Okay, Now I'm Completely Convinced: ALL Original HG's Are Actively Failing!

[turbocruiser]

I think your gasket was failing and before too long you would have noticed coolant loss. At that point you would have needed to do something.

I agree 100% I think that's the way I wanted to frame this whole picture from the start.

If you think your head was warping, why didn't you take it to a machine shop and at least have it checked?

Maybe you missed several posts here but I did take it to the shop robbie recommends - super sharp people - they took two thousandths off at a time til the thing was flat which added up to 8 thousandths - I also had them perform total head service w/ valves, valve seats, etc as that made sense with the head off.

I think an aluminum head on a cast block on an I-6 will eventually have head gasket issues. I think the 1FZ is a good enough engine that we could do just a head gasket on a 150,000 mile engine. I also think most mechanics will think it's nuts to do so, but we know better.

I agree 100%, again!!!

Are the people who have had failures finding cracked heads or bent heads? (heads too warped to refinish)

Both I think, varying case by case - mine was bent, Doug's was cracked, two anal-retentive worry warts who maintain like mad!!! Go Figure!

I guess I'm in the position where if mine goes I can fix it at my leasure. I don't have the time or money to be chasing things that are only potential problems. With 4 cruisers I have enough active problems to keep me busy.

I agree again - I'm not in that position either by personal skill or by robbie's leasurely schedule so it was do it now or never. I'm glad I got it now! Again, with yer skills and yer shop you prolly dont havta think the same way. Lucky Bastard!

I guess I'm being a Devil's advocate here. Of course doing PM maintenance is better than not. What NEEDS to be done vs. what could be done is a huge difference. I mean, nobody has changed their timing chains with the heads off. I realize it's a huge job, but if your chain breaks while you are on vacation, you are seriously hosed. How many 22Rs were junked after the chain broke and took out the head? It would be better to put new bearings and rings in at 150,000 miles too.

Yea but cant the bearings and rings be done below with the head on when I want? Besides, I dont think we have seen similar problems with bearings and rings whereas we, and now me, have with the headgasket.

I think the thing here is, (cause like I wrote above I dont know as much or even half as much so its not me rude, its just me learning alot by arguing with people who know more than me!!! ) ... you can play chicken easier than I can and I think that sways your 'spective. Later.

 

[turbocruiser]

Headgasketpalooza!!

3-4 days of fun and grease in scenic Naperville, IL

Itinerary

Evening 1: arrive in Naperville. dinner and imbibing at the Gumbys' while pre-viewing IDoug's HG video. (please refrain from oogling the wife or daughter )

Day 2: mass 1FZE tear down at the shop.

Day 3: drop off heads at machine shop and head into the city to the Museum of Sci and Ind or the archetectural boat tour (my two favorite things to do in the city). More food and drinks.

Day 4: reassemble motors with parts mass ordered from cdan. Celebratory #6s. (that would be the Ozzy #6, not JMan's)

Day 5: test wheeling at the Cliffs.

i figure we could accomidate 6-7 rigs at a time in the shop.

Sounds awesome, since mine will be done, I'll be a tool monkey for someone else!

 

[turbocruiser]

Gum there is validity to "If it aint broke, don't fix it". I agree with that completely. What has me torn here is the fact that every salvaged gasket I have seen has failed, or was failing, in almost exactly the same place and in the same manner. That pattern of failure is what I'm thinking about and also the fact that it does not appear that there are any other common denominators involved.
You and I both suffer badly from "while it's apart syndrome" and a simple head gasket could end up being a frame-off by the time we got finished...

Well put!

 

[Gumby]

Maybe you missed several posts here but I did take it to the shop robbie recommends - super sharp people - they took two thousandths off at a time til the thing was flat which added up to 8 thousandths - I also had them perform total head service w/ valves, valve seats, etc as that made sense with the head off.

I did miss that. I must have misread. It must have been someone else who just did the gasket.

Yea but cant the bearings and rings be done below with the head on when I want? Besides, I dont think we have seen similar problems with bearings and rings whereas we, and now me, have with the headgasket.

