Yea, sorry about the separate posts, lol.
Something timing belt-ish failed
- Thread starter chopperjamie
- Start date
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2001LC
SILVER Star
Oh I didn't see any comment or question in your post, so I ^^^???
The FSM actually has proceedure which deals with rotating off marks, during a timing belt job. The first during disassemble if not done the cams spring back on you.
There is a section dealing with assemble of complet engine, where heads and cams have been taken out. They have a procedure so we don't hit the piston top with valves (interference). But in the case of a non VVti we don't believe this matters. If it does his engine may be blown already, that is if all cams didn't happen to stop at very specific point. Which I don't think we'd have so many reports of no damage with T-belt breaks if this was the case.
The FSM actually has proceedure which deals with rotating off marks, during a timing belt job. The first during disassemble if not done the cams spring back on you.
There is a section dealing with assemble of complet engine, where heads and cams have been taken out. They have a procedure so we don't hit the piston top with valves (interference). But in the case of a non VVti we don't believe this matters. If it does his engine may be blown already, that is if all cams didn't happen to stop at very specific point. Which I don't think we'd have so many reports of no damage with T-belt breaks if this was the case.
- Thread starter
- #83
I have a FSM on order but it won't be here until next week. I would really like to at least get elbow deep into this over the long weekend. Between the information on this site and the info that @2001LC has graciously provided, I am confident I can take my time and get going on it.
2001LC
SILVER Star
Your welcome.
Weather's to cold to be out working on my project in the garage so I've some time to help out.
It's best to go step by step so don't go to deep without FSM. But then again that is with a timing belt intact.
I like to group nuts & bolt as they come out. Most are unique, but few are tricky getting in right spot right when going back together. First four are nut that hold on the fan. They have teeth like curved lines on matting surface, but latter you'll have four more nuts that look the same but don't have these teeth. A few are different lengths which you need to watch for, again grouping helps. I use magnetic dishes, plastic bags, plastic or paper cups whatever to group nuts and bolts, placing on bench in groups in order of removal.
To get a jump on: Remove #1 & #2 under engine covers (skid plate), draining coolant from block (both sides) & radiator, remove air box from, remove coolant reservoir, drive belt (turn left hand threaded bolt of tensioner pulling counter clockwise to release tension), fan & fan shroud, RH side timing cover all easy stuff.
I find the wire retainer clips on LH upper timing cover almost always broken, from previous jobs. They get frustrated and bust them off, I hate that. Most can not be replaced, I've had my parts guy look repeatedly. So take your time.
Note: You don't have to drain all coolant and can save to put back in. But seems you're planning on flushing so drain it all. I really like replacing spark plugs and heater Tee's at same time as timing belt job.
Note: Remember to put cardboard to protect radiator fins of radiator as soon as you remove shroud bolts, before pulling should and fan out together as one. In-fact it's a good idea to leave a nut loosely holding fan on, until the cardboard is in.
Note: IIRC sometimes studs come out off block or oil pump, seems one even goes into a coolant passage. Use the appropriate FIPG on threads depending on exposed, for oil 102, and for coolant 1282B FIPG if this happens
The tensioner retaining bolt must come out. I do use 102 FIPG on it's thread during install. Not sure if necessary but I do anyway. One day I'll look a t and oil pump to see.
I've a shortcut when dealing with the A/C compressor. Basically you only take out front two bolts, leaving in third which is to the rear. I do need to loosen that rear bolt sometimes, to aid in assembly, helps get stuff aligned. Theses two bolts you loosen all the way, which are threaded into fan bracket from A/C compressor. So must loosen them all the way, but can just left setting there. Then after removing the wire house from it's clip on the compressor. The clip retain will prevent the fan bracket from coming off. Just bent the retainer which is hanging up removal of fan bracket, just enough to clear and no more.
Easy access to compressor for torquing lower bolt, sweet huh.
Orientation of crank sensor sprocket is curve out.
Oh, and here's the bracket you'll need to bend.
Weather's to cold to be out working on my project in the garage so I've some time to help out.
It's best to go step by step so don't go to deep without FSM. But then again that is with a timing belt intact.
I like to group nuts & bolt as they come out. Most are unique, but few are tricky getting in right spot right when going back together. First four are nut that hold on the fan. They have teeth like curved lines on matting surface, but latter you'll have four more nuts that look the same but don't have these teeth. A few are different lengths which you need to watch for, again grouping helps. I use magnetic dishes, plastic bags, plastic or paper cups whatever to group nuts and bolts, placing on bench in groups in order of removal.
To get a jump on: Remove #1 & #2 under engine covers (skid plate), draining coolant from block (both sides) & radiator, remove air box from, remove coolant reservoir, drive belt (turn left hand threaded bolt of tensioner pulling counter clockwise to release tension), fan & fan shroud, RH side timing cover all easy stuff.
I find the wire retainer clips on LH upper timing cover almost always broken, from previous jobs. They get frustrated and bust them off, I hate that. Most can not be replaced, I've had my parts guy look repeatedly. So take your time.
Note: You don't have to drain all coolant and can save to put back in. But seems you're planning on flushing so drain it all. I really like replacing spark plugs and heater Tee's at same time as timing belt job.
Note: Remember to put cardboard to protect radiator fins of radiator as soon as you remove shroud bolts, before pulling should and fan out together as one. In-fact it's a good idea to leave a nut loosely holding fan on, until the cardboard is in.
