Northwest fabworks BLACK BOX (2 Viewers)

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So is it a coincidence that my son Johnny @JohnnyOshow22 is posting up to @Zoverlander today on MUD when Zoverlander and I also traded info on Instagram today on this very topic, instigated by me out of the blue :rofl:?

When Johnny's shop learned directly from NWFW personnel that the Black Box needs an external reservoir, pump and cooler, and a third hole drilled in the case to facilitate the oil circuit while leaving the breather open to atmosphere, if running for extended periods on the road, literally ONE WEEK :bang::bang::bang::bang::bang::bang: after Georg @orangefj45 got the thing rebuilt for me, with new plastic guides that had disintegrated due to lack of oil/heat, I was flabbergasted/gobsmocked/f'n mad. Note that Georg HAD talked to them about my build and they were not saying this at the time, which was springtime 2018. Following Tor Slining's lead we had even put a deflector on the breather port thinking that would help the oil belching, but it did not. I was/am totally invested in this drive train solution because with the BB installed, the new structural belly pan/skid plate/cross member is designed specifically for this drive train, with the BB falling in behind the H55F as Johnny has said. For those not familiar with my FJ60, Georg has done a 1HZ/turbo/H55F swap on it. I had the 4:1 low range Tcase gears. I LOVED the gear reduction but didn't care for the high range 10% underdrive or the noise of the gears. When I grenaded the gears at Turf N Surf I looked for a new direction and decided on the Black Box. Actually Johnny was the one that told me about it, so really this whole story/journey is his fault. With stock gears in the split case and a Black Box the final drive ratio is 50% lower than just having 4:1 gears in the split case.

I really needed a solution to the oil belching and having just replaced the power steering pump and a bunch of stuff in my wife's 80, it got me to thinking. The power steering pump only has two ports - not three. I tossed out the idea to Georg to not disassemble everything and drill a third hole in the BB, but rather to just use the breather/drain in the BB for the oil loop. My thought was that I would pull oil out of the BB via the drain, going through a cooler first, then to the pump and up to the top of the reservoir, and then gravity feed it from the bottom of the reservoir back in through the breather, thus creating internal negative pressure rather than forcing it in through the breather which would internally pressurize the BB and possibly push fluid into the split case. The reservoir itself would have a breather to atmosphere.

Georg agreed this wasn't crazy, and we set to work. I sourced the pump and reservoir and sent them to Georg. Georg wanted a method of alerting me if the oil in the system was running low, and his right hand man Dominic found an aircraft oil float sensor that they integrated that into my reservoir. If the reservoir fluid gets too low, this will activate a warning light on my dash. They supplied a cooler, and installed the system, with Dominic creating all the custom bracketry necessary for the pump, cooler and reservoir. In total, the system holds 3 qts.

I drove it home the one hour from the shop and for the first time ever oil wasn't dripping on my driveway from being belched out the breather. I was ecstatic. The next morning it was rather cool, and when I turned the key the oil pump made a rather loud squealing noise as it tried to move the thick gear oil through lines and ports that were never sized for this rate of fluid flow. The relay feeding power to the pump is tied into a keyed-on ignition circuit, so I decided to install a thermo switch on the relay ground. I found a normally open 105F switch on Amazon (half the width of my pinky nail and ~ 1mm thick), placed it against the oil hose adjacent to the BB drain port, taped in on, then wrapped it in split heater hose, and zip-tied the assembly. Now, on a cold morning, the switch is open, the relay ground isn't complete, and the relay doesn't send power to the pump. But once on the road for a while the heat in the BB migrates to the hose by the drain, the circuit closes, and the relay the powers the pump, circulating oil as designed.

I've just put close to 3000 miles on this assembly on a 12 day western U.S. road trip, which also included some hard core trails, and it worked perfectly. Johnny's already posted a few pics of the system above, but this weekend I'll put some more pics up, as well as a detailed list of the parts used to make this work. It's also worth noting that we had to lengthen the transmission tunnel hump to make everything clear, whereas in a 62 the stock auto trans already took care of this, making the switch to an H55F and Black Box a little simpler.

