My experience with 12 hole injectors. Awesome! (2 Viewers)

[TLC Dan]

After following this thread
Anyone ever installed bigger injectors?

i decided to pull the trigger on a set of 12 hole injectors from Dirty Deeds. All results are positive. Improved throttle response at 20-80 % pedal position, noticeable improvement in top end pull on the highway. All this and i got another 10 miles on the odometer at the 3/4 mark on the gas gauge. I understand that this is not a scientific method but after 9 years and 65,000 miles of ownership, I know this truck very well. Curiosity got the better of me so i went ahead and filled up early. 110 miles ( Added 5% to compensate for my 285's like i do every time) i used 6.8 gallons for a mpg of 16.17. This was 70-30 city to highway. The last time checked fuel mileage it was 12.8 FYI My LX has 199k miles on it and i run a bottle of injector cleaner thru it every year.

Anybody that thinks this is snake oil is entitled to their opinion and theory. The rest of us will enjoy the reality that the truck feels like to went on a diet and lost 600 lbs. Dirty Deeds offers a full refund if not satisfied so you have nothing to lose and ever thing to gain.

Anyone in the Spokane area that wants to take my LX for a drive is welcome.....

TLC Dan

 

[roma042987]

These trucks have o2 sensors that control fuel delivery based on air fuel ratio. Bigger injectors mean less duty cycle that is all. New oem injectors would yield the same results. That’s not an opinion but just some insight on how the PGMFI system works.

 

[toyotaspeed90]

Or simply sending your injectors to witch hunter (here in WA).

My opinion...
12 holes seems odd and excessive. I've used multiple OE injectors for the "same" engine that utilizes 1, 2 and 4 holes. Generally those OEs have different flow rates, but FPR and pressures are the same. As previously mentioned, quantity of fuel is determined by factors having little to do with the injector - short of the flow rate of the injector.

The number of holes *might* play into atomization of the gas, but how the fuel flows through the chamber is actually determined by the number of valves and the angle (again, external to the injector). I would think the 'more' holes in the same area means smaller holes - meaning with time they're more prone to clogging. Whether theres 1 or 12 holes, theres still only 1 pintle.

 

[TLC Dan]

These injectors are not bigger as much as the have 12 holes versus 4. This yields better fuel atomization. If this is not an improvement then why doesn't Toyota still use 4 hole? I don't work for Dirty Deeds and i am not trying to sell injectors. I have been making improvements to vehicles for 35 years and like to pass along nice upgrades when they become available and this upgrade is the best performance improvement i have found for my hundy short of a blower......

 

[nukegoat]

Placebo. Probably. I dont really know how this would help unless you were getting poor combustion to start

 

[Murckman]

These injectors are not bigger as much as the have 12 holes versus 4. This yields better fuel atomization. If this is not an improvement then why doesn't Toyota still use 4 hole? I don't work for Dirty Deeds and i am not trying to sell injectors. I have been making improvements to vehicles for 35 years and like to pass along nice upgrades when they become available and this upgrade is the best performance improvement i have found for my hundy short of a blower......

Is there a specific part number for these injectors? I can’t really figure it out from their website. Also did you need to purchase the adapters?

 

[TLC Dan]

Murckman,
Just call them and talk to Kevin. I went with the 250CC injectors not the 330's. No adapters required.

Nukegoat. My truck has always ran great. It just runs better now that i have to push less on the pedal to get the same throttle response. Why would Toyota have changed to 12 hole injectors on the newer LC's and Tundra's? They must not know what they are doing. I think you should contact them and tell them that they are wasting their time as you obviously know more than the Toyota engineers do.........

Buy a set. Install them and tell me i am wrong. i challenge you...... or STFU. Talk is cheap without real world knowledge which in this case, you don't have.

 

[Ayune]

Anybody that thinks this is snake oil is entitled to their opinion and theory.

i challenge you...... or STFU. Talk is cheap without real world knowledge which in this case, you don't have.

Which is it? Take your anger somewhere else.

 

[TLC Dan]

Yea Ayune,
Point well taken. I suffer from being a diehard analytical with an attitude, my bad. show me facts not theory.
All is good with anyone's opinion but show me some facts that Toyota engineers are wrong and nobody is ably to do that.

It's all good. We are on the same team trying to improve an already awesome vehicle.....

