Right tool for the job - a discussion of rig design and usage (1 Viewer)

[Wrencher93]

Ok, so let's take care of the admin stuff first, shall we?
Yes, I have read other threads.
Yes, I know the search function works.
Yes, I know there is no clear cut answer to the questions I'm about to ask because, well, it's like asking what type of pizza is the best.

So, for those up for a friendly and informative discussion about the build process as a whole - welcome and please share whatever information you feel is relevant and useful.

Let me get down to the point by laying out the questions I hope to answer for myself (or at least get closer to an answer):

1.) If you were going to use your 80 as a family adventure vehicle (as many of us do) capable of both moderate to hard wheeling as well as seeing many highway miles - what would your choice build look like in terms of engine/transmission, lift height, tire size, etc? I realize this is a massively broad question - it is meant to be. I want opinions. Facts are welcome and I want the opinions to be based on reasonable arguments but this isn't a "how to" thread this is an exercise in imagination and long term decision making.

2.) If you were starting with a 1997 FZJ80 with 249k miles, 2" lift, and 35's with stock gears - which of the following (if any) would you pursue?
a.) Engine rebuild and Wit's End turbo
b.) Cummins 6bt swap with Toyota trans
c.) Cummins 6bt with manual trans
d.) Toyota engine swap (fill in the blank)
e.) LS swap (which one?)
f.) PM the heck out of it and leave it the hell alone (also read, keep stock)

Let me fill in a few gaps by sharing my personal reqiurements/wants for my truck.
Requirements:
1.) Gets me where I need to go (read reliable)
2.) Has reasonable parts availability over the next decade, or more. Doesn't have to be the cheapest or MOST common - but available enough that it won't be a total witch hunt for parts when I need them.
3.) Can be driven thousands of miles with no issue, assuming a sane driver and reasonable PM
Wants:
1.) Enjoyable to drive both offroad and at highway speeds
2.) Enough power to pass on the interstate
3.) OK gas mileage - notice I said "OK" not "good"
4.) Makes sense financially - that doesn't mean "cheap" or "practical" it means "am I getting a return, in terms of experience, that is comparable to how much coin I'm dropping on this project?"

There ya, go. Flame suit on.

 

[BILT4ME]

How big is your theoretical wallet?

 

[Wrencher93]

More insight: I've been toying with these ideas ever since I became a Mud member in 2018. I have a young, likely-to-get-bigger family and a passion for being outdoors. My 80 is fairly well built but in my opinion still needs a lot of work to be what I need it to be. I'm not unhappy - far from it - just trying to build a vision of the destination before I get too far into the journey if that makes sense. For example, an engine swap sounds cool and definitely has certain benefits (more power/torque, maybe greater range, etc) but it's also way more involved than, say, a turbo upgrade. What I don't want to do is dump thousands of dollars into building the rig further only to realize that I built it in a way that doesn't suit me. We all want the unicorn truck. The question is - how close can we actually get? That is what I hope to explore here. I want to be able to jump in this thing and drive to the west coast (or wherever else I choose) and know that 1.) I'm going to get there barring something bizarre happening 2.) If I break down I can reasonably expect to fix it myself 3.) That I won't hate my life 3 hours into my trip because I spent money on the wrong parts of my truck.

 

[Wrencher93]

How big is your theoretical wallet?

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, 20k. I'm not doing any modifications at the moment but I do expect to in the future.

 

[BILT4ME]

1) More HP and more torque typically equate to less reliability if over the originally intended design.

2) Amount of lift will change the degree of lower level modifications needed.

3) A heavier engine will change the dynamics of the structural integrity of the build and could influence the ultimate end goal by contradicting the "need" for it.

4) The amount of money "reasonable" relates to, depends on who you are and what your financial means are. Joe Rogan's level of "reasonable" is well beyond what I would remotely consider reasonable.

 

[Azca]

I have had my 80 for almost 8 years now with about 60 to 70k miles on it. Used for moderate off roading, camping, hunting, fishing and some towing. Since it was a DD, I did not want to hit the harder trails but now that I am armored up and it is no longer a DD, I will be playing with it more. Since starting I have rebuilt the engine and added many goodies along the way including bumpers, lift, winch etc. So, my suggestions:

Engine: I wanted to do a V8 swap but time, money, and results just don't seem to add up. So, my next major purchase would be the Wits end turbo kit. For the money, power, time, I don't think you get better bang for the buck. After my rebuild, I saw a significant increase in power as well but need more.