I think the thing here is, (cause like I wrote above I dont know as much or even half as much so its not me rude, its just me learning alot by arguing with people who know more than me!!! ) ... you can play chicken easier than I can and I think that sways your 'spective. Later.

You're probably right. I can wait until it needs to be done, so that does make a difference for me. A $1-2000 bill without touching the bottom end is too spendy for me when nothing's broken. it's unlikely to blow in such a way that I have to pay someone else to do it, or that it will damage something else before I catch it.

The bearings and rings need to have the head pulled. The rod bearings can be done, kind of, with the head on, but the mains need the engine pulled and the rings need the head off at least.


Cdans absolutely right. If I did the job for myself it would cost a whole lot more because I would need to just handle a whole bunch of stuff while I'm in there. I might as well jack up the radiator cap and slide a new truck under there.

 

[turbocruiser]

Cool!

 

[e9999]

for those of us who don't need the rig as a DD and could stand seeing it in parts for a week or 2, the main question as to deciding whether to do the HG as PM seems to be whether a HG failure will be sudden or not, and if sudden, whether it is likely to lead to very costly repairs or not, given common sense incident aftermath reactions. If unlikely to lead to major damage, then it may be OK to wait. Personally, I've rigged an audible alarm on my coolant temp system so hopefully, I'll have a couple of minutes to shut things down in case of sudden failure.

Of course, that's not much consolation if it fails in the middle of Death Valley. But then again, that's true of many mechanical parts on the thing. So it's a matter of personal comfort zone.

In the meantime, I think we should keep an eye on the coolant level in the overflow tank, and do the bubble test every so often. Both trivial things to do and much peace of mind...

 

[semlin]

I can vouch for the doing it right while you are there issue. Here's my current list of non-essential items that it made sense to replace at 152k. they add up big time.

-alt brushes
-starter contacts
-fuel filter
-clean injectors and rail
-fuel pump regulator
-valve grind and valves reset
-fan clutch
-all new hoses
-new heat wrap for harness
-new chain tensioner

I might as well have pulled the bottom end. In fact, I have been sorely tempted but the absence of ring wear or metal in the oil has convinced me to hold off on that.

 

[Beowulf]

07 GSJ15 manual, rear locker, ordered, deposit paid, waiting

Kewl!

-B-

 

[cpg]

How many have over 200k without a head gasket?
Does your service dept at American Toyota get a lot of 80's Dan?
The Local dealer here has only had 2 80's come in for head gaskets both drove in. I wonder how many 80's are on the road today compared to the poll on this list.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Rick,

Good one. I was thinking the same thing, then paged down and got a good chuckle out of your "IdahoDoug could have typed this a year ago" comment. Too true, too true.

DougM

 

[cruiserdan]

How many have over 200k without a head gasket?
Does your service dept at American Toyota get a lot of 80's Dan?
The Local dealer here has only had 2 80's come in for head gaskets both drove in. I wonder how many 80's are on the road today compared to the poll on this list.

We do head gaskets rarely. It is an expensive job "at the dealer" and I will be the first to agree.

 

[powderpig]

Just a FYI, the main bearing can be installed with the engine in the engine bay. I have spun in the rods and mains on this engine from underneath. Not the easiest, but doable. So a inframe is possiable to do, the hardest is to hone the cylinders with the block still in frame. It it doable again, and you can protect the bearings failry well, you would just have to wash the bottom end after honeing the cylinder walls. then spin in the bearings. A shop would not warranty this type of job, too much liablilty. But a good do it your self guy would not have too much trouble, and have a good product that could go many miles.
later robbie

 

[turbocruiser]

As an update, Robbie just finished his fabulous work! The truck sounds sweet - so smooth, soooo silky smooth. I'm going to go super gentle for a few thousand miles with oil and coolant changes at about 500 miles and then again at 1000. So many thanks to Robbie, he's a completely cool human and an amazing mechanic as well.

Some things I think I learned:

My experience with Mobil 1 was that there was definitely a difference in sludge and wear all around. If I interpreted right there was a very slight varnish that yellowed things but no excess sludge. Also if I understand right there was minimal wear. I think the truth is that the shorter intervals make things look a little prettier but not necessarily make things wear less??? Who knows, I was just trying to keep up!

