Steering rack - how does it hold up to 35's, 37's...

[TaishoCruiser]

To start, I want to thank everyone who has and continues to push the envelope with the 200 series!

Steering rack question - For anyone in a rush and willing to share a few thoughts ... if you're running 35's 37's, or 40's - how is your steering rack holding up? And if it bit the dust, did you do anything different (bushings, viton seals, higher flow pump, cooler, other) the second time around?

For anyone who wants a longer read - here's a bit more about build planning and why I am curious about steering racks and larger tires . I am thinking about a new 'build' and have been toying with the idea of 1) a smaller GX460 with long travel suspension and 35's to tackle trails and bomb along for the occasional western offroad trip, 2) a second LC200 that I'm okay to pinstripe on the trails and again, open it up a bit on wider trails out west, or (forgive me, for I have sinned in my thoughts...) 3) a Bronco Raptor. I know, I know, whiskey tango foxtrot, I am all over the map. But hear me out...

Bronco - After test driving a Bronco Raptor I started to like the idea of a factory engineered and warrantied package with the suspension, steering (mostly) and brakes (sort of) to handle 37's. No, it does not drive on road like and LC200, but in comparison to my last Jeep (JKU on Dana 60's, which was fun), it felt pretty well sorted. Then right after this a friend had her Bronco die (full stop) on the highway. And when I went back to pick up a different friend up from the Ford dealer when his F150 went in for some warranty work (cam phasers), there was a Bronco Raptor queued up for repairs with what I overhead was steering 'failure' (not sure if it was the pump or rack that just died). I know 74Weld has a nice steering upgrade, which is a huge plus to have in the back pocket, and I really like the suspension on the Raptor. But the engine failure, even if it isn't common, gives me pause.

GX460 - I know the 150 to 200 may be apples to oranges but it is still a V8 which I like, it is 600-800 lbs lighter than an LX570 which I like when I look at total armored weight, and for playing around on tight trails, and it seems like it would be easier to wheel due to the smaller body. But then I went down a rabbit hole and started to add up the cost of brake upgrades, a transmission cooler and maybe a torque converter, and retrofitting a 200 series steering to go along with a long travel kit (JDfab, TC, RCLT, or Dirt King who I really like). Both the numbers and the list of upgrades made me think 'screw the width and weight and just start with another LC200' as a base vs a GX where I am trying to retrofit LC200 (steering, rear axle, maybe the front diff) and LC200 level parts (brakes, transmission cooling, etc) to be able to reliably wheel the GX the way I want.

LC200 - I know it isn't going to be a Bronco Raptor, but with 37's, a Tundra Long Travel Kit (Tundra LT as opposed to Tundra Factory width), a bit of extra travel and width in the back, and some skids and sliders that I'm ready and willing to use, I feel like the LC200 is a great platform to road trip, wheel, and return home.

So in addition to welcoming thoughts on steering racks I'd love to get any feedback from folks who have wheeled other platforms and from those who are running and pushing 37's, 40's, and the like on the LC200. Are you happy? If you had to start over, would you pick up another LC200, would you rolel the dice on a Bronco, or would you try something else?

 

[nwfl4runner]

I've been running 37s for 2 years now and I think I wheel hard trails, but I do wheel them slowly and gently for what that's worth. Not because I'm worried about the 200, it's just I've got another vehicle for go fast stuff, more a horses for courses situation. The only steering upgrade I have is the Coachbuilder billet OTRE. My steering is tight as a drum, no issues whatsoever. Don't forget, the stock LC rack is what Marlin uses on their RCLT "rack". I put it down to the size of the 200 series components, they really are just massive. So short answer is I wouldn't spend a second worrying about the rack, this isn't a 1st/2nd gen tacoma trying to turn 37s.

