Mud Tires poor on Ice??

[SUMOTOY]

Oh, that would be fun. Of course, between registration and having to buy a set of studless snows I could probably afford a trip to the Caribbean. Or maybe it will just go to diapers

Amazing to discover the cost of real fun? We do this as a break even enterprise to boot! And I have to sign the contract 1year in advance to even get the dates! And they get some bizzare rentals, like Haliburton with full tandem axle trailers on the skidpad..

You also forget comparing it to driving on a frozen lake, this is an actual multiplane road course with off camber, blind turns, and uphill yumps.... Nay, the good news is, once you go, you nix the carribbean trip, sell the kid, buy a set of wheels and blizzacks, and look forward to next February before you even left the town of Steamboat. We even have several women who have become addicted.

I myself have done this trek from Chicago for 14years straight, and organized it for the last 4. Easy for me to justify, because it's a lot cheaper than my old prorally habit.

Whomever is local to Steamboat should really come up (bring helmet) and go for a ride. We have a lot of ex-racers who clearly redefine the definition of awd performance driving. As I read the tepid opinions on locking center diffs, all I can think of is how quickly that thinking would change at this venue....

Romer and the Colorado et. al? I'd even put one of the 80's to work as Big Dog (that's our acromym for tow)....

Scott Justusson

 

[cary]

Just to add to Scott's comments about going and playing in Steamboat. Driving on ice and snow tracks is a great way to get a feel of how your vehicle is going to perform when you hit that unexpected section of glare ice or snow over ice on the road. Many people don't realize it but vehicles respond differently to inputs and require a different driving style on low mu surfaces versus high mu surfaces like a standard race track.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Just to add to Scott's comments about going and playing in Steamboat. Driving on ice and snow tracks is a great way to get a feel of how your vehicle is going to perform when you hit that unexpected section of glare ice or snow over ice on the road. Many people don't realize it but vehicles respond differently to inputs and require a different driving style on low mu surfaces versus high mu surfaces like a standard race track.

Very well put, Cary! As an old ProRally guy, I try to get anyone I can into the fold of either Rallycross, ice racing (non stud), or Steamboat Winter Track School/events. We are hoping to expand Gruppe-q into some Teen clinics as well, since there is nothing like controlled seat time to make sure 'both' your loved ones (blood and machine) come home safe.

I've also taught high performance driving at several marque driving schools (mostly quattro), and believe that too many people 'think' they know how to drive, but really tend to have a lot of bad habits. And very few ever get close to exploring the limits of awd. My sell for Steamboat has always been that you will learn more vehicle control in 2 days at Steamboat than if you went to 10 tarmac or offroad events.

Both my folks have been to Steamboat, as has my wife. My teen won't be there this year on her permit, but certainly in '08.

The worst time to learn what's outside of the bounds of physics, is when it becomes unexpectedly imperative you stay within the bounds...

That said, Steamboat also has a corporate program using their cars and instructors (1/2 day or equivelent experience required for my event) that is worth every penny. It's also a bonus for anyone on 'Mud, the Corporate School is also sponsored by Toyota, and even have some of the big trucks there as well.

To this thread specifically, interesting to note, not a single MT tire would make it around either of their ice courses IMO.

Scott Justusson
www.gruppe-q.com

 

[NorCalSam]

Just out of curiosity, were your running the older BFG A/T or the newer KO version? Also were they a D or E rated tire?

I belive that they were the old a/ts because it have been like 6 years or more since I bought a set of those tires. You should also now that we had light pick-ups too. Witch as you now inherently like to slide in the rear do to the lighter weight. We keept extra weight in the back in the winter but it never helped enough. They were 31x10.5 D rated tires.

I have often thought that an 80 with all wheel drive and much better weight balance might do better. But I think I am going to get the Goodyear Silent Armor 305/70/r16.
What do you think about those?

 

[MTNRAT]

Mud tires suck on ice PERIOD!

 

[spartan]

In my experience mud tires simply do not function well for on road snow, ice or wet conditions. In fact I've witnessed a number of accidents directly attributable to mud tires and their lack of effectiveness on the road in adverse weather conditions. I love the look and what they can do off road, but they are not practical for the average person.

As for the newer mud tires that have some factory siping thrown in - I personally think it's just a gimmick. The large cleats of a mud tire are not going to flex on the road to enable the siping to do anything. They may help off road when the tire is aired down and flexing, but not on the road.

I'm currently in the quest for a hybrid AT / MT tire and the only ones that I am considering at this point are the PJ Dirt Grip, Pro Comp Extreme AT and the Cooper Discoverer ST.

