Builds Moonshine - A Build Thread (1 Viewer)

[boots4]

Anyone know where this goes?

Questions:
- Is there any kind of sleeve or something that goes between the injector bore in the head and the injectors themselves?
- Do the injectors have to be pressed into place or does the retaining nut seat them down?

That washer goes on the fuel pin right underneath the diaphragm. It's a stopper and its purpose is to limit the amount of travel the fuel pin will travel down as boost is pushing against the diaphragm on top of it in the AFC part of the Injection Pump. A potential mod is to shave/reduce the thickness of that washer a little so that the fuel pin can travel further down when being pushed by boost and give you a little more fuel. On the stock fuel pin you can only go so far until the shape of the cone starts transitioning back so at that point the rod traveling on the fuel pin will not travel out any further and will actually start to reduce fueling due to the shape on the pin which will cause it to travel back in. If you see the travel track on your fuel pin you can see that there is still a little more depth the fuel rod can travel out if the fuel pin could travel down just a little more. Anyways, that's where that washer goes.


As for the injectors that retaining nut torqued to spec is all that's needed. The copper washer that slides over the injector nozzle does the sealing. The thickness of the washer is important and is one way to adjust the injector spray, to get it in the piston bowl. If you replaced those with the same size that were on them when you pulled them the first time you should be good. Even if those weren't the right thickness that shouldn't keep the engine from starting, it just wouldn't right/be smokey/hot egt's depending on which way you went on the thickness. you know if they weren't sealing you could loose compression that way, which would be important to a compression engine.

 

[boots4]

The nice thing is that you are getting the same answers over on 4btswaps too, I've just been following this one so the answers are being duplicated. I guess that helps confirm things though.

Did you ever check your oil to see if any diesel is getting in?

With all that you've done for troubleshooting it looks like you'll need to get in deeper into the IP. Maybe it's simple like the governor spring came off. If not I unfortunately agree that pulling the IP for testing may be the next step.

 

[Wyoming]

Remember it took me around a week and a half to get mine started the first time. One of the things that I'm thinking is that every time I opened the fuel system to make sure that I had it together right I had the potential to introduce more air into the system. I think one of the keys to getter it started was trusting that I had the fuel lines together right and tight. Something else I feel was a contributing factor to getting it started was bleeding both bleeder valves, the one at the lift pump and the one at the IP. On the p-pump it is the banjo fitting for the return fuel line, or it might be called the pressure relief line or something.

Looking back it took a lot of cranking and I had to hook up the battery charger a few times. Remember that if your battery is tired you won't get the starting RPMs to get the compression needed on a cold engine. Just leave the heater plugged in, it won't hurt the engine to start it with the heater plugged in. The one time I have started my engine without it being plugged in when it was cold it took some cranking and then it sounded like there was a gremlin hitting it with a ball peen hammer. When these engines are cold, they start ugly.

Bleed it again, crank it. Bleed it, crank it. Bleed it, crank it. When I say bleed it I mean bleed it the whole way through the system. When I say crank it, I mean several ten or twenty second cranks. Wire the hold on the solonoid to hot and disconnect the pull so that it is not pulling everytime you crank (Pull it first). I see from the picture that you have a different solonoid system than me. Can you see it pull?

You have to give that battery and the starter a pretty good workout. Once you get past all this, then consider your IP. I just don't think it is that if the engine was a running engine when you bought it. go back through everything you know about what you did to the IP and how to set all those things to proper working order. Set them, trust them, and crank it.

In the end, if nothing works, I'm inclined to believe its the IP. But, right now, I don't think it is the IP.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Mike, thanks for the clarification. My only question about that washer is that I did not take the fuel pin off of the diaphragm, so how could it have come off?

I realized that I did not torque the retaining nut to spec the first time around, so I reinstalled the injectors and torqued them to spec, after 3 of the 4 tested perfect. One had a poor spray pattern at idle speed, but fine at WOT and inbetween. Shouldn't have caused the motor to not run. In any case, the motor still did not run after the injectors were reinstalled. It would still run on starter fluid however.

I did check the oil, and there was no trace of diesel.

Wyo, I do remember that you had some problems getting your truck running and that it was a very similar problem to my own. If I remember correctly, you found a problem with your IP and sent it off to get serviced, correct?

As for cranking and bleeding, each of the three attempts to start this motor consisted of cranking and bleeding until my own battery would not turn the motor over. After that, we'd hook up another, larger battery to my own via jumper cables and crank until that one was dead, taking breaks to ensure the starter did not overheat. We'd then hook up the battery tender and let both batteries charge up until they were ready to go, and then repeat. Line pressure wouldn't increase to acceptable levels. Although the motor seemed like it was ready to run, it'd never actually kick over and run on its own.