Driveability: If you don't have the delta arms and panhard bracket, get them. Some of the best money I have spent on the rig. Get the low range reduction gears. Second best money I have spent on the rig. If you can, I would go with 4:88s (based upon your description of use) for the diffs. I love my 10%UD gears but, they whine a bit (like audio hum and in no way loud, you have to listen for it). I don't find it all distracting and love the performance gain. Good bang for the buck. But, I will probably go 4:88s or higher in the future.

Tires: 35s are a good setup. At 37, price goes up significantly, not just for rubber but for everything. Suspension mods go way up, DC drive shaft(s), etc. Additionally, it places significant stress on the drivetrain and can lead to additional failures. That said, as long as you are not an animal on the gas pedal, many love the 37s and talk about how much easier the trails are, as long as you don't mash the skinny pedal.

I have MTs. If you don't like noise, drive in the wet or snow, or have many highway miles, I would go with an AT. Tires are a whole new can of worms so, for now, just work on the type. For me, since I am not in snow country and don't go often, MTs are worth the tradeoffs for off road performance gains.

Suspension: I know many like firm suspensions and the cornering/high speed driving you gain from them. Not me. I like comfort (also, a family member gets migraines and firm is no good). So softer springs (also more compliant) and softer shocks, preferably adjustable.

Other than that, stay with OEM. It seems that when I stray from that, I have issues. Spend the money up front so you don't have to spend it again later at the most inopportune times...

 

[NMC_EXP]

f.) PM the heck out of it and leave it the hell alone (also read, keep stock)

(f) Should satisfy most of your requirements. If the stock powertrain is worn out, rebuild it and enjoy. If you need more pulling power reduce tire height (and width) and save wear and tear on steering components in the process. Plus less rotating mass means marginal improvement in braking and acceleration.

 

[Wrencher93]

1) More HP and more torque typically equate to less reliability if over the originally intended design.

2) Amount of lift will change the degree of lower level modifications needed.

3) A heavier engine will change the dynamics of the structural integrity of the build and could influence the ultimate end goal by contradicting the "need" for it.

4) The amount of money "reasonable" relates to, depends on who you are and what your financial means are. Joe Rogan's level of "reasonable" is well beyond what I would remotely consider reasonable.

All fair points. Especially number 4. Let's take them in turn so as to attempt to maintain the readability of the thread.

1.) I realize more hp and torque will theoretically decrease reliability and part service life, assuming no other major modifications are made. However, it is my current understanding of the 1fz-fe platform that it is intentionally overbuilt and under-stressed - leading to it's famously long life and reputation for being "bullet proof". That being the case, I question whether a mild amount of boost would be worse for the engine than the constant lugging I currently expose it to by having a heavy truck with larger than stock tires. My educated guess would be that the result of something like the Wit's End turbo would not appreciably shorten the life of this engine any more than the high-load-low-rpm situation in which it finds itself. Now, that is an assumption based on my reading and I am more than happy to learn more about the topic.

2.) I currently have a 2" lift and run 315/75r16 Goodyear Wrangler MTR tires. TJM springs in front, OME heavies in rear with TJM shocks all around. I have another thread which I think you're aware of, in which I am documenting the repairs and maintenance of my 80. I am about to add @landtank caster plates and replace all suspension bushings with OEM. The only other thing that may need to be addressed is a panhard lift bracket but I'm going to see what effect the plates and bushings have first.

3.) A good point about vehicle dynamics and structural integrity of the frame and suspension. However, it seems that all of the swap options I mentioned have been successfully executed at some point and I am not opposed to modifying the chassis to accommodate the new power plant should I go that route.

4.) As I said, excellent point and that magic number will probably change over time. I do expect ANY of these options to cost well over 10k by the time I'm done. Turbo is 6k in parts alone and that would be one of the "cheaper" options. I know we're talking about significant amounts of money - which is why I want to make sure I'm pointed in the right direction with a realistic idea of what's achievable.

