The 2H/12H-T/1HZ/1HD-T/1HD-FT Gturbo Alternative Tech Thread (1 Viewer)

[FJ601986]

Anyone have a good source for a down elbow for the CT 26 part number 17291-68010, or a used one they would like to sell?
Want to turbo my 2H have the manifold need the turbo and down elbow now. Thanks Joe G

 

[Toy12HT]

I can't believe how many "professor wastegates" there are on this thread. For god sake..... Chill. Has anyone heard of paralysis by analysis? Lots of physics and not much real world experience.
I've just come back from the Simpson and the two other cars both had gturbos. Both cars had turbo problems while were away. So we can talk about boost and volumetric efficiency and all the other acronyms you professor waste gates like to talk about. Its what happens in the real world not the theoretical world that counts.
Not sure who Dougal is but he has missed his calling. With such an acerbic tongue he should be critequing moves.
My advice, get off the laptop and into you're cars and enjoy them.

 

[KiwiDingo]

@Toy12HT Umm this is a tech thread mate, if you don't want to read about tech move along....

 

[Wildnlost]

To Wildnlost, what electronic boost controller do you use?

I am running an
Innovate Motorsports SCG-1.
Wow sorry for the long reply.

 

[AussieHJCruza]

@Toy12HT Umm this is a tech thread mate, if you don't want to read about tech move along....

Well said!

 

[Toy12HT]

Tech thread maybe but bitching at each other like old ladies at the hairdresser's....pull your finger out

 

[gerg]

Tech thread maybe but bitching at each other like old ladies at the hairdresser's....pull your finger out

Sounds like you’ll fit right in!

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

Not directly on topic, but related.

I have build a divided exhaust manifold for divided turbo. The turbo is internally wastegated.
I'm going to add EGT and EGP gauges, so the question is which one goes to which side(wastegated side or n/a), or does it matter at all?

I’m getting ready to go to a twin scroll. Keep us updated. Very interesting

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

I want to bite on what @KiwiDingo is trying to get us to all understand. I don't want to fight just provoke people to try and look outside of just the diesel cruiser community for data on EMP vs IMP and why it can and does affect performance and drivability. I am going to provide a link from Gale Banks. Please, people, go watch it then try and decide for yourself. I feel like most of these High Flowed CT26s only look cool on a boost gauge, they operate on such high drive pressures that it absolutely has to be effecting air density and volumetric efficiency. The best way I can think of it is:

If I have a turbo giving 20psi at the intake manifold and 40psi in the exhaust manifold (EMP/IMP 2:1) vs a turbo giving 20psi at the intake manifold and 25psi (EMP/IMP 1.25:1) at the exhaust manifold which is allowing denser air in the cylinder? The latter has to be. If I have 45 psi at the exhaust and 20 psi at the intake it is not letting out all the exhaust gas from combustion and in turn, is resulting in less dense air for the next stroke than if I was able to get all those gasses out. The closer we get to 1:1 the higher efficiency goes. Yes, you will lose spool up according to the gauge but you will see that transient response is better with the turbo with a lower drive pressure. I believe this anyways.

Currently, I plan to ditch the G Turbo I have and "try" out a Borg Warner EFR7163 with a twin-scroll .83 A/R housing or a S252SXE with a .83 A/R. I may regret it but I hope not.

Anyways here is the link even if you disagree just watch it. It may change your mind about backpressure.

 

[mudgudgeon]

I want to bite on what @KiwiDingo is trying to get us to all understand. I don't want to fight just provoke people to try and look outside of just the diesel cruiser community for data on EMP vs IMP and why it can and does affect performance and drivability. I am going to provide a link from Gale Banks. Please, people, go watch it then try and decide for yourself. I feel like most of these High Flowed CT26s only look cool on a boost gauge, they operate on such high drive pressures that it absolutely has to be effecting air density and volumetric efficiency. The best way I can think of it is:

If I have a turbo giving 20psi at the intake manifold and 40psi in the exhaust manifold (EMP/IMP 2:1) vs a turbo giving 20psi at the intake manifold and 25psi (EMP/IMP 1.25:1) at the exhaust manifold which is allowing denser air in the cylinder? The latter has to be. If I have 45 psi at the exhaust and 20 psi at the intake it is not letting out all the exhaust gas from combustion and in turn, is resulting in less dense air for the next stroke than if I was able to get all those gasses out. The closer we get to 1:1 the higher efficiency goes. Yes, you will lose spool up according to the gauge but you will see that transient response is better with the turbo with a lower drive pressure. I believe this anyways.

