No Start, Single Click, All Power goes out (with references)- Solved (1 Viewer)

[WhitePhoenix]

Hey All,

I know a lot of no start threads around here. I've done a ton of reading from these threads

1993 FZJ80 startup problem

I bought this 80 a few months ago and it's been flawless until now. One day when I went to start it it acted like a dead battery, one click and nothing. After messing around with battery diagnostics, I pulled the negative cable off. Battery tested fully charged. I put the negative cable back on...

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Starter or Neutral Safety switch

Sarah's 1996 LX450. Symptum : Turn key and no starter noises no clicking. Problem is intermitant First thought was bad cables and connectors ( a little loose) worked for a bit Then thought bad cell in battery and replaced with new Red Top. Worked for a bit. Starter contacts...

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and even the rising Sun club forum FZJ80 starting woes - https://risingsun4x4club.org/xf/threads/fzj80-starting-woes.31141/

Here is the backstory on the starting system (97 LC):
-Starter contacts replaced and plunger replaced Feb 2020, no issue with starter just done as a PM. I couldn't tell if the starter was OEM or not, sticker was gone.
-New fusible link May '21 (PM)
-New battery terminals Aug '23, terminals were making a weak connection and sorta chewed up. Caused an initial no start condition but vehicle started with a jump box.
-New junction fuse block two weeks ago (PM, old one had the closing clip broken since it was so brittle during the fusible link replacement). This caused a weird a power surge and fried my fusible link. Replaced fusible link, started up immediately.

Now here is where we are. Upon turning the key to start, single click and all power goes out. This happened after I dropped off a curb. No alarm installed (factory or aftermarket, checked under the driver seat and all up under the dash). Vehicle started just fine before this. So began all my testing with a voltmeter. Battery was weak, had it tested at the parts store and it was discharging. Ok new battery. Still same issue.
Tested all the ground and leads going to the starter. Everything checks good at 12.6-12.7 volts, small ground wire from battery, pos lug terminal on starter, engine block ground, both fusible link connections at the junction block.

Put the ignition to on, put the shifter through all the gears multiple times back to park to maybe see if the NSS was acting weird. No luck in starting park or neutral.

So I've it got it beginning to narrow down. Next was the starter. Banged on it with a hammer, no luck.
Just took a jumper wire from the small wire on the starter (the bottom contact underneath the stater) with the key in on to the pos terminal. Got a spark on the wire and all power went on just like the initial symptoms.

Is this confirming my starter is indeed bad? I assume the issue would be not the contacts or the plunger.

 

[jonheld]

If the starter cranks when jumping between the 2 terminals, then the starter logic side is faulty.
From the 1996 EWD:

 

[WhitePhoenix]

If the starter cranks when jumping between the 2 terminals, then the starter logic side is faulty.
From the 1996 EWD:

View attachment 3490987

Got it, been looking at this for the past few days to ensure I had all my ground and everything else checked. I guess I didn't say it clear enough, all I got was the spark on the jumper wire, no click on the starter. But if it was the starter logic, pointing to the ecu before the wiring splits off and heads to the nss I presume to check that connection?

 

[jonheld]

Got it, been looking at this for the past few days to ensure I had all my ground and everything else checked. I guess I didn't say it clear enough, all I got was the spark on the jumper wire, no click on the starter. But if it was the starter logic, pointing to the ecu before the wiring splits off and heads to the nss I presume to check that connection?

If you jumped the 2 starter terminals and it didn't crank, then the starter is faulty (most likely starter contacts).
The wire with the 12mm copper nut is a direct feed from the battery positive terminal.
The small push on connector is the starter logic from the ignition switch.
The ECU has nothing to do with the starter cranking or not cranking.

Of course this is assuming that the battery is good and the connections are solid and making good contact.
When you say, "single click", is it more like a solid thump each time you turn the key to crank? This would indicate that the starter logic is good and the starter contacts are faulty OR there is a poor connection from the battery to the starter solenoid.

 

[WhitePhoenix]

Ok just want to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding here. When jumping the starter, I use the starter contact on the bottom to the + battery side right?
I ended up changing out the connections cause the stock wiring had some residue on it (from the distributor leaking oil over time) and also just replaced the starter. Still having the same issue of single solid thump, power goes out.

 

[CJF]

What does it do if you try to jump-start it?

 

[WhitePhoenix]

What does it do if you try to jump-start it?

No luck, still the same scenario. I've had it happen where jump starting worked on a previous problem (bad connection at the battery terminals).

 

[Mark W]

Need another data point before we go too far with our guesses.

You say that "all the power" goes out when you hit he key to start. As in everything I assue? Dash lights, Dome light, buzzers, everything right?

What are you doing to get the power back to try again?

Mark

 

[Sixspeed]

My go to faq on no start

 

[WhitePhoenix]

Need another data point before we go too far with our guesses.

You say that "all the power" goes out when you hit he key to start. As in everything I assue? Dash lights, Dome light, buzzers, everything right?

What are you doing to get the power back to try again?

Mark

Yup, everything goes out, dash, dome, door lights, key clang when the door is open, etc.

Power comes back by disconnecting the Neg and reattaching it. This makes me thing it is the ground, but all those connections are solid, new wiring, good continuity. This is why my head is just scratching over here.

But I want to confirm on which contact I can jump to the pos side of the battery; because I slightly think my only other options are the nss or ignition.

 

[jonheld]

But I want to confirm on which contact I can jump to the pos side of the battery; because I slightly think my only other options are the nss or ignition.

There are only 2 connections to the starter. You can jump those together and the starter will crank, assuming the connection from the positive battery terminal to the starter is not faulty.
Or, if you want to run a wire from the positive battery terminal to the logic side of the starter (clip on terminal) that would be the same idea.