Here's the number of my factory injectors, '9956':

This is where my IP gear lined up against my cam gear. Paint is from the Cummins remanufacture back in '96;

After you've found TDC by turning over the motor and using the TDC pin behind the injection pump, you must pin the IP at TDC to ensure that you can properly realign it once you reinstall. The Bosch VE pump has this timing pin and special washer on the DS lower side, near the timing cover. The procedure is to loosen the 10mm bolt, remove the special washer, then tighten the 10mm bolt, which pins the IP shaft against the body, to keep the shaft at TDC relative to the crank. Here is the special washer and the timing pin:

Location:

It's much easier to get to the lower nut of the IP if you remove the accessory drive:

Feels like a step backwards, but it'll be much better in the end:

Motor will stay pinned at TDC until I get my IP back from testing / servicing:

Here it is out of the truck:

On an unrelated note, I absolutely love my '89 Diesel Jetta. Not only is fuel efficiency great, but driving it gives me motivation to finish this diesel swap in my cruiser. The Jetta gladly hauls me to wherever I need to go while my cruiser is down:

Moonshine next to Ramon's SOA 40, Dozer. Dozer watches while I try to figure out why my motor won't work

One last picture for the day. The Dana 300 lines up pretty well to my FZJ80 rear axle:

Final point. I found this diesel injection shop called Chason Diesel in Garner, NC. The manager, Kevin, seems to know everything there is to know about Cummins injection systems. He had one of his guys test my injectors, for free, while we talked about my starting issues and what he thought I should do next. He had a rebuilt 4BT VE as well as a rebuilt 4BT Delphi sitting on the counter, as well as a bunch of IPs I did not recognize. I instantly knew I was in the right place

On Monday I'll get the diagnosis. Hopefully Kevin is able to find the problem!

Thanks again for all of your help guys!!

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Ramon was at his place for lunch and filmed this tragedy

 

[EOE_overland]

Ramon was at his place for lunch and filmed this tragedy

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsxg0fixQjg">YouTube Link</a>

I watched it in the airport today. So wrong! But extremely funny!

I thought VA was cool, but I could never get away with firing an RPG in my driveway

 

[lt1fire]

looks like you are getting to the bottom of it... hopefully its the pump and an easy fix

 

[GLTHFJ60]

looks like you are getting to the bottom of it... hopefully its the pump and an easy fix

I certainly hope so. Calibrating, then flow and pressure testing the IP costs $150. If it fails that test, a full tear-down and rebuild is $650, and only $300 of that is labor. Then comes the process of reinstalling at proper TDC without clocking the IP. Shouldn't be that bad since my VE has a woodruff key on the input shaft, but hey, you never know.

Thanks again for all the support guys. You are helping me survive this frustrating process.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

It's amazing looking at that underneath shot and remembering the rusty mess you started with.

Awesome job. Hey, it's only money, you can make more.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

It's amazing looking at that underneath shot and remembering the rusty mess you started with.

Awesome job. Hey, it's only money, you can make more.

Thank you Drew. Moonshine certainly has come a long way, due entirely to the awesome people of this community.

Working as I type this to make more $. It's a never-ending cycle!

 

[boots4]

That plastic washer on the fuel pin just slides over it to act as a stopper resting against the underneath side of the diaphragm, it doesn't get bolted to anything. It sounds like yours did not fit over the fuel pin though. This was in some rebuild or gasket kit that you got right? You probably still have one on there so I wouldn't worry about it. If it were missing it certainly wouldn't have kept it from starting.

Nice job on that flat belly.

Since you posted the pic of your timing mark I was curious about when I did my rebuild and dug up and old picture, mine too is on "F" so yours was at least timed correctly. The prices for the inspection and rebuild seem like good prices to me. I'm eager to hear what they find out.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

That plastic washer on the fuel pin just slides over it to act as a stopper resting against the underneath side of the diaphragm, it doesn't get bolted to anything. It sounds like yours did not fit over the fuel pin though. This was in some rebuild or gasket kit that you got right? You probably still have one on there so I wouldn't worry about it. If it were missing it certainly wouldn't have kept it from starting.

Nice job on that flat belly.

Since you posted the pic of your timing mark I was curious about when I did my rebuild and dug up and old picture, mine too is on "F" so yours was at least timed correctly. The prices for the inspection and rebuild seem like good prices to me. I'm eager to hear what they find out.

No, this washer wasn't in a rebuild kit, it was my only 'leftover' from the work I did. I'll double check the pin arrangement once I get my pump back to see if that is where it came from.

I'm also eager to hear what the shop says. Hopefully he has some bad ( good ) news for me!