Currently, I plan to ditch the G Turbo I have and "try" out a Borg Warner EFR7163 with a twin-scroll .83 A/R housing or a S252SXE with a .83 A/R. I may regret it but I hope not.

Anyways here is the link even if you disagree just watch it. It may change your mind about backpressure.

No rocket science there.

Interesting to see how they chart and data log it to make the comparison.

Is all about finding a balance between the various positives and negatives

 

[KiwiDingo]

Currently, I plan to ditch the G Turbo I have and "try" out a Borg Warner EFR7163 with a twin-scroll .83 A/R housing or a S252SXE with a .83 A/R. I may regret it but I hope not.

Just keep in mind the EFR7163 has a 63mm inducer/56mm exducer turbine wheel of a mixed flow design where the S252 has a much larger 70mm inducer/61mm exducer turbine wheel in a more traditional radial flow design.

The EFR equivalent for the S252 is actually the EFR 7670 which uses the identical turbine wheel sizing but in the fancier gamma-TI material.

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

Just keep in mind the EFR7163 has a 63mm inducer/56mm exducer turbine wheel of a mixed flow design where the S252 has a much larger 70mm inducer/61mm exducer turbine wheel in a more traditional radial flow design.

The EFR equivalent for the S252 is actually the EFR 7670 which uses the identical turbine wheel sizing but in the fancier gamma-TI material.

yes I’m actually battling between the 3. EFR 7670, 7163 or the s252sxe all with a twin scroll housings. I do understand the SXE and EFR are quite different. I don’t want to lose to much bottom end so I’m entertaining the 7163 but it will start to choke after about 3k RPM but it’s still under 1.4:1 according to Borgs matchbot program. The 7670 and 252sxe will flow quite a bit more up top.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Yes, all good choices that all come with pros and cons. I'm a very big fan of the EFR 7064, it's EMP ratio will be a lot better in the top end compared to the 7163 due to the turbine wheel design and the comp wheel sizing.

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

Yes, all good choices that all come with pros and cons. I'm a very big fan of the EFR 7064, it's EMP ratio will be a lot better in the top end compared to the 7163 due to the turbine wheel design and the comp wheel sizing.

im going to input that one into the program and see what I find. I’ll post the link here so other can play with the numbers.

 

[Dougal]

I want to bite on what @KiwiDingo is trying to get us to all understand. I don't want to fight just provoke people to try and look outside of just the diesel cruiser community for data on EMP vs IMP and why it can and does affect performance and drivability. I am going to provide a link from Gale Banks. Please, people, go watch it then try and decide for yourself. I feel like most of these High Flowed CT26s only look cool on a boost gauge, they operate on such high drive pressures that it absolutely has to be effecting air density and volumetric efficiency. The best way I can think of it is:

If I have a turbo giving 20psi at the intake manifold and 40psi in the exhaust manifold (EMP/IMP 2:1) vs a turbo giving 20psi at the intake manifold and 25psi (EMP/IMP 1.25:1) at the exhaust manifold which is allowing denser air in the cylinder? The latter has to be. If I have 45 psi at the exhaust and 20 psi at the intake it is not letting out all the exhaust gas from combustion and in turn, is resulting in less dense air for the next stroke than if I was able to get all those gasses out. The closer we get to 1:1 the higher efficiency goes. Yes, you will lose spool up according to the gauge but you will see that transient response is better with the turbo with a lower drive pressure. I believe this anyways.

Currently, I plan to ditch the G Turbo I have and "try" out a Borg Warner EFR7163 with a twin-scroll .83 A/R housing or a S252SXE with a .83 A/R. I may regret it but I hope not.

Anyways here is the link even if you disagree just watch it. It may change your mind about backpressure.

I think you have the claims wrong. Kiwidingo wasn't claiming lower drive pressure is better. Because everyone already knows that. Kiwidingo was claiming he could perform magic that defeated all the laws of physics with a wastegate setting.

A well matched turbo can beat 1:1 at high load and low rpm. As your RPM climbs the EMP always rises and as EGT falls the EMP also rises. This is why you'll get the best EMP:IMP ratio at the lowest rpm that you hit max boost and at the highest load.

I can beat 1:1 at best point with a 30 year old T25 turbo pushing 20psi. But only with EGT north of 700C and rpm around 1800.

2:1 should only be reached under cold acceleration. Then rapidly drop as the EGT rises and the turbine warms up. Hotter turbines run more efficiently.

Borg Warners Matchbot software can give you all these data points. Including EMP. But you need to be accurate with your inputs. Also beware about shaft failures on some EFR turbos.

