My experience with 12 hole injectors. Awesome! (1 Viewer)

[Qtonic]

I think in the other thread he mentioned he originally went with 350cc or 370cc. Maybe that's what he's referring to by smaller.

Incidentally, according to the site below the 4 hole Denso 3420 / 23250-50040 is 250cc (not 270cc stated above) and 13.5 Ohms and the 12 hole Denso 4410 / 23250-20030 is 255cc and 13.7 Ohm. So pretty much plug and play with no adapter required. I couldn't find data on Denso 23250-50060 used from 2005-2007.

Denso 3420 / 23250-50040
Denso 4410 / 23250-20030

 

[J1000]

Now we're talking! Man, I need one of those gauges.

I was looking at it purely from a equal fuel quantity perspective. Leaning out the mixture and getting closer to stoichiometric is typically a good thing. I will say though, I think the benefits of the differences in atomization are a bit overblown. There's a huge effect of the gas dynamics and flow around the valves and the ports, and none of that is changing. If we were talking DFI, it'd be a totally different story.

Either way, cool stuff.

Better atomization is better atomization. Can't argue your way out of that no matter how you try. Most of the benefit of these injectors comes from partial throttle and idling anyway where the duty cycle is low and the airflow through the manifold is low, so any improvement to the spray pattern makes a larger difference than at wide open throttle.

If these undersized injectors are in fact leaning out the mixture that means they are running at a higher duty cycle and unable to keep up with what the o2 sensors and ecm is trying to get the engine to run at. Not something I’d recommend.

Do you have any proof or stats or anything to back that up? I'm just asking because I installed an aftermarket air-fuel wideband controller in my truck and monitored the ECU via OBD port so that I could ensure my truck is running well within a safe zone. Just curious where your information is coming from. Thanks in advance. In actual reality better atomized fuel burns more completely and produces more efficient power so less fuel needs to be injected for the same result. That's why they were invented.

Alright, now I'm confused. This is the first I'm hearing about (or at least the first time I'm catching onto) the idea that these 12 hole injectors are smaller. Of course that will improve peak power by leaning out the open loop portion of the ECU map. That should be very easily provable on a dyno. It's done all the time in the tuner world, albeit normally using the same OEM injectors (or larger) and manipulating the ECU signal for airflow and/or injector impulses to "pull fuel" throughout strategically chosen portions of the fuel map. No matter how you "pull fuel", it will also introduce riskier situations that Toyota intentionally avoided by using the injector size and fuel map they did. I think it also has negative emissions implications for NOx as well, but I'm less versed in that.

See above. If you consider yourself a "tuner" then you would know the reasons why people choose one style product over another, a new technology vs an old technology. Even if the benefit is very small. If you optimize several parts of an engine, you will create a much larger effect. Good injectors are the foundation of a finely tuned engine. There are many reasons why Toyota did what they did, but I'm an "advanced user" so I can unlock better features not accessible to normal folk

If we're talking about manipulating injector sizing then that's a totally different conversation than 12 hole vs 4 hole. Yes, leaning out fuel maps under load works. That's essentially the entire premise of the "tuner" culture, of which I consider myself a member. I'm totally into that. Not on my LC, but on other vehicles, sure. I had an analog AEM AFR gauge in the A-pillar of my last "fun" car for years. Probably spent hours watching that gauge 2 seconds at a time, boosting through the gears with various modifications over the years.

At any rate, this smaller injector talk is a separate discussion from the 12 hole vs 4 hole.

It's a dual benefit. Two things are happening and we can talk about both of them at the same time. What's wrong with that? Like I and others have repeated many times but you just aren't understanding is: these injectors provide the biggest benefit in smoothness and efficiency at partial throttle or idle. This has nothing to do with the air-fuel ratio provided by a smaller injector because in these low-load situations the ECU is compensating and keeping the ratio at stoich, 14.7:1. Better atomization at low-load = better MPG. It's just plain fact.

The premise of the 12 hole upgrade is that the atomization of the 12 hole injectors leads to a performance gain that is noticeably superior to the 4 hole. And I think we've already established the WOT difference is (or is supposed to be) negligible. What's up for debate is the partial throttle, closed loop performance.

