My experience with 12 hole injectors. Awesome! (1 Viewer)

[suprarx7nut]

Obviously not. A "wideband controller" is the common name given to the complete package of a gauge, sensor, and...the controller that controls the sensor in an aftermarket install. You could have googled it yourself in 2 seconds and you probably know what I'm talking about anyway, you're just arguing in bad faith and being purposefully ignorant to stall actual discussion (where it will be exposed you are wrong).

In other words, this is what I installed in my truck:
Wideband UEGO Air/Fuel Controllers | AEM We Pioneered the Wideband AFR Gauge

That naming convention has always annoyed me with AEM. AEM makes AFR gauges and uses the term "controller" in the description when it's just a gauge and the only thing being "controlled" is the heating element in the sensor and/or the needle in the gauge. They also make boost gauges and a popular boost "controller". The boost controller is a controller in the traditional sense where it acts as a controlling device for boost pressures. I'm convinced they purposefully confuse people with the "controller" term in their AFR gauge lineup to stand out and make people think it might be some sort of gauge mounted piggyback or something. You never see them advertise "Oil Pressure Controllers" when they refer to their oil pressure gauges which have some sort of "controller" mechanism controlling the needle.

AEM is the only company I've seen use that terminology. Innovate calls theirs simply AFR gauges. I wish AEM would as well.

I agree wholeheartedly! If you are so kind, please PM me. I will submit my paypal address where you can donate. I will dyno my truck if the funds are raised to help me and I will swap injectors on the dyno. Dyno time is about $250 an hour.

If I were to spend the money I'd just do it myself, which I might. My Youtube channel will hit monetized status soon and at that point I may make a point to create content again. I want to re-dyno the Supra to see how much power was gained with an exhaust upgrade and could probably test a few other things in an afternoon. It'd be nice if someone else was motivated as well to compare some figures.

 

[J1000]

That naming convention has always annoyed me with AEM. AEM makes AFR gauges and uses the term "controller" in the description when it's just a gauge and the only thing being "controlled" is the heating element in the sensor and/or the needle in the gauge. They also make boost gauges and a popular boost "controller". The boost controller is a controller in the traditional sense where it acts as a controlling device for boost pressures. I'm convinced they purposefully confuse people with the "controller" term in their AFR gauge lineup to stand out and make people think it might be some sort of gauge mounted piggyback or something. You never see them advertise "Oil Pressure Controllers" when they refer to their oil pressure gauges which have some sort of "controller" mechanism controlling the needle.

AEM is the only company I've seen use that terminology. Innovate calls theirs simply AFR gauges. I wish AEM would as well.

Wrong on all points. I guess the whole point of a "wideband" sensor has been lost on you. A narrow band sensor just outputs an analog voltage, it does not require a controller. It is similar to a mechanical boost controller (a ball and spring) in your analogy.

A wideband requires a controller to work properly, and it does way more than just heat up the element. Hopefully this article will help you understand more: Why Do Wideband Oxygen Sensors Need a Controller? - VEI Systems

Also Innovate does indeed advertise and sell their kits as "wideband controllers." I just bought one last week.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Wrong on all points. I guess the whole point of a "wideband" sensor has been lost on you. A narrow band sensor just outputs an analog voltage, it does not require a controller. It is similar to a mechanical boost controller (a ball and spring) in your analogy.

A wideband requires a controller to work properly, and it does way more than just heat up the element. Hopefully this article will help you understand more: Why Do Wideband Oxygen Sensors Need a Controller? - VEI Systems

Also Innovate does indeed advertise and sell their kits as "wideband controllers." I just bought one last week.

I think we're getting lost in semantics here and drifting off-course. Never-the-less, here's Innovate's product listing page. Nowehere do they call the wideband gauge/sensor products "controllers". Even in the individual product listings they don't call it a "controller". They point out some of the controls it has internally, but the product itself is never a "controller" because it's only controlling itself. The one exception is their stand-alone data acquisition piece for folks that are skipping the gauge. Digital Monitoring Products, Tuning Tools, & Controllers. Innovate Motorsports

It's just a gauge. That's all, just a sensor and gauge. For the gauge to work with the sensor, it needs some internal "control". That's fine. I believe that. Innovate and other manufacturers don't make a big deal about the "controller" part of the equation. AEM does. It's annoying and confuses people exactly like what just happened in this thread that has derailed the conversation. That's my point, haha. If AEM marketed that product and if you had referred to it simply as a gauge, there would not have been any confusion.

*Edit, another way to look at this is to break it into two categories.
Measurement Device and Control Device.

The wideband gauge/sensor/controller is always a measurement device. It is not a control device. It may feed into a control device (standalone or piggyback) as an input measurement, but the wideband system itself is simply a measurement device. I guess there may be some internal control mechanisms necessary to make measurements, but it's just a measurement device.

The boost controller that AEM markets with similar verbiage is, on the other hand, a control device with a measurement device. It's controlling air flow in the engine.

 

[J1000]

I think we're getting lost in semantics here and drifting off-course.

I agree.

