- Thread starter
- #81
Yes, this is my worry. I don't want to throw money after something that won't be solid and usable.
Right tool for the job - a discussion of rig design and usage
- Thread starter Wrencher93
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- Thread starter
- #82
OK, OK! Geez guys - use the same forum that champions engine swaps and other monstrous projects to hate on the guy that mentions one haha. In all seriousness, I genuinely appreciate the input from people who have been there, done that, spent the money, and used the T-shirt to quiet the rattling bracket on the way back home.
So, with the horse well dead...
Let me summarize what I'm getting out of this discussion and point us in a more specific direction:
1.) Swaps are cool, messy, expensive, and work every time, 60% of the time.
2.) Stock drivetrain is a workhorse - slow but sturdy
3.) I'd be money ahead to keep up with the PM and pour every available dollar into the black hole that is the 80 series gas tank
I'm OK with this. More than OK, actually. So, moving the conversation forward let'stalk about the following:
1.) Assuming we keep the 1fz, pros and cons of towing a small-ish expedition style trailer
2.) Pros and cons of a second 80 instead of said trailer
3.) Modifications/useful items for LONG trips. (1000+ miles)
So, with the horse well dead...
Let me summarize what I'm getting out of this discussion and point us in a more specific direction:
1.) Swaps are cool, messy, expensive, and work every time, 60% of the time.
2.) Stock drivetrain is a workhorse - slow but sturdy
3.) I'd be money ahead to keep up with the PM and pour every available dollar into the black hole that is the 80 series gas tank
I'm OK with this. More than OK, actually. So, moving the conversation forward let'stalk about the following:
1.) Assuming we keep the 1fz, pros and cons of towing a small-ish expedition style trailer
2.) Pros and cons of a second 80 instead of said trailer
3.) Modifications/useful items for LONG trips. (1000+ miles)
I tow a ~1100 lb pop-up camper with stock gears and 315's. It kinda sucks, but doable. 2nd gear is used a lot 
My truck is on the light side, so an 1100 lb camper is probably less of a big deal than it would be for someone with all the armour and a kitchen sink.
My truck is on the light side, so an 1100 lb camper is probably less of a big deal than it would be for someone with all the armour and a kitchen sink.
thatcabledude
GOLD Star
Not advocating swapping or not, but swaps definitely don’t have to beOK, OK! Geez guys - use the same forum that champions engine swaps and other monstrous projects to hate on the guy that mentions one haha. In all seriousness, I genuinely appreciate the input from people who have been there, done that, spent the money, and used the T-shirt to quiet the rattling bracket on the way back home.
So, with the horse well dead...
Let me summarize what I'm getting out of this discussion and point us in a more specific direction:
1.) Swaps are cool, messy, expensive, and work every time, 60% of the time.
2.) Stock drivetrain is a workhorse - slow but sturdy
3.) I'd be money ahead to keep up with the PM and pour every available dollar into the black hole that is the 80 series gas tank
I'm OK with this. More than OK, actually. So, moving the conversation forward let'stalk about the following:
1.) Assuming we keep the 1fz, pros and cons of towing a small-ish expedition style trailer
2.) Pros and cons of a second 80 instead of said trailer
3.) Modifications/useful items for LONG trips. (1000+ miles)
“......messy, expensive, and work every time, 60% of the time.”
Heck, there’s even bolt in engine mounts for LS now. At this point Gen 3s are basically “bolt in” if a person can’t/doesn’t want to fabricate anything theirselves. There’s really not much “fab” to begin with to be honest.
- Thread starter
- #85
That line was meant as sarcasm but I understand your point.
I used my first 80 to tow. First trailer was a M1101, used to haul coal home for heat, two tons at a time. Trailer weighed in at 5500 lbs. The 80 did it, roughly 50 mile trip. Required rear air bags to hold up the tongue. Since I was only doing it four times a year, I made due.
Second trailer was a double axle pop up. Roughly 4000 lbs. Drug that around NH for a two week vacation. Don't do that
I beat on the poor truck, lots of time pedal to the floor in 2nd. That 80 has 37's on stock gears, which did not help matters. It did it without issue, but it was not ideal. I netted 8.5 mpg on that trip.
Just for the sake of comparison, I bought a '15 Durango and a 7k lb travel trailer last year. Drove that combo out to Yellowstone and back, netted 9 mpg. Goes without saying that was a far more comfortable ride.