 

[Wrencher93]

I have had my 80 for almost 8 years now with about 60 to 70k miles on it. Used for moderate off roading, camping, hunting, fishing and some towing. Since it was a DD, I did not want to hit the harder trails but now that I am armored up and it is no longer a DD, I will be playing with it more. Since starting I have rebuilt the engine and added many goodies along the way including bumpers, lift, winch etc. So, my suggestions:

Engine: I wanted to do a V8 swap but time, money, and results just don't seem to add up. So, my next major purchase would be the Wits end turbo kit. For the money, power, time, I don't think you get better bang for the buck. After my rebuild, I saw a significant increase in power as well but need more.

Driveability: If you don't have the delta arms and panhard bracket, get them. Some of the best money I have spent on the rig. Get the low range reduction gears. Second best money I have spent on the rig. If you can, I would go with 4:88s (based upon your description of use) for the diffs. I love my 10%UD gears but, they whine a bit (like audio hum and in no way loud, you have to listen for it). I don't find it all distracting and love the performance gain. Good bang for the buck. But, I will probably go 4:88s or higher in the future.

Tires: 35s are a good setup. At 37, price goes up significantly, not just for rubber but for everything. Suspension mods go way up, DC drive shaft(s), etc. Additionally, it places significant stress on the drivetrain and can lead to additional failures. That said, as long as you are not an animal on the gas pedal, many love the 37s and talk about how much easier the trails are, as long as you don't mash the skinny pedal.

I have MTs. If you don't like noise, drive in the wet or snow, or have many highway miles, I would go with an AT. Tires are a whole new can of worms so, for now, just work on the type. For me, since I am not in snow country and don't go often, MTs are worth the tradeoffs for off road performance gains.

Suspension: I know many like firm suspensions and the cornering/high speed driving you gain from them. Not me. I like comfort (also, a family member gets migraines and firm is no good). So softer springs (also more compliant) and softer shocks, preferably adjustable.

Other than that, stay with OEM. It seems that when I stray from that, I have issues. Spend the money up front so you don't have to spend it again later at the most inopportune times...

A fair reply and I thank you for the advice. I'm happy with the suspension the way it is for now. I currently have MT's and don't mind the noise. I have, however, seriously considered trying an AT because of the many highway miles and ice/snow traction. Undecided as to what my next set of tires will be. I don't have the money for Delta arms at the moment but I will be correcting the caster soon and look forward to improved driveability. The panhard bracket is on my list.

 

[BILT4ME]

All fair points. Especially number 4. Let's take them in turn so as to attempt to maintain the readability of the thread.

1.) I realize more hp and torque will theoretically decrease reliability and part service life, assuming no other major modifications are made. However, it is my current understanding of the 1fz-fe platform that it is intentionally overbuilt and under-stressed - leading to it's famously long life and reputation for being "bullet proof". That being the case, I question whether a mild amount of boost would be worse for the engine than the constant lugging I currently expose it to by having a heavy truck with larger than stock tires. My educated guess would be that the result of something like the Wit's End turbo would not appreciably shorten the life of this engine any more than the high-load-low-rpm situation in which it finds itself. Now, that is an assumption based on my reading and I am more than happy to learn more about the topic.

2.) I currently have a 2" lift and run 315/75r16 Goodyear Wrangler MTR tires. TJM springs in front, OME heavies in rear with TJM shocks all around. I have another thread which I think you're aware of, in which I am documenting the repairs and maintenance of my 80. I am about to add @landtank caster plates and replace all suspension bushings with OEM. The only other thing that may need to be addressed is a panhard lift bracket but I'm going to see what effect the plates and bushings have first.

3.) A good point about vehicle dynamics and structural integrity of the frame and suspension. However, it seems that all of the swap options I mentioned have been successfully executed at some point and I am not opposed to modifying the chassis to accommodate the new power plant should I go that route.

4.) As I said, excellent point and that magic number will probably change over time. I do expect ANY of these options to cost well over 10k by the time I'm done. Turbo is 6k in parts alone and that would be one of the "cheaper" options. I know we're talking about significant amounts of money - which is why I want to make sure I'm pointed in the right direction with a realistic idea of what's achievable.