 

[WhitePhoenix]

There are only 2 connections to the starter. You can jump those together and the starter will crank, assuming the connection from the positive battery terminal to the starter is not faulty.
Or, if you want to run a wire from the positive battery terminal to the logic side of the starter (clip on terminal) that would be the same idea.

Ahhh that makes sense now, for some reason I was reading that if I did pos side to the thin wire (bottom side contact), not where the wire connector that plugs into the starter. More to follow with the troubleshooting with someone to see if I'm getting voltage to the starter logic side.

 

[jonheld]

Ahhh that makes sense now, for some reason I was reading that if I did pos side to the thin wire (bottom side contact), not where the wire connector that plugs into the starter. More to follow with the troubleshooting with someone to see if I'm getting voltage to the starter logic side.

Those are certainly words, but they don't make sense to me.
The starter has a direct connection to the positive battery terminal. That is the one under the rubber insulating hood with a copper nut.
The smaller push on connector is the logic side of the starter from the starter circuit.
If you remove the push on connector, and momentarily short the 2 starter terminals together, you are applying +12 to the starter solenoid as if you have turned the key to the start position. This will cause the starter to crank.

 

[ToyotaDon]

Yup, everything goes out, dash, dome, door lights, key clang when the door is open, etc.

Power comes back by disconnecting the Neg and reattaching it. This makes me thing it is the ground, but all those connections are solid, new wiring, good continuity. This is why my head is just scratching over here.

But I want to confirm on which contact I can jump to the pos side of the battery; because I slightly think my only other options are the nss or ignition.

These symptoms point to a bad connection somewhere. Just because you have good continuity with an ohmmeter or continuity checker does not mean the circuit can handle the high current of the starter.

To determine if the problem is on the ground side or the power side, I would suggest using half of a jumper cable set to bypass each connection. First, try connecting one of these cables between the engine block and battery ground terminal. If that helps, then you need to check EVERY ground cable between engine, body, and frame for looseness, melting, etc. If the symptoms continue with the ground bypassed as described, then you will need to try bypassing the positive cable to the starter. The worst part about this is that the battery cable lug on the starter might be kind of hard to get the large alligator clip onto, but once that is done you can connect the other end to the positive battery terminal and try again.

The only other things I can think of as a cause would be really bad, like the starter shorted internally or the engine seized. Going off a bump might have done that to the starter, but not likely to the engine.

 

[ToyotaDon]

Those are certainly words, but they don't make sense to me.
The starter has a direct connection to the positive battery terminal. That is the one under the rubber insulating hood with a copper nut.
The smaller push on connector is the logic side of the starter from the starter circuit.
If you remove the push on connector, and momentarily short the 2 starter terminals together, you are applying +12 to the starter solenoid as if you have turned the key to the start position. This will cause the starter to crank.

I'm pretty sure the OP was thinking he needed to jump directly across the solenoid, from the battery terminal to the motor terminal. There are technically 3 connections at the solenoid, including the M terminal.

 

[Mark W]

Yup, everything goes out, dash, dome, door lights, key clang when the door is open, etc.

Power comes back by disconnecting the Neg and reattaching it. This makes me thing it is the ground, but all those connections are solid, new wiring, good continuity. This is why my head is just scratching over here.

But I want to confirm on which contact I can jump to the pos side of the battery; because I slightly think my only other options are the nss or ignition.

I would look harder and closer at the negative battery connection. A LOT closer and harder. Closer than that. Do it again. Damn it, not like that. LOOK CLOSE!

Dollars to doughnuts that is where your problem is.

Just because it will pass 12 volts at zero load, does not mean that it will pass the amperage that the starter needs. I have never seen this particular symptom, point to anything else.

Just 'cause I have not seen it, doesn't mean that there can not be something else. But in 30 years of playing with these rigs and working exclusively on them... I have not seen this syptom point to anything else besides a poor connection at the negative battery terminal.


Mark...

 

[WhitePhoenix]

I would look harder and closer at the negative battery connection. A LOT closer and harder. Closer than that. Do it again. Damn it, not like that. LOOK CLOSE!

Dollars to doughnuts that is where your problem is.

Just because it will pass 12 volts at zero load, does not mean that it will pass the amperage that the starter needs. I have never seen this particular symptom, point to anything else.

Just 'cause I have not seen it, doesn't mean that there can not be something else. But in 30 years of playing with these rigs and working exclusively on them... I have not seen this syptom point to anything else besides a poor connection at the negative battery terminal.


Mark...

Welp I had some military style terminals from my other hobby that I was contemplating switching out. Sure as can be, switched out and fired right up.

I'd like to thank @jonheld for some education and further explanation on the system (and for putting up with my terrible description of what I was trying to do with the starter), @Mark W for having me look back at my battery connection since I was sure that the semi newish terminals were good, and @ToyotaDon for making me start back from the beginning of troubleshooting.
Thread title changed for anyone's future needs.

 

[Mark W]

Welp I had some military style terminals from my other hobby that I was contemplating switching out. Sure as can be, switched out and fired right up.

I'd like to thank @jonheld for some education and further explanation on the system (and for putting up with my terrible description of what I was trying to do with the starter), @Mark W for having me look back at my battery connection since I was sure that the semi newish terminals were good, and @ToyotaDon for making me start back from the beginning of troubleshooting.
Thread title changed for anyone's future needs.

Glad that you got it and that it turned out to be easy.

Sometimes us know it all old farts can seem to be worth listening to. Because after you muddled through something enough times yourself, it kinda starts to seem like you have some idea what is going on.

Seriously with all the Cruisers I see coming through the door with terrible terrible "WTF is that" battery connections, I didn't even have to wonder once you clarified the symptom.


Mark...