If you are going to keep the trailer under 2k, the 80 will be fine, especially if you regear. Trailer brakes would be nice to have, even on a light trailer. Keep your trailer low profile, ie teardrop or cargo type trailer. I have not personally towed a travel trailer with an 80, but combining my experience with the 80 and Durango, I cannot image the 80 pulling much more than 60mph dragging a big box behind it.
Second trailer was a double axle pop up. Roughly 4000 lbs. Drug that around NH for a two week vacation. Don't do that
I beat on the poor truck, lots of time pedal to the floor in 2nd. That 80 has 37's on stock gears, which did not help matters. It did it without issue, but it was not ideal. I netted 8.5 mpg on that trip. Just for the sake of comparison, I bought a '15 Durango and a 7k lb travel trailer last year. Drove that combo out to Yellowstone and back, netted 9 mpg. Goes without saying that was a far more comfortable ride.
If you are going to keep the trailer under 2k, the 80 will be fine, especially if you regear. Trailer brakes would be nice to have, even on a light trailer. Keep your trailer low profile, ie teardrop or cargo type trailer. I have not personally towed a travel trailer with an 80, but combining my experience with the 80 and Durango, I cannot image the 80 pulling much more than 60mph dragging a big box behind it.
- Thread starter
- #87
Yeah see this is the whole reason I started pondering a diesel swap to begin with. Like @NLXTACY said earlier "build the truck for tomorrow, not today". I see myself making some rather long trips with this vehicle and there's a high probability that it will, at some point, be taking a trailer on those trips. The extra torque sure would be nice. Then again, by the time you swap in a diesel you could probably achieve similar grunt with a turbo'd 1fz - you'd just get way worse gas mileage.I tow a ~1100 lb pop-up camper with stock gears and 315's. It kinda sucks, but doable. 2nd gear is used a lot
thatcabledude
GOLD Star
10-4. There was a little bit of doom and gloom about swaps from others earlier, wasn’t sure.
If you ever find yourself over here in the Santa Rosa Beach or Defuniak Springs area give me a shout. You can take a LS swapped 80 for a spin.
- Thread starter
- #89
In my mind, a 6bt with appropriate gearing would be able to move a heavy rig like mine AND tow the additional weight of a trailer without having to crush the skinny pedal all the time. Now, that solution is not on the horizon. For the next few years I WILL be keeping the stock drivetrain and learning more about its abilities and limitations. I simply don't have the budget for another engine right now and that's OK. But since we're batting ideas around - that was what I had been dreaming of. I grew up using a cummins diesel work truck. I don't mind the sound. The tractor quality is a bonus in my opinion. But, as previously stated, a swap means that you're then the designated mechanic (I'm OK with that) and that your resale value is potentially damaged depending on the perceptions of the buyer.
- Thread starter
- #90
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Just for reference we do this. The 80 is the "go further" camping rig, my Tacoma is the daily that also becomes a hauler mule. We could fit it all in one for a long time but the kids have more fun camping when we bring their bikes, bows/arrows, sleds and other kinda bulky toys. The two driver thing is a chore but so far it's worked for us. We only take one truck if it's just the weekend.I'd love to but super long drives when the kiddos aren't able to help are made easier when you can switch drivers. Still though...second truck is tempting
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- Thread starter
- #92
Great reference point, thanks! And awesome pics!
It seem like a 5 page fishing expedition and all opinions well stay opinions unless you have a very fat wallet.
When I had a young family building a home a College fund, retirement fund and making sure my family had everything they needed was the build I was concerned about.
Don’t get me wrong I have been a gear head all my life doing my first eng. swap in 1976 at the age of 16.
But I put all of that aside to rise my two kids and put them through College.
Now that they are adults I am back to throwing my money at my TOYS.
JMHO. Party On.
When I had a young family building a home a College fund, retirement fund and making sure my family had everything they needed was the build I was concerned about.
Don’t get me wrong I have been a gear head all my life doing my first eng. swap in 1976 at the age of 16.
But I put all of that aside to rise my two kids and put them through College.
Now that they are adults I am back to throwing my money at my TOYS.
JMHO. Party On.
It’s sounding like you might be better off selling the 80 you have and begin shopping for one that’s packing some cool mods including that Cummins done correctly. Many of us are “capable” of performing a power train swap but buying one that’s been done correctly puts a guy yeas and dollars ahead in my opinion.
If fuel economy and towing are concerns that take up a considerable amount real estate in your head then the Cummins is the ticket because I don’t see any V8 combining these two attributes nearly as well. Me, I’m so into using my 80 that I barely have time to change the oil before im jonesing for another foray...... giddy up.