Note: IIRC sometimes studs come out off block or oil pump, seems one even goes into a coolant passage. Use the appropriate FIPG on threads depending on exposed, for oil 102, and for coolant 1282B FIPG if this happens
The tensioner retaining bolt must come out. I do use 102 FIPG on it's thread during install. Not sure if necessary but I do anyway. One day I'll look a t and oil pump to see.
I've a shortcut when dealing with the A/C compressor. Basically you only take out front two bolts, leaving in third which is to the rear. I do need to loosen that rear bolt sometimes, to aid in assembly, helps get stuff aligned. Theses two bolts you loosen all the way, which are threaded into fan bracket from A/C compressor. So must loosen them all the way, but can just left setting there. Then after removing the wire house from it's clip on the compressor. The clip retain will prevent the fan bracket from coming off. Just bent the retainer which is hanging up removal of fan bracket, just enough to clear and no more.
Easy access to compressor for torquing lower bolt, sweet huh.
Orientation of crank sensor sprocket is curve out.
Oh, and here's the bracket you'll need to bend.
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@2001LC Man lots of good tips here. Especially the remark about the orientation of crank sensor sprocket.
@chopperjamie I think cooling drain and fill was discussed earlier so while your waiting for your FSM, dont forget to do a full cooling system drain, flush with distilled water before you start to disassemble everything.
@chopperjamie I think cooling drain and fill was discussed earlier so while your waiting for your FSM, dont forget to do a full cooling system drain, flush with distilled water before you start to disassemble everything.
- Thread starter
- #87
Well, here’s my problem!
This is a perfect example of not believing a PO when they say the timing belt was done. So far, so good.
This is a perfect example of not believing a PO when they say the timing belt was done. So far, so good.
2001LC
SILVER Star
Any pulleys, tensioner or water pump issues?
- Thread starter
- #89
@2001LC not yet. I gave everything a spin and didn’t feel or hear any grinding. I haven’t gotten much deeper than getting the belt out. The next step is the fan bracket removal so I will know more tomorrow.
I actually stopped today because I wanted to read your trick about the AC compressor.
I actually stopped today because I wanted to read your trick about the AC compressor.
2001LC
SILVER Star
Will be interesting to see what else you find in the area.
Do you see any other marking on belt to give indication of manufacture?
Do you see any other marking on belt to give indication of manufacture?
- Thread starter
- #91
The belt has a few markings on it. “Made in USA” cam markings, 298...a few that match the belt I got in the kit, but not exactly the same. The tension is way different. Much longer and I assume not made of aluminum because it rusted. I haven’t take it apart yet but I am going to and I assume it is rusted inside. That could explain the failure if it seized.
I don’t see any country of origin marking on any that other than the belt.
I don’t see any country of origin marking on any that other than the belt.
- Thread starter
- #92
The water pump impeller was broken. I think it was collateral damage after the belt broke because the broken piece was still attached and there was no marking in the water pump cavity.
2001LC
SILVER Star
Looks like you had a non OEM or OE kit in there. I've never seen a water pump do that. WP very likely the cause.
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Looks like good news so far. I hope this turns out well for you. Watching with expectation!
I was wondering that too, if the waterpump had something break off and then seize system, the belt would then be the weak link... that hole in the belt is tough to figure out too. Wierd
Is the "forensic analysis" that it WAS NOT Timing Belt failure but instead that the Water Pump failed causing the belt to break?
Possibly a piece of the water pump internal impeller broke off suddenly braking the Timing Belt from turning caused it to snap ????
If this is the case, its the Water Pump, not the Timing Belt, that we should be cautious about. Need to make sure we change coolant on regular basis and use proper coolant.
Possibly a piece of the water pump internal impeller broke off suddenly braking the Timing Belt from turning caused it to snap ????
If this is the case, its the Water Pump, not the Timing Belt, that we should be cautious about. Need to make sure we change coolant on regular basis and use proper coolant.
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2001LC
SILVER Star
Never seen a tensioner like that. It may well be contributing cause of belt failure.
Any chance you broke that water pump plastic after or during removal?
I did note a couple of marking on WP that looked non standard. But upon second look that's inconclusive. Plastic of WP looks like AISIN.
Does it turn freely & firmly, indicating bushing/bearing good or bad. I suppose if not it may have wobbled or vibrated. I expect to see coolant at weep hole if bearing bad, but sudden failure perhaps not.
I've not cut one of these WP apart to see size of passage. But maybe a foreign object was in fins of plastic impeller. Vibration blew it apart.
1) Defective WP
2) Foreign object
3) To much tension on WP pulling causing bearing failure.
4) Who knows.
If you think plastic or any foreign object entered water passages of block backflush and find it.
Any chance you broke that water pump plastic after or during removal?
I did note a couple of marking on WP that looked non standard. But upon second look that's inconclusive. Plastic of WP looks like AISIN.
Does it turn freely & firmly, indicating bushing/bearing good or bad. I suppose if not it may have wobbled or vibrated. I expect to see coolant at weep hole if bearing bad, but sudden failure perhaps not.
I've not cut one of these WP apart to see size of passage. But maybe a foreign object was in fins of plastic impeller. Vibration blew it apart.
1) Defective WP
2) Foreign object
3) To much tension on WP pulling causing bearing failure.
4) Who knows.
If you think plastic or any foreign object entered water passages of block backflush and find it.
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