 

[jerryb]

glad you bought a innovate. I never liked AEM.
You still lost me on why you want to monitor lambda with an ecu that will ultimately control output anyway. Far as I know when you hit a 22% add or take away outside of ecu max adjust you'll just be stuck with a CEL.
and what does that new info provide you with to make any changes to benefit the system? ANd with what equipment are you going to make changes with?
where did you weld in another bung?

the insignificant differences of .5 or less on a NA engine of lambda of a cheap gauge are lost on me.

 

[J1000]

glad you bought a innovate. I never liked AEM.
You still lost me on why you want to monitor lambda with an ecu that will ultimately control output anyway. Far as I know when you hit a 22% add or take away outside of ecu max adjust you'll just be stuck with a CEL.
and what does that new info provide you with to make any changes to benefit the system? ANd with what equipment are you going to make changes with?
where did you weld in another bung?

the insignificant differences of .5 or less on a NA engine of lambda of a cheap gauge are lost on me.

Sounds like you still have a lot of catching up to do before you can join the conversation on equal footing. I suggest you click the link in the very first post of this thread and read my posts in it. You can see exactly where I welded the bung if you do so!

 

[TheForger]

Who needs reality tv when you have threads like these??

@J1000 I can tell you've put a lot of time, money, and energy into this project and I do appreciate that. The V8 in our trucks is great and bulletproof and all that jazz, but IMHO it's lacking in the power department; especially for someone like me with added weight, the 4spd tranny, and stock gears. Everyone's looking for a way to gain even the smallest amount of horsepower anyway they can. Everything from switching to cold air intakes, turbos, superchargers, and now the fad seems to have transitioned to a greater # of holes in the injectors.

While I don't really understand how that could increase power enough to make a significant and noticeable difference, who am I to say that it can't actually do that? Especially since I don't have any first hand experience. All I'm saying is you created this thread in hopes of reaching an audience where you can provide your first hand experience on a mod not many other people have done or even thought of doing in hopes of gaining something out of it. Just like anything else in life, in order for your audience to listen (and more importantly agree with what you're saying) you need to cater to your audience when you make claims like these. Right now your audience includes those from all disciplines of engineering, former & current master techs, mechanics, knowledgeable car enthusiasts, and everything in between. These kinds of people like proof. Not subjective opinions. Not butt dyno results. Accurate, irrefutable, and consistent data that clearly shows a positive change or even just a correlation of any kind. I have a feeling until that kind of data is provided, everyone is going to keep playing this back and forth game of who thinks they sound smarter.

Just my $0.02

 

[J1000]

Who needs reality tv when you have threads like these??

@J1000All I'm saying is you created this thread in hopes of reaching an audience where you can provide your first hand experience on a mod not many other people have done or even thought of doing in hopes of gaining something out of it.

I continue to be amazed by the amount of hubris and simultaneous complete lack of reading comprehension by so many members of this forum. I did not create this thead

 

[TheForger]

I continue to be amazed by the amount of hubris and simultaneous complete lack of reading comprehension by so many members of this forum. I did not create this thead

Darn you got me there. You may not have created it but you are more active then the OP himself, as well as very active in the other injector thread with sharing your experiences. Regardless, my point is still valid: you're trying to gain something out of this. I'm just not sure if it's horsepower or an inflated ego because from what I've seen the lines are a little blurry. I simply recommended a better way to do it besides calling members & supporting vendors who have been active on this forum for years longer than you ignorant. That'd be like me walking onto the shop floor at a Volkswagen dealer and telling the master techs they have no idea what they're talking about - it makes you look like a fool. Chill out a little, collect data that supports your claims, and present it to everyone here in an objective manner.

 

[wvrx]

As someone who has owned many turbo high horsepower cars...you’re probably seeing the increased butt dyno numbers from leaning out the engine.

Whether this is safe or not remains to be determined, but I would not risk it without being able to datalog from the wideband and ECU.

Who knows how your timing map looks with these new injectors...your anecdote is not enough to convince me to risk headgaskets or worse for the small gains aforementioned.

 

[2001LC]

Be aware:

There are differences between fitment of fuel injectors in the 2UZ engine. They made a change in design for the plastic manifold (2UZ-fe VVT engine). I don't have the dimensions of FI. But I do know the newer FI, do not use the grommet at top of fuel injector, also top O-ring and injectors are different PN #. The only PN # the same is the bottom insulator/grommet.
1998-05 April

May 2005- The VVT injector

 

[J1000]

Darn you got me there. You may not have created it but you are more active then the OP himself, as well as very active in the other injector thread with sharing your experiences. Regardless, my point is still valid: you're trying to gain something out of this. I'm just not sure if it's horsepower or an inflated ego because from what I've seen the lines are a little blurry. I simply recommended a better way to do it besides calling members & supporting vendors who have been active on this forum for years longer than you ignorant. That'd be like me walking onto the shop floor at a Volkswagen dealer and telling the master techs they have no idea what they're talking about - it makes you look like a fool. Chill out a little, collect data that supports your claims, and present it to everyone here in an objective manner.