The PJ's are extremely expensive and I am told that the siping dissapears fast as it is not cut that deep. The Cooper is size limited, but does come in a 255 85 16 size for the skinny tire lover in us all. The Extreme AT is made by Cooper, but I can't get a fix on how well they perform. They do have a factory 40,000 mile tread warranty so they can't be too soft.

It's hard to beat Nitto TG's, Toyo's or BFG AT's for snow and ice performance. The Nitto's are better on and off road, but I have been dissapointed with tread life compared to the BFG's.

 

[Jason Andrews]

Update: First impression of IROKS vs bfg MT

I got a chance to test out the new treads in ~6 of snow and slush and compare to what I was used to..bfgmuds. The bfgs are down right dangerous compared to a softer rubber compound and factory siping of my iroks. I have no abs so I would easily lock up the 35bfgs into uncontrollable slides. Even on just wet roads with no cold weather. This makes rear end collisions a fear. The softer rubber and siping makes a great bit of difference.

Locking the CDL will still give a better improvement in braking and handling in traction compromising situations than most any tire will from my experience. Unless, you are making a three point turn of course. The CDL is great for keeping equal braking power and not locking up the tires!

Hey Romer, how do you like the TOYOs? Better or worse than the bfg ATs?

That being said, most people are a big fan/proponent of what they are using. I was a fan of BFGs before trying something else. The M/Ts are great if you are in mud, or on the highway they last long but other than that they suck!

 

[Romer]

Hey Romer, how do you like the TOYOs? Better or worse than the bfg ATs?

I like them. Not loud on the highway and good ride. Even though they had siping on them, I paid extra to have them siped some more. They worked fine during the first snow storm of the season. Haven't really tested them yet though.

 

[FirstToy]

As for the newer mud tires that have some factory siping thrown in - I personally think it's just a gimmick. The large cleats of a mud tire are not going to flex on the road to enable the siping to do anything. They may help off road when the tire is aired down and flexing, but not on the road.

I think they added it to try and make the tires last a bit longer- but I can't see how the siping (1 sipe per lug) would do anything valuable either...

I have to defer to MtnRat- since he prob. has alot of experience being in the frosty north.

btw, I knew a tire designer for Goodyear and she said 90% of the the tread designs were for styling only. There are only a few fundamental things that make real differences.

 

[IdahoDoug]

"btw, I knew a tire designer for Goodyear and she said 90% of the the tread designs were for styling only. There are only a few fundamental things that make real differences."

Amen. Pick a good quality recent design, inflate it properly, and relax. Too much is often made of "this is the best tire EVER".

DougM

 

[mnwolftrack]

Our winters are typically 6-7 months here in Minnesota and can be quite harsh with temps below -30F. My '90 4Runner has 35" Goodyear MTR's and my '85 Toyota pickup has 33" Bridgestone Desert Dueler MT's. Traction is not good on ice as-is, however, I had the tires siped as previously metioned and it helped immensly. So much so that since I'm due for tires on my recently aquired '96 FZJ-80, I'm not the least bit concerned about putting mud tires on (and getting them siped). Note that I am not talking about Super Swamper Thornbirds or anything that is considered an extremely agressive MT. Rather, I am referring to the more typical brands I already own or the Firestone Destination MT, General Grabber MT, or BF Goodrich MT.

The aftermarket siping adds biting edges and also hold in bits of sand/gravel for added traction.

 

[bigreen505]

To be perfectly honest I have never had a set of tires that were good in all winter conditions. The closest I have had were a set of ProComp A/T's as a 31x10.5 and many years ago a set of Michelin Artic Alpin 100's. Both of those were excellent in packed snow and reasonably reasonably deep snow, and close to useless on ice. I have run two sets of Nokian Hakka 1's, one set of Hakka 2's, one set of Hakka Q's and one set of Gislaved II's. I would say they were all pretty equal in that they were good on ice and slush and worthless in any snow deeper than 3", particularly if it was very loose and powerdery. They were all studded. I had one set of Vredestein's that, while studded, were worthless on ice, but phenomenal in deep snow -- they could pull through anything. They were also the worst hydroplaning tire I have ever experienced. I currently have a set of Michelin X-Ice's on a Subaru and they are okay, but nothing too exciting. I like they way the slide -- very smooth and predictable, just like the old Alpin 100's.

I also have experience with the Michelin LTX M&S and they do just fine as a snow tire on a heavy vehicle, say anything over 5,000 lb.