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

This link is mapped for the EFR 7670. I adjusted the boost to as high as I could get it at 1500RPM which is 9psi. Please, anyone, feel free to adjust whatever numbers that you know are wrong. My confusion with this program is that I don't know what number to input for EGT. Meaning I don't know if I should input EGT numbers that I observe while everyday driving or wide-open throttle from 1st-5th gear. This EGT value greatly affects the turbos capability to produce boost down low (which is to be expected) Any input is appreciated. You will notice with the first drop-down menu that exhaust manifold pressure is always less than 1:1 until about 3500RPM when its maximum RPM chokepoint is still only 1.19:1. I'm obsessing over this right now because I'm trying to decide which turbo is best so that I can get a divided manifold made to suit the turbo. BorgWarner MatchBot

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

I think you have the claims wrong. Kiwidingo wasn't claiming lower drive pressure is better. Because everyone already knows that. Kiwidingo was claiming he could perform magic that defeated all the laws of physics with a wastegate setting.

A well matched turbo can beat 1:1 at high load and low rpm. As your RPM climbs the EMP always rises and as EGT falls the EMP also rises. This is why you'll get the best EMP:IMP ratio at the lowest rpm that you hit max boost and at the highest load.

I can beat 1:1 at best point with a 30 year old T25 turbo pushing 20psi. But only with EGT north of 700C and rpm around 1800.

2:1 should only be reached under cold acceleration. Then rapidly drop as the EGT rises and the turbine warms up. Hotter turbines run more efficiently.

Borg Warners Matchbot software can give you all these data points. Including EMP. But you need to be accurate with your inputs. Also beware about shaft failures on some EFR turbos.

I understood it wrong then. At the end of the day, we all want performance or reliability. It seems most aftermarket companies only create turbos for the large crowd in the community that want to see 20PSI of boost by 1500RPM achieved through very very high drive pressure. I really want to take a risk with some of these bigger turbos and twin-scroll housings. I just need to get it close to correct the first time as I don't have disposable income. The cruiser community needs to jump on the twin scroll train as we all know its more efficient. Any advice is always appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[Dougal]

This link is mapped for the EFR 7670. I adjusted the boost to as high as I could get it at 1500RPM which is 9psi. Please, anyone, feel free to adjust whatever numbers that you know are wrong. My confusion with this program is that I don't know what number to input for EGT. Meaning I don't know if I should input EGT numbers that I observe while everyday driving or wide-open throttle from 1st-5th gear. This EGT value greatly affects the turbos capability to produce boost down low (which is to be expected) Any input is appreciated. You will notice with the first drop-down menu that exhaust manifold pressure is always less than 1:1 until about 3500RPM when its maximum RPM chokepoint is still only 1.19:1. I'm obsessing over this right now because I'm trying to decide which turbo is best so that I can get a divided manifold made to suit the turbo. BorgWarner MatchBot

A couple of points.
EGT should be your max load. You size turbochargers to handle that and they look after themselves at part load.
Your V.E. (volumetric efficiency) is too high. It should be about 90% at lower rpm and tapering to about 80% at higher rpm.
Intercooler effectiveness is too high. Go for 80%.
Turbine efficiency is too high at low rpm. Flatten that out. Start with 70-75%.

This is what I got by tweaking your numbers: BorgWarner MatchBot

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

A couple of points.
EGT should be your max load. You size turbochargers to handle that and they look after themselves at part load.
Your V.E. (volumetric efficiency) is too high. It should be about 90% at lower rpm and tapering to about 80% at higher rpm.
Intercooler effectiveness is too high. Go for 80%.
Turbine efficiency is too high at low rpm. Flatten that out. Start with 70-75%.

This is what I got by tweaking your numbers: BorgWarner MatchBot

The turbine efficiency models I got from watching the tutorial videos where he started that he adjust the 1-2-3 percentage to +15% +10% +5% respectively because of a twin scroll housing being used. Everything else you stated I’m too ignorant to adjust so I left it alone. Thank you!

 

[Magic Spool Bus]

A couple of points.
EGT should be your max load. You size turbochargers to handle that and they look after themselves at part load.
Your V.E. (volumetric efficiency) is too high. It should be about 90% at lower rpm and tapering to about 80% at higher rpm.
Intercooler effectiveness is too high. Go for 80%.
Turbine efficiency is too high at low rpm. Flatten that out. Start with 70-75%.

This is what I got by tweaking your numbers: BorgWarner MatchBot

I would never run my EGT that high. 1350 max maybe but your number look a lot more realistic when it comes to power and torque output.