Yep, and it's way better

 

[uzj100]

I think in the other thread he mentioned he originally went with 350cc or 370cc. Maybe that's what he's referring to by smaller.

Incidentally, according to the site below the 4 hole Denso 3420 / 23250-50040 is 250cc (not 270cc stated above) and 13.5 Ohms and the 12 hole Denso 4410 / 23250-20030 is 255cc and 13.7 Ohm. So pretty much plug and play with no adapter required. I couldn't find data on Denso 23250-50060 used from 2005-2007.

Denso 3420 / 23250-50040
Denso 4410 / 23250-20030

So order qty 8 4410s and plug in and go? Need to know what to order. Thanks for all the insights.

 

[Qtonic]

So order qty 8 4410s and plug in and go? Need to know what to order. Thanks for all the insights.

I'm pretty sure that's it. I have a question into an ebay seller about sending 8 flow matched instead of 6+2 or 6x2. In the name of science I may get a set of their 4-hole to compare like against like. Yes, technically they should all be sent off and verified by a second source, but at least it wouldn't be pitting 20 year old injectors vs newly rebuilt. I'm doing this out of curiosity as much as anything at this point.

 

[uzj100]

@Qtonic thank you! Are they cheaper than this? Denso 4410 / 23250-20030

 

[J1000]

I'm pretty sure that's it. I have a question into an ebay seller about sending 8 flow matched instead of 6+2 or 6x2. In the name of science I may get a set of their 4-hole to compare like against like. Yes, technically they should all be sent off and verified by a second source, but at least it wouldn't be pitting 20 year old injectors vs newly rebuilt. I'm doing this out of curiosity as much as anything at this point.

I bought two sets of 6 injectors and resold the extra 4.

 

[Qtonic]

@Qtonic thank you! Are they cheaper than this? Denso 4410 / 23250-20030

I was looking at these. OEM Denso Fuel Injectors Set (6) 23250-20030 Rebuilt & Flow Matched in the USA! | eBay

An equivalent price for 8 would be $112.

Or 6X OEM Denso Fuel Injectors for Toyota Camry Highlander Lexus ES300 3.0L 3.3L | eBay plus 2x *LIFETIME WARRANTY* Genuine Denso Fuel Injector for Toyota Lexus (3.0L 3.3L) | eBay

I'm trying to get prices down a bit. There's a seller with new (not refurb) sets of 6 at $199 or best offer if you want to spring for new. Again they might do a package of 8.

Edit: After reading their descriptions I prefer the first seller. There are others who look good, too. I'll let you know what I find. Maybe we can split a set of 6 if they won't put 8 together.

 

[roma042987]

Do you have any proof or stats or anything to back that up? I'm just asking because I installed an aftermarket air-fuel wideband controller in my truck and monitored the ECU via OBD port so that I could ensure my truck is running well within a safe zone. Just curious where your information is coming from. Thanks in advance. In actual reality better atomized fuel burns more completely and produces more efficient power so less fuel needs to be injected for the same result. That's why they were invented.

Proof to back what up? I didn't state an opinion, just a description of how the fuel injection system works.

So based on all the info you've stated are you saying these injectors are better than the ones toyota and denso developed? There's a reason the factory ones are around 100 bucks a piece. You get what you pay for.


What exactly is a "aftermarket air-fuel wide band controller" that you installed? Did you install a wide band air fuel ratio sensor? The "controller" is the ecu so that doesn't even make any sense.

 

[100club]

After following this thread
Anyone ever installed bigger injectors?

i decided to pull the trigger on a set of 12 hole injectors from Dirty Deeds. All results are positive. Improved throttle response at 20-80 % pedal position, noticeable improvement in top end pull on the highway. All this and i got another 10 miles on the odometer at the 3/4 mark on the gas gauge. I understand that this is not a scientific method but after 9 years and 65,000 miles of ownership, I know this truck very well. Curiosity got the better of me so i went ahead and filled up early. 110 miles ( Added 5% to compensate for my 285's like i do every time) i used 6.8 gallons for a mpg of 16.17. This was 70-30 city to highway. The last time checked fuel mileage it was 12.8 FYI My LX has 199k miles on it and i run a bottle of injector cleaner thru it every year.