For what it's worth, if you want a go-fast style truck, I'd suggest you head over to tacomaworld and read the long travel section there (if you haven't already). If you toss a Tundra LT kit up front you're gonna be 4-5" wider per side than stock, and nobody state side makes fenders for that. I'm running Tundra arms and with 37s my tires stick out obnoxiously far as is. Sorting the front is easier than the rear too, where the passenger side rear UCA is a limiting factor - you can't lengthen it any meaningful amount due to the gas tank, so your rear travel just won't have the juice to keep up with the front without a significant amount of work. And your front is going to be so wide compared to the rear it'll handle weird.

 

[TaishoCruiser]

I've been running 37s for 2 years now and I think I wheel hard trails, but I do wheel them slowly and gently for what that's worth. Not because I'm worried about the 200, it's just I've got another vehicle for go fast stuff, more a horses for courses situation. The only steering upgrade I have is the Coachbuilder billet OTRE. My steering is tight as a drum, no issues whatsoever. Don't forget, the stock LC rack is what Marlin uses on their RCLT "rack". I put it down to the size of the 200 series components, they really are just massive. So short answer is I wouldn't spend a second worrying about the rack, this isn't a 1st/2nd gen tacoma trying to turn 37s.

For what it's worth, if you want a go-fast style truck, I'd suggest you head over to tacomaworld and read the long travel section there (if you haven't already). If you toss a Tundra LT kit up front you're gonna be 4-5" wider per side than stock, and nobody state side makes fenders for that. I'm running Tundra arms and with 37s my tires stick out obnoxiously far as is. Sorting the front is easier than the rear too, where the passenger side rear UCA is a limiting factor - you can't lengthen it any meaningful amount due to the gas tank, so your rear travel just won't have the juice to keep up with the front without a significant amount of work. And your front is going to be so wide compared to the rear it'll handle weird.

Thank you for the quick reply, first hand feedback, and ideas. When you have time, a few quick questions and follow-ups.
1) What is you go fast vehicle of choice?

2) Racks -
Marlin - I was really excited about the RCLT from talking to people at Jambo in Texas one year (before the official release) and reading about different long travel setups on Tacomas, 4Runners, and Tundras. Since then, I understand a few people have had issues with the rack (more fun reading here - Tacoma World - RCLT Thread - which gave me a little pause and was one factor in brining me back to an LC200 based build.
For anyone who happens across this thread later on, here are a few other Tundra/200 rack related links:
Tundras Steering Rack Thread
BasikBiker's Tundra steering rack upgrades

3) Width -
Front - I hear you on fenders and was planning to have those 'masaged' or going with something from Fjallasport. I thought that @1UZJ80N60 was running a Tundra LT setup (so 4 inches wider than the factory LC200) and managed to make it work with some reasonable fender trimming. His build was a key inspiration for my 'plan' - Long Travel LX570 Goodness .

Rear axle width - I was planning to modify the 9.5 to accept wider Tundra shafts ( Rear axle spacers ) and then add a wheel spacer to get somewhat closer to the front width. Or the other option - a Fusion4x4 axle if they would do a five lug rear end. I love their axles in Jeeps and know they are doing 6 lug toyota axles for Tacomas/4Runners/GX's. For anyone who is interested - Fusion4x4 Toyota Axle Options .

4) Rear travel - now that is probably the biggest wrench in my plans and something I had missed in terms of the passenger UCA hitting the gas tank
. In addition to wanting to have the front to rear track width being close for handling, I was hoping to get more rear travel so that I didn't have the front end outpacing the rear. Hmm. I need to crank the LX up into high and break out the tape measurer. @turbo8 , @TeCKis300 , @1UZJ80N60 and others - is there a thread or build on getting more rear travel that I have missed?

I really wanted to go long travel, and 'lcog' without a big body lift but maybe a Tundra factory width front and small body lift are the way.

 

[nwfl4runner]

Thank you for the quick reply, first hand feedback, and ideas. When you have time, a few quick questions and follow-ups.
1) What is you go fast vehicle of choice?

