Starter Problem need advice (1 Viewer)

[OmegaDude]

I have been chasing a white rabbit for a long time dealing with my starter on my 1996 FZJ80, and I need a fresh set of "eyes". The problem I am getting is when turning the key, nothing happens. You can tell power is being drawn from the dimming of lights, but no starter action. In the past, I would think the starter is bad, but when I take it to O'Reilly's, it tests good. I've been able to talk my way into them replacing it, but I don't think the starter is the problem. Or, there is something my truck is doing that is killing the starter. I think, since I've owned it (since 2017), I'm on my 4th starter...

This is what I have replaced chasing this issue:
1. Starter (remanufactured purchased at O'Reillys)
2. Fusible link from the battery
3. Ignition switch
4. Neutral safety switch
5. Starter relay
6. Battery terminals
7. All new battery cables (3 ground cables, positive cable battery to starter)

The pattern I've noticed, is after I have been driving for a while, and the engine is hot, I will stop somewhere, and then it won't start. I thought the issue was with the starter connector wire (the small 2 wire connector that clips into the starter). I could reach in, unplug that, plug it back in, and be good to go. However, this past Friday, I was running errands, and stopped, went into the store, came out, truck did not start, so I tried my starter connector wire unplug/plug back in trick and it did not work. I left my land cruiser at the store, came back about 3 hours later (after it all cooled off) and it started right up.

My next thing I was going to try, is to replace the starter connector wire. The problem is, that wire is part of the main engine wire, and is spliced into the main engine wire. Plus, I don't know if I could get a new wire (or build one) that had the correct connecter that connects to the starter. I thought I could build that short piece from the splice on the main engine wire to the starter. Anyway, that was my plan - I had convinced myself there is an issue with the starter connector wire, but that was until last Friday. When the starter failed, and I tried my unplug/plugin trick, the starter was really hot to the touch. I don't know if that is normal or not, given its proximity to the engine, but I'd add that to my observations. Also, I don't know/understand why temperature would effect my issue. It just might be a coincidence that I have starter issues only when the engine is hot and I've been driving around for a while; but even then, my unplug/plugin the starter connecter wire would work, until last Friday. For sh!ts and gigs, I took the starter out and took it back to O'Reillys for them to test. They tested it 4 times, and it passed each time.

My smooth brain is out of ideas...I'm hoping someone here has dealt with this, or has any other ideas for me to try. Thanks.

 

[BILT4ME]

I have been chasing a white rabbit for a long time dealing with my starter on my 1996 FZJ80, and I need a fresh set of "eyes". The problem I am getting is when turning the key, nothing happens. You can tell power is being drawn from the dimming of lights, but no starter action. In the past, I would think the starter is bad, but when I take it to O'Reilly's, it tests good. I've been able to talk my way into them replacing it, but I don't think the starter is the problem. Or, there is something my truck is doing that is killing the starter. I think, since I've owned it (since 2017), I'm on my 4th starter...

This is what I have replaced chasing this issue:
1. Starter (remanufactured purchased at O'Reillys)
2. Fusible link from the battery
3. Ignition switch
4. Neutral safety switch
5. Starter relay
6. Battery terminals
7. All new battery cables (3 ground cables, positive cable battery to starter)

The pattern I've noticed, is after I have been driving for a while, and the engine is hot, I will stop somewhere, and then it won't start. I thought the issue was with the starter connector wire (the small 2 wire connector that clips into the starter). I could reach in, unplug that, plug it back in, and be good to go. However, this past Friday, I was running errands, and stopped, went into the store, came out, truck did not start, so I tried my starter connector wire unplug/plug back in trick and it did not work. I left my land cruiser at the store, came back about 3 hours later (after it all cooled off) and it started right up.

My next thing I was going to try, is to replace the starter connector wire. The problem is, that wire is part of the main engine wire, and is spliced into the main engine wire. Plus, I don't know if I could get a new wire (or build one) that had the correct connecter that connects to the starter. I thought I could build that short piece from the splice on the main engine wire to the starter. Anyway, that was my plan - I had convinced myself there is an issue with the starter connector wire, but that was until last Friday. When the starter failed, and I tried my unplug/plugin trick, the starter was really hot to the touch. I don't know if that is normal or not, given its proximity to the engine, but I'd add that to my observations. Also, I don't know/understand why temperature would effect my issue. It just might be a coincidence that I have starter issues only when the engine is hot and I've been driving around for a while; but even then, my unplug/plugin the starter connecter wire would work, until last Friday. For sh!ts and gigs, I took the starter out and took it back to O'Reillys for them to test. They tested it 4 times, and it passed each time.

My smooth brain is out of ideas...I'm hoping someone here has dealt with this, or has any other ideas for me to try. Thanks.

I know this is going to sound purist, but stop using O'Reilly starters.

My LC "spits out" aftermarket parts.

I would switch to a Toyota reman starter. Yes, it's more money, but it will last longer.

I'll admit, I got 3 years out of my O'Reilly starter. I have recently switched back to Toyota.