My experience with the BG Products is that the intake in general from the throttle body to about halfway through the upper plenum was relatively clean considering the last time the intake cleaning was 6K ago. However from about halfway through the top and all through the bottom half of the plenum was something so thick and so strong that nothing short of soaking in solvents at the machine shop overnight would get it clean. From this I think I learned that the spray can solvents used regularly can help some but not much. My injectors were really in pretty good shape with only a 4.3% variance and none flowing below 300. When they were serviced they came back slightly higher at 304 and all within .6% from highest to lowest. I use BG 44K about every 5 to 7.5K and try to do that just prior to oil changes and I think that might have helped the injectors significantly. Lastly, the combustion chamber in general looked relatively clean and although I cannot say for sure that the 44K does that too, I'll give a guess it helps some.

I think that the regular cooling system complete flushings do help however they still do not fix the potential problems with the older HG design. I do think that the flushings are what allows for a really clean cooling system which I think that I had. And I do think that a really clean cooling system is really cool running one but I do not think that this prevents HG failures specifically. Bummer, but just what my experience has emphasized to me.

While everything was apart all the vacuum hoses as well as all the cooling system and heater core hoses were replaced, there 'taint a scrap of original rubber on the truck save for the rear heater hoses under the floorboards which I will work at a little later. Also there's a ton of little orings, gaskets, seals and stuff that are replaced and that can help in all sorts of ways.

I'm so happy I was able to get this done. The main thing I learned is the experience and expertise of someone really skilled like Robbie is a wonderful thing to watch. He makes stuff that takes me trial after trial to get right look easy, not that I'm comparing myself to the man but the point is the difference between clutzy& confused (me) and artfully talented (him) in everything from simple nuts and bolts to complicated work of this type. Anyways, gotta go, thanks all. I'll update as much as you want.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Nice to hear, and great to listen to someone describe a master at work. That's a rare treat indeed.

DougM

 

[Beowulf]

Great post turbo!

-B-

 

[turbocruiser]

Great post turbo!

-B-

Thanks B!

 

[txtortoise]

Sounds great, particularly since you got in under the wire with Robbie..now that he's off on the perfect 8 month vacation.

So how many folks are going to be queue'd at his doorstep in Nov/Dec?

Thanks B!

 

[Romer]

I agree with you Turbo. Thats why I went to Robbie. Other places you don't know if your going to get a new tech, a Chrysler mechanics or a Toyota Master mechanic. Something like this requires experience and the proper skill set. I live 1 mile from a Toyota Dealer, 3 miles for another shop full of Toyota Certified master Mechanics (ToyCar Care) and I still took it 45 miles north to Robbie. Imagine going to a shop that didn't even have Toyota certified mechanics for something like this. That would make me nervous. Kind of like having a proctologiest doing neurosurgery on you. Both Doctors, but .......

 

[MoGas]

Just a FYI, the main bearing can be installed with the engine in the engine bay. I have spun in the rods and mains on this engine from underneath. Not the easiest, but doable. So a inframe is possiable to do, the hardest is to hone the cylinders with the block still in frame. It it doable again, and you can protect the bearings failry well, you would just have to wash the bottom end after honeing the cylinder walls. then spin in the bearings. A shop would not warranty this type of job, too much liablilty. But a good do it your self guy would not have too much trouble, and have a good product that could go many miles.
later robbie

I was a Mechanic at the local John Deere dealer here in town and we would "roll in" new mains here and there, it's pretty easy once you get in there. Usually it would be done as part of an in frame rebuild. No honing or boring on those though, just replace the wet sleeves with thier factory matched piston and rings and go. Too bad our engines are cast in block cylinders instead of wet sleeves.




Dave

 

[powderpig]

I worked for Cummins for many years, I too like the wet liners that you could pop in. The block could be of softer material, and the liners have the best materials, makes for great longivity. You could build a engine in less then 2 days and have it last for many a years with out the block leaving the frame of what it was in. Maybe some day gas will go to similar methods (at a greater cost, maybe a dream). later robbie