I have no M/T snow experience, but just posting to say that the dedicated ice tires are not the be all end all on anything but ice. Winter brings many different road conditions and finding a tire that works equally well on all of them is a futile chase. Find one that works okay in the majority of what you need to drive. I put my priorities on dry road, wet road, slush, packed snow, deep snow and ice, in that order.

Bill

 

[Nay]

It's hard to beat Nitto TG's, Toyo's or BFG AT's for snow and ice performance. The Nitto's are better on and off road, but I have been dissapointed with tread life compared to the BFG's.

You should call my neighbor with a Tacoma and BFG AT ko's and tell him that. He got stuck in his driveway after our blizzard a couple of weeks ago. Slid right off the edge of the driveway into the mud, throwing snow and mud everywhere, going nowhere. Had no traction at any point - only reason he got out in the morning is because it was downhill. Just like my experience with BFG AT's on a number of occasions. I would have taken some pictures of the snow and mud caked all over his tires just for this thread, but we have to be sensitive .

Anyway, being the good neighbor I saw him getting ready for a nice hour of shoveling to get unstuck and offered my assistance. I drove up his driveway and past him at idle speed in AWD low and pulled him back onto the driveway, but he still couldn't come forward even with the rear now locked, so I had to quadruple up the strap and idle forward into his garage as far as I would fit to finally get to some snow he could spin down to the pavement at what must have been 4K RPM.

I never slipped a tire and didn't bother locking. Sure made me wish I had BFG AT's for 80K miles and the next 10 years when I have far superior traction pulling another vehicle with BFG AT's than that vehicle has on its own with a rear locker engaged.

On the other side (hardpack and ice), we had a somewhat unexpected storm about three weeks ago that packed and iced up really badly, right at rush hour. I stayed off the interstate as up my way the big rigs become a real mess when storms hit like this one. Traffic stopped on my first route with people unable to get up hills, so I took an alternate back way and hit a steep and icy hill that was bad enough you had to be really careful walking on it.

A bunch of cars were off the road, and I stopped to help extract. I watched so many different vehicles slide down that hill that it was a real concern that none of us get hit during these extractions, especially when I was sideways to the hill strapping out a Tahoe. I just wonder how my tires were able to do this when so many people tell me that they suck PERIOD and yet I didn't slip once pulling sidways on ice with the weight of another vehicle to deal with.

These are two pics I took just for this thread. The first shows the easy progress with zero throttle and no tread-cleaning-snow-throwing through about 18 inches, and the second shows the tread patch the next morning after driving on it a second time. You should notice three things about the second picture:

1) All of the snow that was packed into the contact patch was left in the track;
2) This "MT" is not a unidirectional tread but yet the contact patch shows bite going forward on both sides of the contact patch;
3) How much of the tread is designed to lateral traction, especially the center groove.

All of this is the difference between believing a preconception is accurate vs. actually putting it to the test. You cannot compare a tire like the old style BFG MT, which I would not even take onto a hardpacked and icy road unless I absolutely had to, to a tire like the Trxus MT, just because both of them say "MT". It is overgeneralizing and inaccurate, because in today's world MT's fall on both sides of the spectrum of snow and ice performance.

Nay

 

[bigreen505]

Nay, how many miles do you have on you Trxus tires? They are very high on my list for my next set, but I've heard traction gets very poor part wy through the tread depth.

 

[Hants]

Hmmmm, Nay, my experience with AT's this past storm was very positive:

My AT's have about 9K on them and are down about 6MM. We had about 2' during this past storm. Our roads weren't plowed until 2 days later (Sunday).

My treads stayed clear, I had great directional stability, and power to spare (in 4L). I shifted into 4Low with the CDL on while I was still in the garage, then backed out and drove. I had no problems up hills, down hills, stopping, accellerating, or turning. Including in places where other cars were slipping around or making no forward progress, I just drove around. I pulled 2 cars back onto the road with no difficulty whatsoever.

I took the opportunity and practiced emergency braking. With the CDL off (so ABS was enabled), I had somewhat longer stopping distances, but mantained directional stability. With the CDL on (and ABS off), I could stop on a dime. My guess is that the LC is so heavy that it just piled the snow in front of the tires and dropped down to the pavement. This did cause the back in to swing out of line a touch on the underlying ice.

The LC on 33" AT's, low gear and CDL was much more controlled and "effortless" than our Honda Pilot (on Michelin Cross Terrains, ABS & Traction Control) in the same conditions.