I'm only calling people ignorant who come into a thread a few pages in, and ask the same questions over and over. This quote is a good example. I have posted videos, done logging, and documented all of my experiences including showing Techstream screen shots. All available to see on this forum and has been for months. The ignorant questions...well they aren't really questions, they are rude statements alluding that me and the OP and others who have done this upgrade are stupid people being fooled by snake oil disguised as questions. And not only that but they have already been answered in detail multiple times!

In my opinion, that makes YOU look like a fool. Have you seen my documentation and data that supports my claims or are you...ignorant? Because this post of yours makes me think you haven't read 10% of what I've posted on the subject. I appreciate that you have a much better attitude than the others, thank you for that.

As someone who has owned many turbo high horsepower cars...you’re probably seeing the increased butt dyno numbers from leaning out the engine.

Whether this is safe or not remains to be determined, but I would not risk it without being able to datalog from the wideband and ECU.

Who knows how your timing map looks with these new injectors...your anecdote is not enough to convince me to risk headgaskets or worse for the small gains aforementioned.

As someone who also has owned high horsepower turbo cars. There are many reasons. I spent over $100 per injector for my high HP turbo car from a specific vendor because I was tuning a high horsepower turbo car. I used my knowledge and experience and translated it to my 100.

Also thanks again for proving my point above. I HAVE datalogged with a wideband and OBD-II ECU monitors!!!!!!! I HAVE SPECIFICALLY MONITORED TIMING. This was discussed on the first page!!!!!!!! I couldn't have asked for a better proof of my point above. Amazing.

 

[wvrx]

What software are you using to datalog? Can you post a pic of your timing maps?

All I see is a video of your leaner AFRs at WOT, relax.

 

[jerryb]

Where's the ignore button again?

 

[J1000]

What software are you using to datalog? Can you post a pic of your timing maps?

All I see is a video of your leaner AFRs at WOT, relax.

Torque Android app with OBD adapter.

ECU is stock.

The following screenshot was posted in the thread linked in the first post (that is 9 pages long and could likely answer all of the questions in this thread) but here it is again, a Techstream screenshot of my injector trims.

Not only are the short term trims on each bank within 0.8% of eachother (have you seen one better?). The long-term trims are actually -15% (actually -14.9% and both identical but who's couting), proving that the ECU thinks the smaller 250cc injectors are over-fueling by 15% compared to the stock 270cc. That proves @roma042987 completely wrong and if only he took a look at this image maybe he could have posted something constructive. If the smaller 250cc injectors need to be trimmed back by 15%, doesn't that support the theory that better fuel atomization is leading to more complete combustion, so less fuel need to be injected for the same HP result?

On this screenshot a keen eye will notice a few other things. They will notice that these trims are not recently set, but come after 5500 miles of driving since the injectors were installed. That observant person will also notice my base Ignition Advance, Knock Feedback Value and Knock Correct Learn Value and those can be compared to other unmodified engines. Lastly, they will also see that the engine is running in closed loop, which means there is no CEL or other issue.

I am more than willing to do any more testing that will not cost me hundreds of dollars such as a dyno session. If you have some creative ideas, please let me know!

In other news, I have been contacted by 2 generous people who are willing to put $$$ up to have this tested on a dyno. If anyone else is willing to contribute, please contact me!

 

[roma042987]

Yeah ok you got it all figured out
I’m not going argue with a brick wall. Your long term fuel trim shows the injectors are incorrect for application because the long term trim is having to compensate. They just haven’t reached the malfunction threshold to trigger the cel. If memory severs me right long term needed to reach around 18% to trigger a lean or rich code.

 

[J1000]

In the effort to be more constructive I edited my previous reply out.

 

[J1000]

Yeah ok you got it all figured out
I’m not going argue with a brick wall. Your long term fuel trim shows the injectors are incorrect for application because the long term trim is having to compensate. They just haven’t reached the malfunction threshold to trigger the cel. If memory severs me right long term needed to reach around 18% to trigger a lean or rich code.

Does it even matter? Like I said I am monitoring the AFR every time I drive the truck. It runs great. The other day I filled up and calculated my my mileage to be 17MPG.

It's not going to trigger rich or lean because, like I've said, the AFR reads a perfect 14.7 in all situations except WOT. In WOT it runs 12:1-12.5:1 depending on air temperature. Runs great.

So again, what's the problem? Yes. It is not running under factory parameters. I modified it, it shouldn't be.

 

[roma042987]

Does it even matter? Like I said I am monitoring the AFR every time I drive the truck. It runs great. The other day I filled up and calculated my my mileage to be 17MPG.

It's not going to trigger rich or lean because, like I've said, the AFR reads a perfect 14.7 in all situations except WOT. In WOT it runs 12:1-12.5:1 depending on air temperature. Runs great.

So again, what's the problem? Yes. It is not running under factory parameters. I modified it, it shouldn't be.

The ecu doesn't look at air fuel ratio as a trigger it looks at fuel trim. Yes it does matter it's "tuned" that way by toyota for a reason perhaps for long term reliability and longevity. But who cares right you know whats better for your engine than the toyota engineers.

 

[wvrx]

Never mind...not worth arguing with you. To each their own, I have no agenda to prove in this thread.

Enjoy your newfound power, report back if it holds together over time