at 4,500rpm. The 1.6td should be similar.
Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
coz you like 'em .? at least I do ..
Some of those td42 guys report 18 and even 20l/100k. That's almost as bad as my 1fzfe.
I prefer diesels too. But there's no way I'd run one "smoke propelled" like that.
If you're "rolling coal" all the time the truck isn't really tuned all that well anyways. I like it when it's tuned well enough so there's really only a slight puff as it begins to take off.
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yotahed
Diesel Head
Graeme,
Don't think there's any bad blood here. Just a bunch of guys looking to do some research and figure it out for themselves, y'know. You're product is talked about and praised here in canada, so there's little question about your success in quality and performance. I think it simply being used as the standard to build off of.
Australia is known for its diesel know-how, and I think it only.makes sense for these shores to bring in our own flavor of tinkering and mods to complement the aftermarket community with another option. Performance pumps and injectors included.
I salute anyone that does their own research, I know how much time and effort is involved in R&D of this type of stuff.
Cheers
Great thread BTW.
Don't think there's any bad blood here. Just a bunch of guys looking to do some research and figure it out for themselves, y'know. You're product is talked about and praised here in canada, so there's little question about your success in quality and performance. I think it simply being used as the standard to build off of.
Australia is known for its diesel know-how, and I think it only.makes sense for these shores to bring in our own flavor of tinkering and mods to complement the aftermarket community with another option. Performance pumps and injectors included.
I salute anyone that does their own research, I know how much time and effort is involved in R&D of this type of stuff.
Cheers
Great thread BTW.
Here's an option for you It may not have the response down low that your after but drive ability is very good. kW on the left a/f ratio on the right .its a nissan td 4.2 with garret gtx2863, water to air intercooler, 3inch exhaust, and electric lift pump into standard 11mm pump witch is maxed out . bit dirty down low but still quite acceptable . United's tdo5 16g and 18g have better response. With modified pump 170kw is achievable . Is there much difference in turbo Sizing between the nissan 4.2 and toyota also have dynos of United's turbo if interested
Looks like it's not getting full boost until ~2200rpm which is a problem with getting lots of boost from a GT28 turbine. Personally I prefer max boost a lot sooner.
A tune which is in any way dirty is IMO completely unsuitable for towing. I run a tune that is completely clean (~19:1 A/F at full load) but on the weekend while towing 3 ton at almost 600m altitude my EGT's were knocking on 800C in 5th gear.
With a hotter tune even 4th gear would be an exercise in backing off the throttle to keep temps down. Possibly even using 3rd on hills to keep rpm up.
A tune which is in any way dirty is IMO completely unsuitable for towing. I run a tune that is completely clean (~19:1 A/F at full load) but on the weekend while towing 3 ton at almost 600m altitude my EGT's were knocking on 800C in 5th gear.
With a hotter tune even 4th gear would be an exercise in backing off the throttle to keep temps down. Possibly even using 3rd on hills to keep rpm up.
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Max boost 24psi is at 1900rpm. When I say dirty I meant just a puff on take off till a/f ratios pick up. Yeah egt's do com up a bit when towing up hills with this tune. for a tow vehicle for the average joe that doesn't monitor temps I'd tune around 21 to 22 A/f ratio . Dougal if your after something that performs like a gturbo grunter ufi's 16g does this . I'm not sure on the mods they do to them but . I'm trying to suggest something to get you in the ballpark.
Thanks, but I've already got my turbochargers selected and mapped out. It's just time and life that keeps getting in the way.
Ok cool . Yeah free time if only there were more hours in the day . Be sure to post results keen to see.