 

[suprarx7nut]

I took a bunch of data logs with Torque to try to establish a baseline before doing the swap. It's still on my to-do list, but pretty low priority. Kevin even offered to help facilitate the testing. I spoke to him for a while on the phone and trust he's not just dealing snake oil, but can't really get excited about this either.

I need to see some hard data. So far, it's all anecdotes.

I do track mileage like a maniac so perhaps the mileage logs alone will be enough to prove out the difference for my own needs if I do this. If there's no statistically significant MPG difference and there's no peak power difference I'm not sure how there could be any benefit. Both peak power and MPG can be proved out easily enough. If I were a vendor for these I'd lead my product listing with those results.

 

[J1000]

Placebo. Probably. I dont really know how this would help unless you were getting poor combustion to start

It helps by improving fuel atomization. 12 fine holes vs. 4 larger holes is a big difference.

Finer fuel atomization = more complete burn of the fuel. Same power by burning less fuel, improved MPG, HP, etc.

Oh wait no sorry it's all just placebo junk. Cars basically are the same as they were 20 years ago. Nothing has improved.

 

[Txcoast]

I took a bunch of data logs with Torque to try to establish a baseline before doing the swap. It's still on my to-do list, but pretty low priority. Kevin even offered to help facilitate the testing. I spoke to him for a while on the phone and trust he's not just dealing snake oil, but can't really get excited about this either.

I need to see some hard data. So far, it's all anecdotes.

I do track mileage like a maniac so perhaps the mileage logs alone will be enough to prove out the difference for my own needs if I do this. If there's no statistically significant MPG difference and there's no peak power difference I'm not sure how there could be any benefit. Both peak power and MPG can be proved out easily enough. If I were a vendor for these I'd lead my product listing with those results.

I'm mostly commenting because I love engines, and I enjoy these discussions.

To your point about peak power and MPG being proved out easily; I'm not sure if I buy off on that. I think that most benefits seen from increasing the number of holes in the injectors would be pretty anecdotal, and difficult to prove any true improvement on a vehicle running down the road. I'm not saying that there wouldn't possibly be a difference, but there's so many factors going into those two numbers (power and MPG) that I can't really buy that anything could be truly proved out with pen and paper at the fuel pump and a feeling in the pedal. That's the reason the vast majority of engine and fuel testing occurs in a lab, where most aspects can be controlled for.

And the atomization from 12 small holes may be slightly "better" than the OE injectors, but there's going to be differences in longevity and reliability. Smaller injector holes clog easier as mentioned above.

That being said, there very well could be some small benefits in the short term for the 2UZ, and the drawbacks in terms of longevity and reliability are being controlled for by Toyota in the 3UR engines.

Also, here's a cool video:

 

[roma042987]

Murckman,
Just call them and talk to Kevin. I went with the 250CC injectors not the 330's. No adapters required.

Nukegoat. My truck has always ran great. It just runs better now that i have to push less on the pedal to get the same throttle response. Why would Toyota have changed to 12 hole injectors on the newer LC's and Tundra's? They must not know what they are doing. I think you should contact them and tell them that they are wasting their time as you obviously know more than the Toyota engineers do.........

Buy a set. Install them and tell me i am wrong. i challenge you...... or STFU. Talk is cheap without real world knowledge which in this case, you don't have.

Newer land cruisers and tundras don’t have a 2uz so can’t really compare those. Have to compare apples to apples. Different fuel pressures, injector placement, all play a role. I don’t discredit the fact that you’re noticing a difference, after all you’re replacing a 20 year old injector with a new one. A more valid comparison would be say a dyno run or mpg comparison between these and another set of new OEM injectors. That’s where I don’t think you would see any gains.

 

[roma042987]

Also something to consider is those static spray pattern tests are just that STATIC. An engine operating is going to have a considerable vacuum in the intake which will affect the atomization.

 

[J1000]

I took a bunch of data logs with Torque to try to establish a baseline before doing the swap. It's still on my to-do list, but pretty low priority. Kevin even offered to help facilitate the testing. I spoke to him for a while on the phone and trust he's not just dealing snake oil, but can't really get excited about this either.

I need to see some hard data. So far, it's all anecdotes.

I do track mileage like a maniac so perhaps the mileage logs alone will be enough to prove out the difference for my own needs if I do this. If there's no statistically significant MPG difference and there's no peak power difference I'm not sure how there could be any benefit. Both peak power and MPG can be proved out easily enough. If I were a vendor for these I'd lead my product listing with those results.