2) Racks -
Marlin - I was really excited about the RCLT from talking to people at Jambo in Texas one year (before the official release) and reading about different long travel setups on Tacomas, 4Runners, and Tundras. Since then, I understand a few people have had issues with the rack (more fun reading here - Tacoma World - RCLT Thread - which gave me a little pause and was one factor in brining me back to an LC200 based build.
For anyone who happens across this thread later on, here are a few other Tundra/200 rack related links:
Tundras Steering Rack Thread
BasikBiker's Tundra steering rack upgrades

3) Width -
Front - I hear you on fenders and was planning to have those 'masaged' or going with something from Fjallasport. I thought that @1UZJ80N60 was running a Tundra LT setup (so 4 inches wider than the factory LC200) and managed to make it work with some reasonable fender trimming. His build was a key inspiration for my 'plan' - Long Travel LX570 Goodness .

Rear axle width - I was planning to modify the 9.5 to accept wider Tundra shafts ( Rear axle spacers ) and then add a wheel spacer to get somewhat closer to the front width. Or the other option - a Fusion4x4 axle if they would do a five lug rear end. I love their axles in Jeeps and know they are doing 6 lug toyota axles for Tacomas/4Runners/GX's. For anyone who is interested - Fusion4x4 Toyota Axle Options .

4) Rear travel - now that is probably the biggest wrench in my plans and something I had missed in terms of the passenger UCA hitting the gas tank
. In addition to wanting to have the front to rear track width being close for handling, I was hoping to get more rear travel so that I didn't have the front end outpacing the rear. Hmm. I need to crank the LX up into high and break out the tape measurer. @turbo8 , @TeCKis300 , @1UZJ80N60 and others - is there a thread or build on getting more rear travel that I have missed?

I really wanted to go long travel, and 'lcog' without a big body lift but maybe a Tundra factory width front and small body lift are the way.

View attachment 3634644

Absolutely man!
1 - My go fast is a 3rd gen 4runner. Caged, tube back-half, Solo XLT with King 2.5x10 coilovers and 3.0 triple bypass up front, right now tying the engine cage into the cab so we can bump off the UCA. It's on temporary leafs in the rear so it can roll around the shop, but going mezzanine arms (boxed, CNC), Spidertrax 9 full float and 2.5x16 coilovers and triples, and a double triangulated 4 link.

2 - Not sure about the mounting on the rack when they drop it into other models, but I thought that was the main issue, not the actual innards of the rack. My rack is original at 160k, the last 30k or so with 37s (daily), and there's not so much as a weep on the ITRE or lines.

3 - I clear 37s at full bump, but that was with cutting probably 3" of fender. In the rear, matching that width you won't be stuffing the tire, so you'll be cutting the seam, and that's a lot of body work. I run RWs that are beadlock conversions so they're 1/2" wider, on 1.25" wheel spacers, and I can tuck the 37 past the fender lip, but by a hair. @MTKID has done some absolutely awesome bodywork to fit his 40s, but I just don't have the bodywork skill to stitch and repaint exterior panels.

4 - I'd recon @TeCKis300, @MTKID and myself have the most rear travel on our LXs, at least that I can recall, while still keeping AHC. I'm running the @turbo8 extension with a 1" body lift, and the only loss of travel is my Timbren off-road bumps which compress to 2.75" (so whatever that difference is over the stock bumps). I flex enough that the coils can unseat at full droop (as I found out at Moab). And no WAY is that keeping up with a true long travel front. 200s without AHC can probably get a bit more with extended travel shocks, but nothing like a true long travel a-arm kit.

I'm a broken record around here, but my vote is a 200, body lift, tundra arms (regular not long travel), 37s, and send it.