It's a fantastic combination that provides great low range crawling (123:1) and allows you to keep your diff gears high for lower highway rpms. I get to use 4.10 diff gears with my 37's and still crawl, while running 70 on the highway at 2600 rpms in 5th gear (2600 rpms in 1st-low-low gets you 2 mph 😎). And my front and rear drive shafts are within 1/2" of each other in length now, meaning I only need one trail spare. Videos of trucks running down the highway are boring, so here's a video (thank you Valley Hybrid's Adam Schwyhart!) of the Black Box-enabled Goat in action on an optional line up Rubicon's Cadillac Hill, with Georg's toes in the background :).



Definitely not a coincidence!! But the following IS all SUUPER coincidental!

- that @JohnnyOshow22 is your son, and is somewhat responsible for your blackbox odyssey!
- that both of our journeys essentially started with grenade'd 4:1 low-range gears, at Turf-N-Surf nonetheless!
- that @orangefj45 is also closely involved in both our BB ventures - as it was his comment on one of @dirtyboots 's posts, also back around spring 2018 that got me started!

Enough thanks for sharing all this brilliant and helpful information cannot be conveyed! Those pictures and the thorough description of the issues and solutions yall figured out are invaluable! Based on a conversation I had with a gentleman named Kyle up there, apparently the newest BB design featured improved internals that holds approx. double the oil capacity, additional ports on the housing (for plumbing a cooler), and a repositioned breather port which makes it less burp-able) - and they are willing to help existing customers exchange older units for newer ones.
 
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That was definitely an interesting mod and i'm super stoked that it worked out so well, much to the credit of @MountNGoat and all his research.
Just one pf the reasons I love working with Steve!

Georg
 
So as promised some part specifics. @JohnnyOshow22 posted pics of my truck a few posts back in this thread (#57 Northwest fabworks BLACK BOX). The aluminum 2 qt reservoir that is placed near the brake booster is from Canton Racing, model 80-202. It's for engine coolant and so has a pressurized cap. That's okay for being a cap, but not for letting the tank vent to atmosphere. So Valley Hybrids modified the tank with an extra top fitting that you can see in the picture. This just goes to the fuel filter breather termination you can see at the top left of the tank, ensuring the tank doesn't get pressurized. There were a lot of pump choices out there. I wanted something quiet and durable. Ultimately I chose the Turbowerx Exa-Pump Mini. I left the choice of oil cooler up to Valley Hybrids as the pump and cooler needed to fit on my belly pan adjacent to the transfer cases. The thermo switch is an Uxcell KSD9700, 40 deg C normally open bimetal switch. It was their lowest temp switch so I thought I'd try it and go from there. I've put another 300 miles on the assembly, including more offroading, and things are still purring along as intended. The installation of the oil float sensor (I don't have the part # at the moment) required another hole/fitting in the bottom of the tank to be added, along with the warning light in my cab.

One other thing to consider doing if you have everything apart is to grind a notch into the end of the BB output shaft going into the split case. Besides the oil belching and the problems that created, the nut securing the BB output shaft into the split case had come loose, which permitted axial play that almost left me stuck in neutral in the BB at Observation Point. So, when things were out Georg ground a notch into the end of the shaft so that a stake nut could be used, ensuring this wouldn't happen again.
 
Kyle from NWF just called and we had a great conversation. He and his crew are working on some updates to the BB design that should allow for quite a bit more fluid capacity ……. they're going to try to test the updated design early this week and then get back to us.

More updates to come!

Georg @ Valley Hybrids & Cruiser Brothers
 
Kyle from NWF just called and we had a great conversation. He and his crew are working on some updates to the BB design that should allow for quite a bit more fluid capacity ……. they're going to try to test the updated design early this week and then get back to us.

More updates to come!

Georg @ Valley Hybrids & Cruiser Brothers

Right on! Today I received a message from NWF as well, and just called back and had a great conversation with Kyle. He shared more intel on the specific design improvements they've made, and confirmed that within the next week or two they expect to complete a batch of testing to measure thermoregulation and oil flow/burping issues (with & without external pump/cooler/reservoir etc.) for both the 'old' and 'new' case designs - and most importantly, reiterated their commitment to taking care of existing customers.