I state those points because I've done them with multiple vehicles throughout my life.

When I was younger, I craved HP, but only had a little money. I did what I could and later learned that the more HP I built, it just moved the "fuse" somewhere else. By the time I got done chasing it, I started a family and it no longer fit the life requirements.

Then I had no money, just desires, and nothing happened.

Then kids got older and my income was higher. Now I don't have the time to do it all, and I don't have the desire to pay some other moron to do a half ass job of what I want him to do.

So, I am completely happy with a slightly modified, slower FZJ that will do my daily needs and help me be a little cool while taking me slowly and reliably where I want to go......

 

[Wrencher93]

I state those points because I've done them with multiple vehicles throughout my life.

When I was younger, I craved HP, but only had a little money. I did what I could and later learned that the more HP I built, it just moved the "fuse" somewhere else. By the time I got done chasing it, I started a family and it no longer fit the life requirements.

Then I had no money, just desires, and nothing happened.

Then kids got older and my income was higher. Now I don't have the time to do it all, and I don't have the desire to pay some other moron to do a half ass job of what I want him to do.

So, I am completely happy with a slightly modified, slower FZJ that will do my daily needs and help me be a little cool while taking me slowly and reliably where I want to go......

That's fair. Honestly I don't mind the power level of the 1fz as much as I mind the lugging. You can almost feel the engine begging you for a higher rpm range to compensate for the load. I may end up being happy with a set of 4.88's. Even if I turbo the truck I plan on gears first.

 

[Wrencher93]

The other problem with the turbo is mandatory premium fuel. People shrug that off with comments like "you drive a modified land cruiser, deal with it" and while I get where they're coming from with that you can't deny that a 30% (or more) hike in fuel prices on an already inefficient engine doesn't really hurt the wallet.

 

[Wrencher93]

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is: if I keep the 1fz (which I am, for now) what do I do when it finally kicks the bucket? Do I rebuild it and go full send for another 300k miles? Or would it be more prudent to swap in something of comparable reliability (cough, cough, 6bt) and have more torque and better mpg (no, you won't gain the money for the swap back but you can drive it a hell of a lot more)?

 

[White Stripe]

How many people in your family and what do you view as hard wheeling exactly? Those I would consider important considerations before going any further.

 

[Wrencher93]

People talk about how "x number of dollars for a swap is a heck of a lot of gas money" and it is...but not as much as you would think at 10-ish mpg over multiple years. If this vehicle was only driven 3-5k miles a year, sure. Just fill 'er up and go. But I plan to drive it much more than that if I can afford it so mileage begins to matter.

 

[Wrencher93]

How many people in your family and what do you view as hard wheeling exactly? Those I would consider important considerations before going any further.

Currently am married with a 1 year old son and a 70lb doberman mix. Probably have more kids in the future so the rig needs to be able to fit at least four people + dog and gear. I want a trailer for the gear eventually so no problem there. At that point the 80 would just need to haul the people and pets and have enough grunt to pull the trailer. By "Hard wheeling" I mean situations where armor and winches are warranted and you might not get out if you pick the wrong line. I don't plan to go rock-bashing with this thing but I'm also not a fan of being turned back by obstacles. Tough trails and very remote camping are on the "want to do" list.

 

[Wrencher93]

Pictures of the 80 as she sits now.

And with the tent...

 

[Wrencher93]

Here's a highlight list of the current modifications:
2" lift (see previous reply to @BILT4ME )
315/75r16 Goodyear MTR tires
Metaltech tube front bumper with large stinger
Slee rear bumper with dual swing outs
Frontrunner roof rack
Tapui Autana Sky tent
ARB touring canopy
Lots of lights
Engo 10k winch
Outpost offroad rock sliders

 

[Wrencher93]

Drive train is 100% stock to my knowledge. 1fz-fe with 249k miles.

 

[Wrencher93]

1997 FZJ80 Rehabilitation
This is my other thread for those you looking for more information about the vehicle and what I'm working on. Some of you have already seen the thread and commented on it but I'll leave this here for anyone coming behind.