 

[tbisaacs]

Monica runs a stock steering rack. Just sayin’

Builds - Canguro Racing's Monica

There have been a handful of mentions and a couple threads about specific races but we figure it was time to really document a bit more about the vehicle, how we came to race it, how we inherited the build, the things we have changed, how and what we prep and replace before each race, etc...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[TaishoCruiser]

Monica runs a stock steering rack. Just sayin’

Builds - Canguro Racing's Monica

There have been a handful of mentions and a couple threads about specific races but we figure it was time to really document a bit more about the vehicle, how we came to race it, how we inherited the build, the things we have changed, how and what we prep and replace before each race, etc...

forum.ih8mud.com

Yes - and having followed Monica and crew's exploits, that gives me some confidence while leaving me scratching my head as to why some people have had issues with the the Tundra rack (more on Tundras than on the 120/150 conversions). But coming back to your point ... well said!

 

[TaishoCruiser]

Absolutely man!
1 - My go fast is a 3rd gen 4runner. Caged, tube back-half, Solo XLT with King 2.5x10 coilovers and 3.0 triple bypass up front, right now tying the engine cage into the cab so we can bump off the UCA. It's on temporary leafs in the rear so it can roll around the shop, but going mezzanine arms (boxed, CNC), Spidertrax 9 full float and 2.5x16 coilovers and triples, and a double triangulated 4 link.

2 - Not sure about the mounting on the rack when they drop it into other models, but I thought that was the main issue, not the actual innards of the rack. My rack is original at 160k, the last 30k or so with 37s (daily), and there's not so much as a weep on the ITRE or lines.

3 - I clear 37s at full bump, but that was with cutting probably 3" of fender. In the rear, matching that width you won't be stuffing the tire, so you'll be cutting the seam, and that's a lot of body work. I run RWs that are beadlock conversions so they're 1/2" wider, on 1.25" wheel spacers, and I can tuck the 37 past the fender lip, but by a hair. @MTKID has done some absolutely awesome bodywork to fit his 40s, but I just don't have the bodywork skill to stitch and repaint exterior panels.

4 - I'd recon @TeCKis300, @MTKID and myself have the most rear travel on our LXs, at least that I can recall, while still keeping AHC. I'm running the @turbo8 extension with a 1" body lift, and the only loss of travel is my Timbren off-road bumps which compress to 2.75" (so whatever that difference is over the stock bumps). I flex enough that the coils can unseat at full droop (as I found out at Moab). And no WAY is that keeping up with a true long travel front. 200s without AHC can probably get a bit more with extended travel shocks, but nothing like a true long travel a-arm kit.

I'm a broken record around here, but my vote is a 200, body lift, tundra arms (regular not long travel), 37s, and send it.

Thank you again and your go-fast ride sounds awesome! If I lived out west or could leave something out there and use it often enough, it would be fun to build out a Toyota pre-runner but I'm must not there (geographically) at the moment. Not yet anyway

As for build plans, body work, and getting more travel out of the back... I put the LX in high, crawled under, and points taken on the limited ability to gain much up travel out back. I have spent too much time under Jeeps recently and forgot how far inboard the rear UCA's are and how much stuff there is floating around back there.

 

[TeCKis300]

Yes - and having followed Monica and crew's exploits, that gives me some confidence while leaving me scratching my head as to why some people have had issues with the the Tundra rack (more on Tundras than on the 120/150 conversions). But coming back to your point ... well said!

Love this thread. I'm out camping this weekend but would love to dig in deeper.

For the moment, any discussion on steering racks loads should also be discussed alongside wheels offsets.

This thread should help

Optimum scrub radius thread

It doesn’t appear that we have a scrub radius specific thread. My understanding is that if you go taller on the tire, you’re supposed to push them farther out from the chassis in order to maintain a proper “swing” to the independent suspension arc. practically it seems that you lose some...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[TaishoCruiser]

Love this thread. I'm out camping this weekend but would love to dig in deeper.

For the moment, any discussion on steering racks loads should also be discussed alongside wheels offsets.

This thread should help

Optimum scrub radius thread

It doesn’t appear that we have a scrub radius specific thread. My understanding is that if you go taller on the tire, you’re supposed to push them farther out from the chassis in order to maintain a proper “swing” to the independent suspension arc. practically it seems that you lose some...

forum.ih8mud.com

Hope you have a great weekend out and look forward to your thoughts when you return! Loved the thread on scrub radius and that definitely informed my thinking about wheel offset.