You have replaced everything related to the problem except the shytty reman.

 

[Kernal]

All above plus,

@OmegaDude said:

"---the starter connector wire. The problem is, that wire is part of the main engine wire, and is spliced into the main engine wire."

Can you post up a photo of what you're seeing/describing, it's not clear if you're looking at an OEM wire or something rigged by a PO.

About the starter not working when hot, this could indicate an internal part is defective/incorrect ie: metal expands when it gets hot, clearances change, no worky. I ran into this when someone (me) installed the wrong plunger into the solenoid switch. Replaced the plunger with the correct part, no issues for the last ~10 years. Or, could be that a part that should have been replaced during the rebuild wasn't (contacts, plunger, brushes, armature, ---).

Ditto: OEM Toyota starter or maybe a Denso rebuild (RockAuto). Consider everything else to be junk.

Post up photos of the wires you're concerned about.

 

[OmegaDude]

I know this is going to sound purist, but stop using O'Reilly starters.

My LC "spits out" aftermarket parts.

I would switch to a Toyota reman starter. Yes, it's more money, but it will last longer.

I'll admit, I got 3 years out of my O'Reilly starter. I have recently switched back to Toyota.

You have replaced everything related to the problem except the shytty reman.

When I have replaced the O'Reilly starter, I get about 6-12 months without issue, then I start to worry I'll be stranded somewhere. A Toyota reman starter is about $40 more than O'Reilly, about the same without a core. Maybe you're right. If I replace the starter with a Toyota one, that basically puts me at a baseline with everything else replaced. Ugh...frustrating.

 

[OmegaDude]

All above plus,

@OmegaDude said:

"---the starter connector wire. The problem is, that wire is part of the main engine wire, and is spliced into the main engine wire."

Can you post up a photo of what you're seeing/describing, it's not clear if you're looking at an OEM wire or something rigged by a PO.

About the starter not working when hot, this could indicate an internal part is defective/incorrect ie: metal expands when it gets hot, clearances change, no worky. I ran into this when someone (me) installed the wrong plunger into the solenoid switch. Replaced the plunger with the correct part, no issues for the last ~10 years. Or, could be that a part that should have been replaced during the rebuild wasn't (contacts, plunger, brushes, armature, ---).

Ditto: OEM Toyota starter or maybe a Denso rebuild (RockAuto). Consider everything else to be junk.

Post up photos of the wires you're concerned about.

Well, that is 2 votes for Toyota starter. I'll post a pic of the small wire that connects to the starter I was unplugging/plugging back in after work today.

 

[Marco Lau]

I bet your problem is the internal wiring from the neutral safety switch to the starter signal wire. If you bypass the NSS, and just jump the signal wire with 12v, and if the starter cranks, you know your problem.

 

[OmegaDude]

I bet your problem is the internal wiring from the neutral safety switch to the starter signal wire. If you bypass the NSS, and just jump the signal wire with 12v, and if the starter cranks, you know your problem.

I will check out the wiring on the NSS, thanks for the idea!

 

[Rifleman]

Since no one else has brought it up, do you by chance still have the port installed anti theft system still installed on your truck?

 

[Chris Wilcox]

I just rebuilt my oem starter with toyota parts. Took one evening to do it in the garage behind my house. Original parts lasted 23 years. Going on 3 years of daily driving after the rebuild. Sorry I can't help but to me it sounds like something other than your starter. Something that is affected by the heat. Speaking of which, solenoids are affected by heat, ive seen it with my P0401 troubleshooting/fix. Are you absolutely sure oreiley's is replacing the solenoid or are they swapping it over on you?

 

[jonheld]

There is no starter relay on a USDM 80 Series.
Use Denso starters. Denso is the OEM.

 

[OmegaDude]

I just rebuilt my oem starter with toyota parts. Took one evening to do it in the garage behind my house. Original parts lasted 23 years. Going on 3 years of daily driving after the rebuild. Sorry I can't help but to me it sounds like something other than your starter. Something that is affected by the heat. Speaking of which, solenoids are affected by heat, ive seen it with my P0401 troubleshooting/fix. Are you absolutely sure oreiley's is replacing the solenoid or are they swapping it over on you?

Who knows what I'm getting from them...I've taken back the starter and they warranty replace it with a "new" rebuilt starter. From the replies, on this post, I have ordered a Toyota starter.

 

[OmegaDude]

After the posts on this thread, I have decided to order a Toyota reman starter. There were enough of you making that comment to make me a believer. Marco Lau above mentioned the neutral safety switch wiring. That brought me to some posts like this one:

Checking the Neutral Safety Switch Wiring - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/checking-the-neutral-safety-switch-wiring.760545/

Where the 2 main wires in the NSS harness can get corroded. There were many other posts describing my issue. I don't know why these posts did not come up when searched the forum initially. Using the wrong key words I guess. Anyway, in one of the posts I came across last night listed part numbers to repair the 2 usual problem wires:
82998-12480 :: TERMINAL, REPAIR W/W
90980-11332 :: HOUSING, CONNECTOR F

I have also ordered these parts. I tried to remove the 2 wires that go into the NSS wiring harness last night, but ran out of patience. I could not get the wire terminals out of the harness housing. Before I damaged something in my frustration, I stepped away. LOL. Hopefully, my new parts get here for the weekend.