If fuel economy and towing are concerns that take up a considerable amount real estate in your head then the Cummins is the ticket because I don’t see any V8 combining these two attributes nearly as well. Me, I’m so into using my 80 that I barely have time to change the oil before im jonesing for another foray...... giddy up.
- Thread starter
- #95
I respect this and, make no mistake, this is a hobby and it will be sacrificed on the altar of necessity if I reach that point. The fact of the matter is my wife and I both desire to spend time as a family outside recreating with our children as they grow up and hopefully teaching them how to take care of themselves along the way. I learned many of the practical things I know now while I was a young child because I spent time camping, fishing, and working in the outdoors with my father. No, you don't need an 80 to do that. We didn't have one. But if I CAN do it with the 80 and if the 80 expands those possibilities for my family because of its uniqueness - then why would I not?
I'll put my conclusion first so you don't have to read my essay.
Bottom line: Without significant investment ($20k would probably do it. $5k would probably do it in many cases.), I don't believe that these fantastic vehicles are still right as the primary family daily driver and significant adventure vehicle for most families that live on a budget. I think they are aging and need some additional love and service before you can count on them the way I did 10 years ago.
I haven't read any of the other posts in this thread yet. I will, but I don't want them to flavor my response. My 97 LX450 has 220k+ on it and is used exactly for this. It is our primary family vehicle and gets 15-20k miles per year, except for COVID years. We take it on 4-7 challenging off-road trips a year. Engaging lockers, driving too fast over rough conditions, lots of flex and weight with 3-6 people and all their gear for 2-6 days.
Emissions aren't great. The electrical wiring is brittle in some places, factory solders are starting to fail. Body mounts and engine mounts want to be replaced. Basically, anything plastic and rubber is dry and brittle. The leather is dry and cracked, or split. The front seats need to be replaced. It's time, once again, for new shocks. The exhaust is rusty and held together with spot welds and hope.
I think that any vehicle that only gets standard maintenance and gets driven a lot will be in similar condition. It's time to invest some money into this vehicle. HOWEVER, 3 years ago when I was fighting with electrical issues and learned more than I ever wanted to know about the EWD for this vehicle and how to rebuild wiring harnesses I told my wife we need to get a different daily driver and use this for adventure trips and vacations. We never did that. I wish we had. I love my 80 series, but it is aging. Without real investment of time and money into the foundational systems that make these rigs fantastic, they won't stay that way as daily drivers. I believe that the 200k mile/25 year standard maintenance should include:
- replacing body and engine mounts,
-replace the exhaust system (or budget to do it in the next 2 years),
-replace leather and foam parts in the interior,
-inspect and repair or replace all wiring in the engine bay, under the vehicle, in the kick panels, and under the carpets.
-Anything rubber needs to be replaced.
-Clean the air ducts and fan and relubricate everything that moves, from the blower fan to the heater controls cable, to the sunroof, windows, etc.
-It should include fresh undercoating with fluid film or other product of your choice. If you have to remove everything first and clean it so that you can, that's part of it.
-The head gasket should be replaced and as part of that process the "while you're in there" stuff should all be done. A top-end refresh.
I think the vehicle is fantastic as engineered from Toyota, but daily driving and regular moderate to difficult off-road driving for 25 years makes it time for a reboot. I can't afford to do all that, so it is doomed to fall into more disrepair. I will maintain it mechanically, but it's going to squeak and ride rough and the exhaust is going to break any kind of climate conventions out there, and it is going to continue to need maintenance I can't give it right now, because it's our daily driver and can't come offline for weeks or months at a time.
Bottom line: Without significant investment ($20k would probably do it. $5k would probably do it in many cases.), I don't believe that these fantastic vehicles are still right as the primary family daily driver and significant adventure vehicle for most families that live on a budget. I think they are aging and need some additional love and service before you can count on them the way I did 10 years ago.
I haven't read any of the other posts in this thread yet. I will, but I don't want them to flavor my response. My 97 LX450 has 220k+ on it and is used exactly for this. It is our primary family vehicle and gets 15-20k miles per year, except for COVID years. We take it on 4-7 challenging off-road trips a year. Engaging lockers, driving too fast over rough conditions, lots of flex and weight with 3-6 people and all their gear for 2-6 days.