Now I am leaning more towards replacing the entire unit with the new/improved design when that becomes available vs. modifying my existing BB. Have not made a firm decision yet, but I did get a very positive feeling from @NorthWestFab and have confidence they can adapt this excellent product to use in rigs that see lots of highway miles.

@MountNGoat and @orangefj45 - one of the questions/concerns I raised (which was shared by Kyle at NWF) regarding your solution to pump fluid out of the drain, through a cooler and into a reservoir which then gravity/negative-pressure feeds back to the BB via its breather - is that despite the reservoir being vented to atmosphere, there still seems like a need for the BB itself to vent in order to avoid risking damage to its seals due to pressurization - because unlike a power-steering system that essentially is a hydraulic, fluid-powered system that requires constant high pressure, the BB will still generate heat and experience pressure fluctuations - which are dangerous if the unit remains sealed.

The fact that Steve has had such a good experience after 3000+ miles is definitely a very positive signal that my question/concern is moot - but I am still curious for your thoughts...?
 
We purposely "pull" fluid out of the BB at the drain port vs "pushing" fluid into it …... hence our configuration.

So far, so good.

And yes, that's a very valid question and concern.

Steve is on a plane today but i'm sure he'll chime in when he has a moment.

Georg
 
MountNGoat, the new process transfer cases use ATF, not gear oil. Since the black box planetary system is derived from those transfer cases, I see no reason why ATF wouldn't work. Since ATF flows much better than gear oil when cold, I would think the pump would be happier and longer lived. Just a thought...
 
Marks4wd 6L80 to HF2A, 8”, $1700
Blackbox for the same, $1750 (length?)

In the context of LS swap, Blackbox seemed like a no brainer, provided that it can run reliably on the highway.

It’s not the small pieces that’s a non starter, but it must work with highway driving. If extras are needed, that should be very clear up front, part of the build options on website, etc.
blackbox adds about 8 + 1/8 " to the total length of driveline, and thus requires front drive shaft to be lengthened and rear driveshaft to be shortened by approx. that same amount. Fortunately, this nets a front and rear driveshaft that are nearly identical in length - which means a single spare can be used for either in a pinch.

Agree completely that everything related to this install should be very clear, upfront and on their website - and that currently, the information that is there makes this install seem more straightforward than it is in actuality. To name a few, transmission output shaft needs to be shortened; floor needs to be modified, cross-member/transmission mount needs to be modified. There are also vehicle-specific issues, like the relocation of fuel tank for 80-series rigs (not a concern with 60-series rigs) and the fact that FJ60's require more floor modification than FJ62's do since their transmission tunnel is shorter.
 
MountNGoat, the new process transfer cases use ATF, not gear oil. Since the black box planetary system is derived from those transfer cases, I see no reason why ATF wouldn't work. Since ATF flows much better than gear oil when cold, I would think the pump would be happier and longer lived. Just a thought...

Northwest fabworks says gear oil needs to be used and @MountNGoat has wired in a temperature switch so that the pump only turns on when the gear oil reaches a warm enough temperature so that he doesn't strain the pump.
 
MountNGoat, the new process transfer cases use ATF, not gear oil. Since the black box planetary system is derived from those transfer cases, I see no reason why ATF wouldn't work. Since ATF flows much better than gear oil when cold, I would think the pump would be happier and longer lived. Just a thought...
@JeepinPete we did run ATF in it for a very short time to see if that would prevent the burping, but it did not. I emailed NWFW specifically to get their fluid recommendation, and their reply was 75/90 full synthetic. So that's why I'm using it but I agree with your comment. I think flow rate would go up substantially due to the lower viscosity, which may not be a good thing if it caused aeration.
 
Right on! Today I received a message from NWF as well, and just called back and had a great conversation with Kyle. He shared more intel on the specific design improvements they've made, and confirmed that within the next week or two they expect to complete a batch of testing to measure thermoregulation and oil flow/burping issues (with & without external pump/cooler/reservoir etc.) for both the 'old' and 'new' case designs - and most importantly, reiterated their commitment to taking care of existing customers.

Now I am leaning more towards replacing the entire unit with the new/improved design when that becomes available vs. modifying my existing BB. Have not made a firm decision yet, but I did get a very positive feeling from @NorthWestFab and have confidence they can adapt this excellent product to use in rigs that see lots of highway miles.