For those of you in other areas of the country, this was not a super cold storm, and the snow was pretty wet and heavy. Dry, fluffy snow would probably yield different results. Black ice from repeated warm-freeze cycles would be a lot different.

And I didn't try any side-hill extractions

Just my semi-on-topic $.02

 

[41magsnub]

My rig had Kelly Safari MSR's on it when I purchased it. It was winter in Jackson, WY. I asked to have them replaced, as I was not happy with their performance on packed snow, especially when trying to stop. The dealer told me they are designed for this weather and to try them a little longer. Meanwhile, the dealer installed 6 new Kelly Safari MSR on his dually, after all the raving he heard about them when he was looking into my inquiry. Drove his truck to Montana for the weekend, came back and pulled every tire off his truck and gave me $600.00 to replace my Kelly Safari MSR too.
Those tires scared the **** out of him!
I got some Mastercraft studded tires from Big-O and never had another problem!

Old thread but I thought I would confirm this with my Kelly MSR's. I picked up my new 1994 FZJ80 this weekend and drove from Great Falls to Missoula. It has 245 Safari MSR's w/o siping. Awful traction on ice and snow. I'm now doing my research to replace them since a: the ice and snow deal and b: they are tiny.. smaller than stock.

 

[Brian Macgyver]

Many good points made above. Driver perception is the best one. Every truck is different, even within the same model type.
It has been shown that a narrow tire with open tread and a small (street-like) tread pattern works best on ice. The narrow tire also cuts down through snow or related muck to get at the ice, rock or gravel below to find traction.
If the snow cover is deep enough, the narrow tire cannot cut deep enough. Then the wide, mud type tread might be better. Then the mud tire with tread siping would be best.
Siping works best if the siped tire has been run on dry pavement long enough to wear the sipes into fine points.
There are too many variables. I rely on the old tried and true. Double cleated snow chains. It is like putting tank treads on your truck. I wrap them around the tires, and then put thick bunjee cords on the outsides to pull them tight. Each 1/2" shock cord has several hooks to hold them tight. I mostly make my chains and shock cords custom. I can run them 40-50 MPH without them falling off.
When I had my original dryrotted Michelins, my LC had incredible traction on ice. The tires put an 8" patch of hard rubber on the road. This cut into the ice. I could drive for miles on sheets of ice easily.
Since I got the 315 Nittos, I put a larger area of rubber on the road. The wider tires don't grab as well on major ice.

 

[PoorHouse]

Just want to point out that the stock Michelin LTX's will not "cut into the ice."
No rubber tire will do that. They are a heavily siped all season that do OK in winter.

The only thing that will cut into ice are studs. A studded snow tire is a huge improvement over the LTX.

 

[kmcoop7]

siping

I am currently running heavily siped 315/75R16 Dick Cepek Mud countrys and am very impressed with their ice performance. I bet they would make it around that steamboat track. Generally mud tires are terrible on the ice, but great in deep snow. I live at 7k feet in the mountains of colorado and have had lots of trouble with unsiped muds in the past. Touch the brakes lock up. I would say that my current DC's are comparable to BFG at wich are pretty good on all but glare ice (where everything is bad) and close to the current Studded General grabber AT2 we have on our other truck. These studded Generals are likely the best tires I have ever experienced in the CO mountains which can be quite hazzardous. I always have confidence in them.

I think a good soft compound mud (Truxus, Dick Cepeck, Mickey Thompson) siped is a reasonable ice tire. If you drive in deep snow also, there is nothing that will do what they do. I can claw 1mm at a time no matter how deep the snow when I am all locked up. If you really want muds that perform on ice get Procomp mts and stud and sipe them. I think the old school firestone/bfg/goodyear muds are too hard to allow siping to be effective.

 

[LINUS]

I'll cast a vote in favor of the Goodyear MTR's -- I haven't siped them (I'll do that when I hit the base layer compound) & I find they do reasonably well on hardpack snow. True ice I'd have to say they do as good as any non-ice specific tire, but we all know it's a free-for-all there.

I don't know if they have any of the long chain carbon like some passenger car winter tires, or if the tread blocks are functional or asthetic, but I know they are a softer compound than most others.

I use them to drive to the local ski area (Mount Baker), and I never have gotten myself stuck in ~8 years & 3 sets (2 old design/1 newer kevlar) of MTR's - I should carry chains, but the traction has been so good I've never even bought a set.

Maybe that would be a good ad campaign :

Goodyear MTR's - There's a lot worse winter tires than ours!