Builds Moonshine - A Build Thread (7 Viewers)

[GLTHFJ60]

Brilliant!
Everything looks great Johnny!

Remember, I had the same problems with trying to start my 4bt too. Check all connections to make sure they are tight. I removed the hose coming from the tank where it attached to the lift pump and sucked the fuel up from the tank. Got my thumb over it and quickly attached it to the lift pump. You're still going to get air into the system. Now, You have to crack the bleeder valve that is after the lift pump. Mine is right above the fuel filters where the return line from the injectors dumps back into the system. Once that bleeder valve is open, pump the manual primer on the lift pump until you get diesel out of the bleeder valve (It took me 26 pumps). Close the bleeder valve. Open the bleeder valve on the injection pump. On my pump, it is also the pressure valve. Pump the hand primer again until you get diesel out of the bleeder valve. Close the valve. Crank the engine. Make sure the solonoid is pulling and holding. If you have to crank the engine several times, it might be a good idea to unhook the pull once you have the hold and just leave the hold on. Otherwise you can get that solonoid pretty warm. Once the engine catches, start bleeding the injector lines.

Thank you sir!

Does the VE pump have a bleeder port? You only cracked the injection lines after the motor was running?

 

[Wyoming]

You only cracked the injection lines after the motor was running?

You know, we did it both ways. The very first time I got it running, we cracked the injector lines while cranking it. Got it running then it died. Later, when I got it running for good, I bled the two valves and started it before bleeding the injector lines.

 

[boots4]

Jonny,

When you get a chance maybe you could describe a little more of what you did and why you think it's the pump? Trying to see what you've troubleshot already.

More questions/thoughts:

Would it stumble on you but just not catch?

What was the squirting out of the injector lines like?

The clicking should indicate that the solenoid is working but if it's still not starting due to fuel, there could be an issue with it.

Did you play with the idle screw setting when you put in the governor spring in? If it wasn't returned to its setting the engine won't stay running.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Jonny,

1. When you get a chance maybe you could describe a little more of what you did and why you think it's the pump? Trying to see what you've troubleshot already.

More questions/thoughts:

2. Would it stumble on you but just not catch?

3. What was the squirting out of the injector lines like?

4. The clicking should indicate that the solenoid is working but if it's still not starting due to fuel, there could be an issue with it.

5. Did you play with the idle screw setting when you put in the governor spring in? If it wasn't returned to its setting the engine won't stay running.

I'm not explaining things correctly, I apologize. I'm still a bit foggy from this weekend.

1. Suspect lift pump due to the priming handle never getting stiff as I thought it should when priming. Also, it's an inexpensive part to replace and I understand it should be replaced as preventative maintenance.

2. Correct, it would stumble, but it would not catch. I've got some videos I need to upload to youtube so I can let you listen.

3. Inconsistent. We would prime the lift pump, crack bleeder screw, then prime again. After that, we'd crank and crack one injector at a time. It would be a weak squirt at first, then it'd get stronger, at which point we'd close the injector line. We'd go through the whole set and then go back again and we'd find the same sequence of events. Suspected loss of prime due to faulty lift pump.

4. Also true. If I pull the solenoid and remove the plunger, would I be able to reassemble the solenoid and have it be functional again? I'd like to retain the ability to turn this off with the key. In addition, is there an issue where the solenoid could be partially open? Otherwise, I wouldn't think that any fuel would be getting to the injection lines if it's an on / off type of thing

5. I did remove the idle screw when I did the spring, but I put it back to the stock position ( referenced by pictures ). I didn't think that this was the problem due to the motor's running condition not being altered by manipulation of the throttle arm ( when running on starter fluid ).

 

[boots4]

Now this is going to be taken the wrong way but just over look that. My priming lever never really gets real stiff either. Sometimes the drive arm is on the wrong part of the cam so it won't prime at all. I would probably do the same with replacing the lift pump, not real expensive and easy to pop off (although your stater is on the side so maybe it's not open).

It sounds like there is air getting into the system if bleeding injectors get weak again. Like Wyoming suggested any connection point in the fuel lines could be causing air to slip by so checking those bolts and line is an easy task. The lift pump can also be putting air into the lines. If the diaphragm is cracked I'd also check your oil to make sure no diesel is slipping in there.

Pulling the plunger will essentially disable the solenoid so it won't shut off with the key, you'd have to use the lever on the side of the IP. This suggestion is only to eliminate the solenoid as a component to a no start problem. You would need to get a new solenoid if it is a problem or reinstall the plunger to make it operational if it isn't the problem. Yes, the plunger may not be traveling the whole way causing fuel starvation in its open state. This could be something to look into if the new lift pump doesn't solve your issue.

The ultimate doom and gloom would be something wrong with internals in the IP. I hope it's not that.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

The ultimate doom and gloom would be something wrong with internals in the IP. I hope it's not that.

You and me both brother.

Thanks for the ideas. I am going to replace the fuel filter while I'm at it. I noticed a little bit of crud on the old seal and while I wiped it off, it wasn't totally clean. I didn't think it would be an issue, but it looks like it may be. Cheap enough to replace.

Did you have to do any modifications to your fuel tank / pickup to work with diesel? I just replaced the rubber lines with diesel rated lines.

 

[Tapage]

impressive Job Johnny .. congrats ! coz this " minor " fuel issue will be solved and swap will remains as a weekend victory ..

 

[boots4]

Did you have to do any modifications to your fuel tank / pickup to work with diesel? I just replaced the rubber lines with diesel rated lines.

Nope, I didn't change anything inside the tank, just plugged ports not used, changed to diesel line like you, and removed the filler neck constraint thing so the diesel nozzle would fit. Even with the filtration I am running I can overfuel my turbo so the line size and micron count of my filtration is not restricting the modest power I'm currently making.