Emissions aren't great. The electrical wiring is brittle in some places, factory solders are starting to fail. Body mounts and engine mounts want to be replaced. Basically, anything plastic and rubber is dry and brittle. The leather is dry and cracked, or split. The front seats need to be replaced. It's time, once again, for new shocks. The exhaust is rusty and held together with spot welds and hope.
I think that any vehicle that only gets standard maintenance and gets driven a lot will be in similar condition. It's time to invest some money into this vehicle. HOWEVER, 3 years ago when I was fighting with electrical issues and learned more than I ever wanted to know about the EWD for this vehicle and how to rebuild wiring harnesses I told my wife we need to get a different daily driver and use this for adventure trips and vacations. We never did that. I wish we had. I love my 80 series, but it is aging. Without real investment of time and money into the foundational systems that make these rigs fantastic, they won't stay that way as daily drivers. I believe that the 200k mile/25 year standard maintenance should include:
- replacing body and engine mounts,
-replace the exhaust system (or budget to do it in the next 2 years),
-replace leather and foam parts in the interior,
-inspect and repair or replace all wiring in the engine bay, under the vehicle, in the kick panels, and under the carpets.
-Anything rubber needs to be replaced.
-Clean the air ducts and fan and relubricate everything that moves, from the blower fan to the heater controls cable, to the sunroof, windows, etc.
-It should include fresh undercoating with fluid film or other product of your choice. If you have to remove everything first and clean it so that you can, that's part of it.
-The head gasket should be replaced and as part of that process the "while you're in there" stuff should all be done. A top-end refresh.
I think the vehicle is fantastic as engineered from Toyota, but daily driving and regular moderate to difficult off-road driving for 25 years makes it time for a reboot. I can't afford to do all that, so it is doomed to fall into more disrepair. I will maintain it mechanically, but it's going to squeak and ride rough and the exhaust is going to break any kind of climate conventions out there, and it is going to continue to need maintenance I can't give it right now, because it's our daily driver and can't come offline for weeks or months at a time.
Because they get terrible gas mileage and if it breaks down most mechanics don't know how to work on it and the parts are hard to get. Hell even a lot of Toyota dealer don't have tech's that know there way around a 80 series.
When I had the Kids at home the vehicle of choice was a full size ford van with 4 captains chairs and a fold down bench bed in the back. I could get all the camping gear, the Dog, surf boards, the porta potty for those potty brakes and tow a trailer all well going up hill faster and getting better gas mileage then a 80.
Just Sayin, I love my 80 there's just nothing practical about them
- Thread starter
- #98
Again, a realistic and respectable response. Admittedly, I was naive about certain aspects of this when I bought my 80. I'm not anymore. I've just refreshed the simpler things on the engine (plugs, wires, gaskets, most hoses, etc.) and I already have the parts to put all new OEM bushings in as well as rebuild the brakes in their entirety minus the booster. I know these trucks don't self-heal and I know mine needs some attention. Honestly, if I were to rewind I wouldn't have bought a vehicle, at the time I did, at all. I certainly wouldn't have bought an 80. Not because it isn't awesome, but because the points you make are extremely valid. As it is, I've already made that decision and I plan to make the best of it - and that means having a plan and a vision for its use.
- Thread starter
- #99
Granted. The word "practical" was never mentioned by me, though.
Cool. Then, consider adding a critical component to it before you go off-road: You need someone else's common sense. I beat the crap out of mine offroad. I'm not kind, and I'm not wise. I get home and I need an alignment, new TRE's, new steering gear ($800 - $1,300!), my exhaust needs to be repaired because a hanger broke or I pinched it, I abuse the birf's, the lockers, and everything else. When I get home, unless I've got $1,000 sitting around, it will sometimes limp for a few months until I can fix what I broke. I try to be good to it, but I just can't! I lose patience on a trail, I try something I shouldn't have, or I just want to flip mud in the face of the b@st*rd in the Jeep that smirked at me on the way in to the trail.
If it's your daily driver AND your fun vehicle, moderate your fun or plan your budget. I have a sticker on my dash that says, "Remember stupid, you have to drive it home."
It didn't help on my last trip. You have been warned.
-Remote reservoir shocks are a wise investment for doing 60MPH on washboard roads.
If it's your daily driver AND your fun vehicle, moderate your fun or plan your budget. I have a sticker on my dash that says, "Remember stupid, you have to drive it home."
It didn't help on my last trip. You have been warned.
-Remote reservoir shocks are a wise investment for doing 60MPH on washboard roads.