Here is some hard data, something you can easily check on your own truck. At full throttle these trucks run at about 11:1 to 11.5:1 air-fuel ratio. Peak horsepower on gasoline is usually around 12.2:1 to 13:1. Any way we can lean out these trucks will make more horsepower. It's science.

That's the reason TLC Dan chose to install smaller 250cc injectors versus the factory 275cc injectors; to lean out the air-fuel mixture in addition to the other benefits of 12-holes.

Here is a video of my truck accelerating at WOT showing 12:1 AFR with a set of 12-hole 250cc injectors:

 

[Murckman]

TLC Dan,
Thanks for the info. I think I’ll give them a call.
I installed a Unichip Plug and Play ECU upgrade about two years ago and it made a huge difference too. I also got negative comments saying without dyno results that it was snake oil too. But like you it worked for me so that’s really all that matters.

 

[Txcoast]

Here is some hard data, something you can easily check on your own truck. At full throttle these trucks run at about 11:1 to 11.5:1 air-fuel ratio. Peak horsepower on gasoline is usually around 12.2:1 to 13:1. Any way we can lean out these trucks will make more horsepower. It's science.

That's the reason TLC Dan chose to install smaller 250cc injectors versus the factory 275cc injectors; to lean out the air-fuel mixture in addition to the other benefits of 12-holes.

Here is a video of my truck accelerating at WOT showing 12:1 AFR with a set of 12-hole 250cc injectors:

Now we're talking! Man, I need one of those gauges.

I was looking at it purely from a equal fuel quantity perspective. Leaning out the mixture and getting closer to stoichiometric is typically a good thing. I will say though, I think the benefits of the differences in atomization are a bit overblown. There's a huge effect of the gas dynamics and flow around the valves and the ports, and none of that is changing. If we were talking DFI, it'd be a totally different story.

Either way, cool stuff.

 

[roma042987]

If these undersized injectors are in fact leaning out the mixture that means they are running at a higher duty cycle and unable to keep up with what the o2 sensors and ecm is trying to get the engine to run at. Not something I’d recommend.

 

[roma042987]

I think with these we can pick up at least a few more horses and be as efficient as a Prius

 

[suprarx7nut]

Here is some hard data, something you can easily check on your own truck. At full throttle these trucks run at about 11:1 to 11.5:1 air-fuel ratio. Peak horsepower on gasoline is usually around 12.2:1 to 13:1. Any way we can lean out these trucks will make more horsepower. It's science.

That's the reason TLC Dan chose to install smaller 250cc injectors versus the factory 275cc injectors; to lean out the air-fuel mixture in addition to the other benefits of 12-holes.

Here is a video of my truck accelerating at WOT showing 12:1 AFR with a set of 12-hole 250cc injectors:

Alright, now I'm confused. This is the first I'm hearing about (or at least the first time I'm catching onto) the idea that these 12 hole injectors are smaller. Of course that will improve peak power by leaning out the open loop portion of the ECU map. That should be very easily provable on a dyno. It's done all the time in the tuner world, albeit normally using the same OEM injectors (or larger) and manipulating the ECU signal for airflow and/or injector impulses to "pull fuel" throughout strategically chosen portions of the fuel map. No matter how you "pull fuel", it will also introduce riskier situations that Toyota intentionally avoided by using the injector size and fuel map they did. I think it also has negative emissions implications for NOx as well, but I'm less versed in that.

If we're talking about manipulating injector sizing then that's a totally different conversation than 12 hole vs 4 hole. Yes, leaning out fuel maps under load works. That's essentially the entire premise of the "tuner" culture, of which I consider myself a member. I'm totally into that. Not on my LC, but on other vehicles, sure. I had an analog AEM AFR gauge in the A-pillar of my last "fun" car for years. Probably spent hours watching that gauge 2 seconds at a time, boosting through the gears with various modifications over the years.

At any rate, this smaller injector talk is a separate discussion from the 12 hole vs 4 hole.

The premise of the 12 hole upgrade is that the atomization of the 12 hole injectors leads to a performance gain that is noticeably superior to the 4 hole. And I think we've already established the WOT difference is (or is supposed to be) negligible. What's up for debate is the partial throttle, closed loop performance.