Anybody that thinks this is snake oil is entitled to their opinion and theory. The rest of us will enjoy the reality that the truck feels like to went on a diet and lost 600 lbs. Dirty Deeds offers a full refund if not satisfied so you have nothing to lose and ever thing to gain.

Anyone in the Spokane area that wants to take my LX for a drive is welcome.....

TLC Dan

Are these the ones you used: Fuel injectors - DIRTY DEEDS INDUSTRIES

330cc or 250cc, with or without adapters?

 

[TLC Dan]

100club,
Yes these are the ones. 250cc w/o adapters......

Enjoy you hundy's weight loss

 

[100club]

100club,
Yes these are the ones. 250cc w/o adapters......

Enjoy you hundy's weight loss

Thanks Dan!

 

[uzj100]

Now for the 12 hole challenge - why an almost $250 difference between dirty deeds and ebay/injector site? Especially without dyno results and actual data.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Proof to back what up? I didn't state an opinion, just a description of how the fuel injection system works.

So based on all the info you've stated are you saying these injectors are better than the ones toyota and denso developed? There's a reason the factory ones are around 100 bucks a piece. You get what you pay for.


What exactly is a "aftermarket air-fuel wide band controller" that you installed? Did you install a wide band air fuel ratio sensor? The "controller" is the ecu so that doesn't even make any sense.

I'm with you.

I just want some numbers, lol. That's all. I don't mean to incite riots or anything. Not looking to offend anyone or say anyone's wrong. I just want some objective evidence for the sake of learning.

Maybe it's me, but I feel like this is the conversation I'm having with folks on this topic:

Me: "Interesting idea. Any data showing the improvement?"
Others: "No. It won't show up on a dyno at WOT and it's too hard to show it in any other test. Just try it out for yourself. You'll feel the difference."
Me: "Hmmm... that's what I hear about intake tornados, Electrical filters, Oil additives, gas additives, etc... I think there's gotta be a way to show the data for this improvement."
Others: "No, it's just facts. Better atomization = better performance. It's science. Buy it and see for yourself."
Me: "Uh...."

Yes, the 12-hole injectors are seen on newer models/engines. Yes, it makes sense that they'd atomize slightly better in the intake manifold than the 4. Does that result in better performance? I don't know, but I need more than some butt-dyno commentary to be convinced. How do we know the difference felt isn't the difference between partially clogged, unclean 10-20 year old injectors vs brand new, clean ones? Maybe the injector holes makes a 0.5% difference and the cleanliness makes a 6% difference. If that's true then the recommendation shouldn't be to spend $300-800 on new injectors, but rather a cleaning service for $100.

RC Engineering or Injector Dynamics never seem to mention # of holes in their product listing of high end injectors. Are they missing this secret ingredient? Have I missed people building performance engines bragging about the number of holes in their injectors all these years? Maybe, I suppose.

Atomization also changes throughout the intake path. Atomization may improve or degrade as you flow from the injector site to the combustion chamber. This could change any upgrades made at the injector itself.

There are a ton of variables here and nobody seems to have the desire to build a data set on this. Therefore, my skepticism only grows...

Raw data from a half day on a dyno with a fresh set of 4 hole and a fresh set of 12 hole injectors would prove this all out. Just get on the dyno and run many runs at varying throttle input. You could plot the throttle input or load against the output power and account for minor variances (it'll be hard to hold exactly 25% throttle). With a wideband you could also plot the AFR differences (if any) in closed loop. You could monitor injector duty cycle, fuel trims, etc... the list goes on and on. Instead we have nothing. No data from anybody aside from a few MPG posts from a couple tanks of gas and a video of an AFR gauge with undersized injectors.

I just want data!