@MountNGoat and @orangefj45 - one of the questions/concerns I raised (which was shared by Kyle at NWF) regarding your solution to pump fluid out of the drain, through a cooler and into a reservoir which then gravity/negative-pressure feeds back to the BB via its breather - is that despite the reservoir being vented to atmosphere, there still seems like a need for the BB itself to vent in order to avoid risking damage to its seals due to pressurization - because unlike a power-steering system that essentially is a hydraulic, fluid-powered system that requires constant high pressure, the BB will still generate heat and experience pressure fluctuations - which are dangerous if the unit remains sealed.

The fact that Steve has had such a good experience after 3000+ miles is definitely a very positive signal that my question/concern is moot - but I am still curious for your thoughts...?

Following up on Georg's reply, pulling the fluid out of the drain was an intentional part of my design to lower internal pressures. I can't speak to the dynamic pressures developing internally during operation, but from a fluids standpoint the maximum static internal pressure in the BB with my setup is just the oil density times the height to the top of the reservoir, and this pressure head is what an expanding internal fluid would have to overcome while heating up. Viscosity of Gear Oil – viscosity table and viscosity chart :: Anton Paar Wiki lists the density at ~0.83 g/cm^3 when warmed up (I just used about 55C), and the vertical height is about 36" (approximate - not home to check). It works out to just under 1.1 psi. That doesn't bother me, but of course I'd welcome a more informed opinion from NWFW or elsewhere. The expanding fluid is easily taken up in the reservoir against this minor pressure. Ultimately my number one priority is long term reliability. I've driven CA-->CO and back with an essentially dry BB and made it (but cooked the plastic shift fork guides), and now I've done it again with a completely full BB as described and it's working. And a new box from NWFW doesn't help without a check for Georg's time. This thing has now been in and out of my truck twice, for issues that are really all on NWFW, first because NWFW didn't fabricate the adapter plate to my H55F correctly and 5th gear wouldn't stay in 5th. And a second time now for this latest round of repairs to it to fix the damage from running dry, and then there are the costs of material and labor to make my oil reservoir work. Georg is extremely fair on his shop rates but it still isn't cheap, and I don't have the proper facilities at home to do it myself.
 
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Following up on Georg's reply, pulling the fluid out of the drain was an intentional part of my design to lower internal pressures. I can't speak to the dynamic pressures developing internally during operation, but from a fluids standpoint the maximum static internal pressure in the BB with my setup is just the oil density times the height to the top of the reservoir, and this pressure head is what an expanding internal fluid would have to overcome while heating up. Viscosity of Gear Oil – viscosity table and viscosity chart :: Anton Paar Wiki lists the density at ~0.83 g/cm^3 when warmed up (I just used about 55C), and the vertical height is about 36" (approximate - not home to check). It works out to just under 1.1 psi. That doesn't bother me, but of course I'd welcome a more informed opinion from NWFW or elsewhere. The expanding fluid is easily taken up in the reservoir against this minor pressure. Ultimately my number one priority is long term reliability. I've driven CA-->CO and back with an essentially dry BB and made it (but cooked the plastic shift fork guides), and now I've done it again with a completely full BB as described and it's working. And a new box from NWFW doesn't help without a check for Georg's time. This thing has now been in and out of my truck now twice, for issues that are really all on NWFW, first because NWFW didn't fabricate the adapter plate to my H55F correctly and 5th gear wouldn't stay in 5th. And a second time now for this latest round of repairs to it to fix the damage from running dry, and then there are the costs of material and labor to make my oil reservoir work. Georg is extremely fair on his shop rates but it still isn't cheap, and I don't have the proper facilities at home to do it myself.

I had the same issues with the adapter plate making 5th gear pop-out; fortunately though Yotamasters down in Corona (who did my install - also because I lack the facilities at home for something this intense) identified the problem after connecting the BB to the H55f and split T-case, before installing the 3 gearboxes back in the truck (the H55f and split T-case had both been separately damaged, so required re-assembly at the same time BB was being installed anyway) and made appropriate modifications to the adapter plate. I can also vouch for the unexpected expenses associated with this install - as well as the extremely fair rates charged by, and graciousness exuded by, @orangefj45 (he helped me out bigtime, after I grenaded a brand-new T-case housing and gears that were utilized when I first installed the BB - THANK YOU, AGAIN, Georg :) ).