In terms of the rack and the angle of the tie rod from the rack to the spindle/knuckle, I am not seeing a whole lot of info. That may not be a big deal or I may be lacking the appropriate vocabulary to read up. Most of what I am finding focuses on the relation of the tie rod to the LCA and getting them close to parallel if you are looking head on.

If my memory of an old thread from another forum is correct, pushing the wheelbase forward while leaving the rack in place, and the resulting longer steering arm can decrease the steering angle (not sure how much and don't recall the formula this late at night). I vaguely remember that could impacting bump steer as well, but again, not sure how big of a deal that would be for this (1 - 1.5 inch wheelbase increase with some aftermarket arms) scenario.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Monica runs a stock steering rack. Just sayin’

Builds - Canguro Racing's Monica

There have been a handful of mentions and a couple threads about specific races but we figure it was time to really document a bit more about the vehicle, how we came to race it, how we inherited the build, the things we have changed, how and what we prep and replace before each race, etc...

forum.ih8mud.com

I also believe Kurt mentioned they replace the rack every 3-4 races or something similar to that

 

[MTKID]

Thank you again and your go-fast ride sounds awesome! If I lived out west or could leave something out there and use it often enough, it would be fun to build out a Toyota pre-runner but I'm must not there (geographically) at the moment. Not yet anyway

As for build plans, body work, and getting more travel out of the back... I put the LX in high, crawled under, and points taken on the limited ability to gain much up travel out back. I have spent too much time under Jeeps recently and forgot how far inboard the rear UCA's are and how much stuff there is floating around back there.

You might gain some extra rear down-travel with a bent upper control arm on the passenger side. When I’ve crawled underneath and cycled the suspension (or flexed it as much as possible), it looked like there was quite a bit of room above it, so it could use a bent UCA on that side and increase droop without interfering with the gas tank. Then the shocks would be the next limiting factor, which could possibly come up into the rear cargo area if you were ok with it.

 

[TaishoCruiser]

You might gain some extra rear down-travel with a bent upper control arm on the passenger side. When I’ve crawled underneath and cycled the suspension (or flexed it as much as possible), it looked like there was quite a bit of room above it, so it could use a bent UCA on that side and increase droop without interfering with the gas tank. Then the shocks would be the next limiting factor, which could possibly come up into the rear cargo area if you were ok with it.

Bent UCA would be okay (or maybe a blingy billet UCA ... more crawling underneath the ride tomorrow after work.

As for shocks through the floor... at that point I'm thinking about a truck. Or dedicated fun rig . Other than Monica has anyone cut through the cab to relocate shocks on the 200? *Runs off to search

 

[nwfl4runner]

You might gain some extra rear down-travel with a bent upper control arm on the passenger side. When I’ve crawled underneath and cycled the suspension (or flexed it as much as possible), it looked like there was quite a bit of room above it, so it could use a bent UCA on that side and increase droop without interfering with the gas tank. Then the shocks would be the next limiting factor, which could possibly come up into the rear cargo area if you were ok with it.

If going that direction, would it be better to delete the tank and run something like the LRA 24 gallon as a primary tank. Then you could double triangulate the rear?

 

[TaishoCruiser]

If going that direction, would it be better to delete the tank and run something like the LRA 24 gallon as a primary tank. Then you could double triangulate the rear?

I love the idea but the design and fab for the rear would be way way over head. Checked out a long travel Tundra in Moab years ago and wondered about adapting that kit (an early version of LSK's Daily Driven Link Kit) to a 200 series but that idea stayed at the bar until you mentioned changing the link setup.

For long travel I like the idea of triangulated links vs a panhard and four link in principle... but the three linked Jeeps I have been in or wheeled with (small sample size and apples to oranges I know) have never called out to me.