I didn't post a pic of this before now because I was stressed about how large this hole is. This is one of two disadvantages to how I placed my drivetrain. The exhaust with the Chevy low mount manfold attempts to occupy the same space as the firewall, so guess which one won the battle. Today's focus was getting this hole welded up:

Got all the factory insulation crap chipped out:

Started fitting pieces in:

This is my first sheetmetal work, so don't make too much fun of me:

Sectioned the upper to make more clearance for the AC box. Still not sure if the AC box will fit or not:

Last piece that needs to be welded in. Had to stop due to rain, but I'm pretty happy with how it came out:

Tomorrow will bring more news. Keep your fingers crossed gents.

 

[EOE_overland]

I didn't post a pic of this before now because I was stressed about how large this hole is. This is one of two disadvantages to how I placed my drivetrain. The exhaust with the Chevy low mount manfold attempts to occupy the same space as the firewall, so guess which one the battle. Today's focus was getting this hole welded up:

Man, you just ruined a perfectly good place to heat up you lunch while on the trail! Or an awesome passenger footwarmer.

Fingers crossed...

 

[Wyoming]

Well, now that its out, let's hope its the pump! On another note: If you have to have the pump rebuilt, tell them how you want it tuned. When I sent mine off to be rebuilt, while it was in transit I realized that I might as well pay the extra to have it set up and tuned for what I want. I told the guy I wanted 175 horses and 400 ft/lb of torque. Now I have exatly what I want and I won't have to deal with upgrading in the future.

You're still goint to ba able to cook your lunch on the passenger floor because you're not going to be able to get in and wrap that down pipe in such a tight space. Don't use a rubber floor mat! Lol.

 

[davegonz]

Wow, you must have your engine pretty far back. I also have the exhaust routing on the passenger side like you, but have plenty of room. Are you running a mechanical fan?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Man, you just ruined a perfectly good place to heat up you lunch while on the trail! Or an awesome passenger footwarmer.

Fingers crossed...

Don't worry buddy, the passenger's feet will still be warmed Laura is always cold anyway, so this feature should help.

Well, now that its out, let's hope its the pump! On another note: If you have to have the pump rebuilt, tell them how you want it tuned. When I sent mine off to be rebuilt, while it was in transit I realized that I might as well pay the extra to have it set up and tuned for what I want. I told the guy I wanted 175 horses and 400 ft/lb of torque. Now I have exatly what I want and I won't have to deal with upgrading in the future.

You're still goint to ba able to cook your lunch on the passenger floor because you're not going to be able to get in and wrap that down pipe in such a tight space. Don't use a rubber floor mat! Lol.

Good idea with having them tune the IP! I've already got my 3800rpm spring in there, which I told them I wanted to keep, and I've got a stage 2 fuel pin sitting in my shop. Not sure how difficult it is to tune the P7100, but the VE is pretty easy until you get up past the 250hp mark. I want to play with the tune myself

I know, that floor board is going to get pretty hot. I'm going to get that second skin product and coat the inside + outside, then reflective heat protector on top of that ( on the outside ), then wrap the exhaust, then heat insulator and carpet on the inside. That will happen somewhere down the road.

Wow, you must have your engine pretty far back. I also have the exhaust routing on the passenger side like you, but have plenty of room. Are you running a mechanical fan?

No sir, electric Contour fans. As you can see in the above pics, the NV4500 shift tower comes up right through the stock hole, which was my end goal. As a result, the motor is super low and far back, which is good from a weight distribution perspective, but bad for the floor pan and firewall I've got a solid 12" of clearance between the timing cover and the radiator. Made it super easy to come up with radiator hoses and remove the belt driven accessories for getting the IP out.

I'm realizing that I don't have any overhead pics of the engine bay to show the engine's position. I'll try to get some in the next couple of days.

 

[davegonz]

Ah, I forgot about the NV4500.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Had some great news from Chason Diesel today. Turns out that when I put the top cover back on after replacing the governor spring that the governor spring had became unhooked from the throttle shaft. This meant that there was zero tension on the throttle arm in the main body of the IP, causing it to be in the shutdown position all the time. This produced the low line pressure we observed while bleeding the injectors and is the cause of my motor not cranking up on the 9th when we first cranked it. While frustrating, I'm glad the problem has been determined and corrected.

While at Chason Diesel, Kevin calibrated my pump to set idle and max idle speeds, then set the full power screw at 50-55CCs of flow, which he said was 10% over stock. He also tested the pump with the fuel screw turned all the way into the stock limiting collar and found that it would flow ~110CCs, so I've still got tons of room to move up without any issue.

I intend to have this installed tomorrow afternoon and have a running 4BTJ60 by tomorrow evening! Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[davegonz]

Congrats Johnny! Can't wait to hear it run (post a video please).

 

[S4Cruiser]

That's awesome news...can't wait to hear that sucker run!