@MountNGoat - your innovation of this setup, making a 2-port BB (what I'll start calling their 'old' version) actually work (and not require fluid changes every 1,000 miles, or generate flak from the wife because of its constant burping of oil everywhere) and positive experiences with it after a very healthy amount of miles - is EXTREMELY reassuring, and helpful. So, thank you - AGAIN - for sharing such valuable intel along the way :)
 
No there was an old crawl box offered by Marks. It was a 3:1 doubler so you could have 1:1, 2.4:1, and 7.2:1

Just curious - whats the old crawler box? A toybox from Marlin?
 
I currently have a BB between a 6L90 and a split case in my FJ45 and ive had to remove it twice now for leaks/burping. I attempted for months to get the updated case design and after the last email and phone exchange with them I give up...I'll be going back to my old heavy NP203. I'm tired of having to remove both transfer cases to participate in internet open source product development as the mud brain trust figures out all these creative cooling solutions.

If anyone is interested in buying a BB, PM me and I will be more motivated to pull it, right now it's limited my truck to town trips due to the fluid being pushed out. The input is currently 29-spline for a 6L90 but I can easily change it to a 32-spline for 6l80/4l80 and you can find other input shafts on ebay.
 
did anyone get info on the“newer” cases design/capacity and if the added case capacity helps with burping and pressure issues in the case itself?
We’ve installed two of them so far and the results are good.
One wasdriven from my shop in northern CA to SoCal at freeway speeds for roughly 5 hours with no burping or overheating issues.
We’re still tinkering with our second generation remote cooler and oil pump system. The first setup got the results we were hoping for but due to the excess fluid in the BB, our fuel economy suffered. The second design will aim to keep the fluid level close to “stock”.
Georg @ Valley Hybrids
 
One thing to note about my "1st Gen" setup is that gear oil migrates from the Black Box into the split case. Over the course of ~six months about 1.5 quarts will move. I figured this out the first time when my reservoir low level light came on, yet I wasn't leaving oil everywhere. So yesterday was the second time draining the split case and refilling the Black Box reservoir. Even if we get rid of the elevated reservoir, given the higher level of the BB fluid in its case relative to the split case, I believe this fluid migration will continue. A clear sight tube on the outside is probably a necessity to visually inspect the BB fluid level periodically. A good seal on the shaft into the split case is really needed. Also note the need for a good inline filter feeding the pump, according to my pump manufacturer, to ensure pump longevity. That will also be added in the next round of fixes. Lastly, to reduce flow rate on my pump I'll be stepping down the voltage from 12V to 6V, cutting it in half, which should then be on the order of 0.5 gal min. It's really moving at the moment.
 
One thing to note about my "1st Gen" setup is that gear oil migrates from the Black Box into the split case. Over the course of ~six months about 1.5 quarts will move. I figured this out the first time when my reservoir low level light came on, yet I wasn't leaving oil everywhere. So yesterday was the second time draining the split case and refilling the Black Box reservoir. Even if we get rid of the elevated reservoir, given the higher level of the BB fluid in its case relative to the split case, I believe this fluid migration will continue. A clear sight tube on the outside is probably a necessity to visually inspect the BB fluid level periodically. A good seal on the shaft into the split case is really needed. Also note the need for a good inline filter feeding the pump, according to my pump manufacturer, to ensure pump longevity. That will also be added in the next round of fixes. Lastly, to reduce flow rate on my pump I'll be stepping down the voltage from 12V to 6V, cutting it in half, which should then be on the order of 0.5 gal min. It's really moving at the moment.
Will the lower voltage cause any issues with the electric motor ( brushes ) in the pump?
I bet part of the fluid transfer issue ( if not all ) stems from the fact that we’re actually creating pessure in the BB by having it full of fluid vs just half full, thereby forcing the oil past the double lipped Tcase input seal. Once we install the updated BB case half and lower the fluid level to “stock”, this should not be an issue anymore.
Georg @ Valley Hybrids
 

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