Here is a picture of the starter connecter wire that I could unplug/plug in to get the starter to go. I'd like to replace/repair this wire end, but I have been able to find a repair part number. This is the small wire that connects to the starter.

 

[Malleus]

You don't need a new wire, if your connector housing is trash, just pull the terminal out of it and replace it:

Instructions are in the Wiring Harness Repair Manual, in the Resources section.

 

[Marco Lau]

After the posts on this thread, I have decided to order a Toyota reman starter. There were enough of you making that comment to make me a believer. Marco Lau above mentioned the neutral safety switch wiring. That brought me to some posts like this one:

Checking the Neutral Safety Switch Wiring - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/checking-the-neutral-safety-switch-wiring.760545/

Where the 2 main wires in the NSS harness can get corroded. There were many other posts describing my issue. I don't know why these posts did not come up when searched the forum initially. Using the wrong key words I guess. Anyway, in one of the posts I came across last night listed part numbers to repair the 2 usual problem wires:
82998-12480 :: TERMINAL, REPAIR W/W
90980-11332 :: HOUSING, CONNECTOR F

I have also ordered these parts. I tried to remove the 2 wires that go into the NSS wiring harness last night, but ran out of patience. I could not get the wire terminals out of the harness housing. Before I damaged something in my frustration, I stepped away. LOL. Hopefully, my new parts get here for the weekend.

Here is a picture of the starter connecter wire that I could unplug/plug in to get the starter to go. I'd like to replace/repair this wire end, but I have been able to find a repair part number. This is the small wire that connects to the starter.

View attachment 3440672

Vintageteqparts sells this plug and wire with the insulation boot. I got a new Denso starter from Matt and it also comes with all the hardware, new signal wire plug and wiring. good luck

 

[OmegaDude]

You don't need a new wire, if your connector housing is trash, just pull the terminal out of it and replace it:
View attachment 3440697

Instructions are in the Wiring Harness Repair Manual, in the Resources section.

This is awesome, thanks!

 

[OmegaDude]

Vintageteqparts sells this plug and wire with the insulation boot. I got a new Denso starter from Matt and it also comes with all the hardware, new signal wire plug and wiring. good luck

View attachment 3440704

NOICE!

 

[OmegaDude]

Update, I took apart the terminals to see if there was any corrosion. Unfortunately, they all looked good. I say unfortunately because I was hoping to see something more obvious to explain my issue besides a cheap O'Reilly's starter. Below are pics of the questionable terminals. I did order the parts to repair/replace all 3 wires and new terminal housing connectors. I have also ordered a Denso reman starter from Rockauto.com.

 

[gummycarbs]

It's a good idea to go through all the connections in the entire starter loop, cleaning them with Deoxit. Any burnt or pitted contacts should be replaced. You should also remove and clean the NSS. Not the NSS wiring connector, the NSS itself. The grease inside is probably gross and contaminated, and the contacts likely have grooves worn in them.

I had a reman Denso. It was great, but twice in a year or so it failed to start. Smacked the end with a hammer and it would start right up. I replaced the starter solenoid contacts and followed the FSM, using a hydraulic press to hold the contacts in place while tightening them. Never had another problem.

 

[JoeCova]

It's likely just low voltage to the starter itself...like everyone else.

Read the later end of this thread, I put in some advice for troubleshooting. Short version is to create a jumper wire that you can run from the starter connector directly to the battery. This bypasses all of the internal wiring which may be the issue, if even you spliced the connector wire there is a high chance that you just arent getting enough volts through that old curcuit.

94 delayed cranking. Starter, ignition switch, or other?

My issue was not the big (hot 12v) wire being corroded. It was signal wire from the ignition switch not being adequate sometimes. It could be the small wire itself, the switch or the 12v to the ignition switch. The Ford solenoid takes 12v directly from the battery to the solenoid switch...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[alia176]

I'm starting from scratch and I didn't read all of the above.

Can the OP place a simple 12vdc idiot light on the starter solenoid contact terminal (on top, single wire) then ask someone to crank the IGN key to the starting position? I'm going to assume that the idiot light will NOT come on. Speaking of idiot lights, please purchase two: one for the garage toolbox, one for the 80 spare parts box!!

If the idiot light does NOT come on, we can proceed on figuring out why is this power getting disrupted. As stated already, NSS and the two large thick ass wiring going to the NSS is where I'd start my troubleshooting.

If the idiot light DOES come on, please do the following: replace the idiot light with a volt meter, aka DVM. Place the red lead on the starter solenoid, and the black lead at the battery. Repeat above and tell us what voltage you're seeing.

If you're seeing 12vdc on the meter, you may still not have enough amps to make that solenoid go CLICK CLICK. If this is the case, we can work on the next steps.

Cheers.