If I was going to go really crazy and cut into the floor I would be tempted to see if the LSK Tundra kit would fit. I think you could swap the parallel link and panhard (parallel link for the Tundra is on the passenger side in the LSK kit) but I don't know if the trailing arms would fit (well). I have a sneaking suspicion given the difference in wheelbase that this would be a cluster. And I dont' think the LX600 rear shocks would be up for 20 inches of travel. I don't want to fall off of the AHC Long Travel bandwagon before I even get started!

 

[nwfl4runner]

I love the idea but the design and fab for the rear would be way way over head. Checked out a long travel Tundra in Moab years ago and wondered about adapting that kit (an early version of LSK's Daily Driven Link Kit) to a 200 series but that idea stayed at the bar until you mentioned changing the link setup.

For long travel I like the idea of triangulated links vs a panhard and four link in principle... but the three linked Jeeps I have been in or wheeled with (small sample size and apples to oranges I know) have never called out to me.

If I was going to go really crazy and cut into the floor I would be tempted to see if the LSK Tundra kit would fit. I think you could swap the parallel link and panhard (parallel link for the Tundra is on the passenger side in the LSK kit) but I don't know if the trailing arms would fit (well). I have a sneaking suspicion given the difference in wheelbase that this would be a cluster. And I dont' think the LX600 rear shocks would be up for 20 inches of travel. I don't want to fall off of the AHC Long Travel bandwagon before I even get started!

Yeah the problem you’ll have is shock location - with a trailing arm it’ll be right up through the rear seat/door. That’s why I’m going mezzanine on the 4runner, I want the rear seats accessible! Something like what 4wheelunderground does with coilovers mounted behind the axle is also an option.

 

[TeCKis300]

In regards to gas tank interference with the UCA...

I haven't looked into it specifically, but when I pulled the tank to replace the fuel pump, the tank location seems to be located by the straps. I wonder if there would be an opportunity to move the tank forward just a bit?

 

[MTKID]

In regards to gas tank interference with the UCA...

I haven't looked into it specifically, but when I pulled the tank to replace the fuel pump, the tank location seems to be located by the straps. I wonder if there would be an opportunity to move the tank forward just a bit?

Forward and up just a bit if you have a body lift to allow it Then smooth belly

 

[TaishoCruiser]

Yeah the problem you’ll have is shock location - with a trailing arm it’ll be right up through the rear seat/door. That’s why I’m going mezzanine on the 4runner, I want the rear seats accessible! Something like what 4wheelunderground does with coilovers mounted behind the axle is also an option.

Very cool - I learned something new as I'd never heard of a mezzanine arm setup (assuming you're talking about something like this - link to mezzaine setup for a Tacoma. ) Not to go further off track from 200 series rear setups, but since you're deep into the 3rd gen, any feedback on the Feel Good Performance 3LT?

 

[nwfl4runner]

Very cool - I learned something new as I'd never heard of a mezzanine arm setup (assuming you're talking about something like this - link to mezzaine setup for a Tacoma. ) Not to go further off track from 200 series rear setups, but since you're deep into the 3rd gen, any feedback on the Feel Good Performance 3LT?

Looks good, but it’s a short course setup so you’re 1 to 1 motion ratio. They can handle well and valving is much more straight forward, which is nice, and the job they did packaging it into the stock setup is awesome! Opt makes great stuff, I have their LCA cam eliminator kit.

the mezzanine is a harder setup but can work on an SUV by giving you much needed weight on the rear behind the axle, and a decent (2-1) motion ratio. With a tube back half and a fuel cell, I’ve finally got tons of room for a true 4-link as the foundation for it

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I also believe Kurt mentioned they replace the rack every 3-4 races or something similar to that

More often than that

We usually have noticeable rack play after 500-1000 race miles. If we were prepping for a 200-400 mile local race (Utah/Nevada) we may leave it as-is but when prepping for any bigger races, it would get a fresh race and outer TRE's FWIW.