 

[gatormark91]

Multiple averaged back-to-back dyno runs with the injectors being the only change is the only data I need to see. Until then, any claimed improvements are just that... claimed. It may be a true change, it may be not, but without scientific testing, is just not scientifically tenable to claim improvement.

 

[Murckman]

These threads always evolve into dyno seekers. Is it even worth the money and time to get multiple before and after readings on a 4 wheel dyno on a part that costs $300, let alone the eBay $90 ones?

 

[J1000]

Proof to back what up? I didn't state an opinion, just a description of how the fuel injection system works.

You implied that installing these injectors will result in damage to the engine and/or injectors. What is that based on? Nothing but woo woo as far as I can tell.

So based on all the info you've stated are you saying these injectors are better than the ones toyota and denso developed? There's a reason the factory ones are around 100 bucks a piece. You get what you pay for.

The 12-hole injectors I installed ARE manufactured by DENSO for TOYOTA.

What exactly is a "aftermarket air-fuel wide band controller" that you installed? Did you install a wide band air fuel ratio sensor? The "controller" is the ecu so that doesn't even make any sense.

The sensor by itself is a useless chunk of rare earth metals, so installing that by itself..."doesn't even make any sense." Did you see the video I posted? No. You probably didn't even read 10% of this thread before you started posting ignorant thoughts.

 

[J1000]

Now for the 12 hole challenge - why an almost $250 difference between dirty deeds and ebay/injector site? Especially without dyno results and actual data.

Research is done for the customer and delivered in a plug-n-play solution vs. having to figure it out on your own or with the help of some nice fellows on this forum. People pay for convenience.

 

[J1000]

Raw data from a half day on a dyno with a fresh set of 4 hole and a fresh set of 12 hole injectors would prove this all out. Just get on the dyno and run many runs at varying throttle input. You could plot the throttle input or load against the output power and account for minor variances (it'll be hard to hold exactly 25% throttle). With a wideband you could also plot the AFR differences (if any) in closed loop. You could monitor injector duty cycle, fuel trims, etc... the list goes on and on. Instead we have nothing. No data from anybody aside from a few MPG posts from a couple tanks of gas and a video of an AFR gauge with undersized injectors.

I just want data!

I agree wholeheartedly! If you are so kind, please PM me. I will submit my paypal address where you can donate. I will dyno my truck if the funds are raised to help me and I will swap injectors on the dyno. Dyno time is about $250 an hour.

 

[roma042987]

You implied that installing these injectors will result in damage to the engine and/or injectors. What is that based on? Nothing but woo woo as far as I can tell.

The first post has a link that implies the injectors are oversized. I’m not sure what woo woo is but yes undersized or oversized injectors or more precisely rich or lean fuel mixture WILL cause adverse affects. It’s not a question of if but more of how soon.

The 12-hole injectors I installed ARE manufactured by DENSO for TOYOTA.

The first post also states these are from “Dirty deeds” or whatever nowhere did I see that these are denso injectors. If they are, do the old part numbers supersede to these? Because that’s generally what happens when a new and improved COMPATIBLE part is developed.


The sensor by itself is a useless chunk of rare earth metals, so installing that by itself..."doesn't even make any sense." Did you see the video I posted? No. You probably didn't even read 10% of this thread before you started posting ignorant thoughts.

I know what a wide band sensor is I worked at “tuner” shop with a dyno before I spent ten years as a dealer tech. You didn’t answer my question what is this “wide band controller” you speak of.

 

[J1000]

I know what a wide band sensor is I worked at “tuner” shop with a dyno before I spent ten years as a dealer tech. You didn’t answer my question what is this “wide band controller” you speak of.

Obviously not. A "wideband controller" is the common name given to the complete package of a gauge, sensor, and...the controller that controls the sensor in an aftermarket install. You could have googled it yourself in 2 seconds and you probably know what I'm talking about anyway, you're just arguing in bad faith and being purposefully ignorant to stall actual discussion (where it will be exposed you are wrong).

In other words, this is what I installed in my truck:
Wideband UEGO Air/Fuel Controllers | AEM We Pioneered the Wideband AFR Gauge