Do you have any filtration before the lift pump? Might put at least a mesh screen to catch the big stuff. Maybe there was some crud in the tank.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

impressive Job Johnny .. congrats ! coz this " minor " fuel issue will be solved and swap will remains as a weekend victory ..

Thank you sir! Hopefully we can get this fuel thing sorted in a reasonable amount of time so I can drive this expensive machine

Nope, I didn't change anything inside the tank, just plugged ports not used, changed to diesel line like you, and removed the filler neck constraint thing so the diesel nozzle would fit. Even with the filtration I am running I can overfuel my turbo so the line size and micron count of my filtration is not restricting the modest power I'm currently making.

Do you have any filtration before the lift pump? Might put at least a mesh screen to catch the big stuff. Maybe there was some crud in the tank.

Ok, sweet. That's what I thought I had read in your build.

I do not have any filtration in front of my lift pump. Would diesel cause sediment to come out more than gasoline? I could find a little clear in-line filter so I could at least see the fuel coming in doesn't have bubbles.

Picked up a new primary fuel filter ( NAPA 3472 ) and lift pump ( Airtex 1407 ) today.

 

[boots4]

Would diesel cause sediment to come out more than gasoline? I could find a little clear in-line filter so I could at least see the fuel coming in doesn't have bubbles.

Normally no but with the swap, bumping/banging things something could have gotten dislodged. A clear little filter would be good for a visual especially if you're planning on running alternative fuel.

 

[EOE_overland]

Sorry for the PM dude, was only watching the club thread and didnt see these guys hittin you with all the same ideas .
Anxious to see the culprit!

 

[Wyoming]

Boots is right, you will not feel the primer stiffen up. The only way you will know if it is drawing fuel and pushing up the line is when you see diesel coming out of the bleeder valve.

 

[EOE_overland]

Status update??!!
You working on it tonight or later?

 

[The Phoenician]

Nothing technical to add, just that you have some really great friends and congrats.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Normally no but with the swap, bumping/banging things something could have gotten dislodged. A clear little filter would be good for a visual especially if you're planning on running alternative fuel.

I'll pick one up for my tests tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions Mike!

Boots is right, you will not feel the primer stiffen up. The only way you will know if it is drawing fuel and pushing up the line is when you see diesel coming out of the bleeder valve.

I did that, so I am starting to feel confident that the lift pump is working as expected.

Status update??!!
You working on it tonight or later?

Working on it tonight.

Nothing technical to add, just that you have some really great friends and congrats.

Yes sir, thank you! That's the reason why the 'mud community is so great! I love ONSC

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Went through the following steps last night:
- Checked voltage at IP solenoid and found that it was only receiving ~10.6 volts. Wired it directly to battery, confirmed ~12.4 volts, still no start after bleeding, however, we are now seeing some smoke come out of the tail pipe.
- Checked diaphragm and fuel pin. Found nothing out of wack. Found this grease on the fuel pin, which appears to be where the reference pin is currently riding. Nothing else looks out of place to me, let me know if there is something I'm missing here. Bled fuel system and still no start.
- Replaced fuel filter ( full of diesel ) and replaced copper washers at banjo bolts on filter head. Bled by priming lift pump till solid fuel came out of bleeder screw. Closed solenoid and pumped another 20 times. No affect on running condition.
- Took off IP brace to get to solenoid. Gutted injection pump solenoid. Pics are below for those that have not seen this before. When I pulled the solenoid out, the pin and spring fell down into the pump ( did not stay in solenoid ). Not sure if that is expected. Gutting solenoid had no affect on running condition of motor. Observed fuel level in solenoid hole fluctuating ( level raising and lowering in bore ) by itself. Truck not moving, just the fuel level. Video below to illustrate. I reassembled the solenoid and re-installed it.
- Finally, after re-bleeding the system, I ran the motor on starter fluid for about 20 seconds, trying to bleed the fuel system as much as possible. Manipulating the throttle had no affect on motor while running on starter fluid. Motor dies immediately after starter fluid is stopped.

I've got a new lift pump that I'm going to try after I pull my injectors and have them tested. If testing / cleaning the injectors does not fix the problem, I'll try the new lift pump. If that does not help, then the IP head is coming off to double check my work with the governor spring install.


Should there be a little nipple on the bottom of the solenoid or should it be flat?
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117738

EDIT: HD version of the video

 

[Wyoming]

Okay, at this point, the thing I'm wondering is: Is it timed properly? You might want to go through your timing procedure again. In the p-pump there is a timing pin. Is there one on the VE? Sounds and looks like you're getting fuel. I can't speak to the functionality of the VE. But, if you are getting fuel, it would lead me to believe you may be out of time. If you are sure your timing is right, then start bleeding the injector lines while you are cranking the engine. Do you have a heavy-duty battery? Remember to let the starter cool every few cranks and don't crank it for more than 10 seconds at a time.

You said you were getting smoke. That was the first sign it was going to start for me.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Okay, at this point, the thing I'm wondering is: Is it timed properly? You might want to go through your timing procedure again. In the p-pump there is a timing pin. Is there one on the VE? Sounds and looks like you're getting fuel. I can't speak to the functionality of the VE. But, if you are getting fuel, it would lead me to believe you may be out of time. If you are sure your timing is right, then start bleeding the injector lines while you are cranking the engine. Do you have a heavy-duty battery? Remember to let the starter cool every few cranks and don't crank it for more than 10 seconds at a time.

You said you were getting smoke. That was the first sign it was going to start for me.

I'm starting to think timing as well, but I don't know how to adjust this. I thought that timing was solely a function of the timing pump's rotation on the timing gear housing, and / or the tooth engagement of the IP gear on the intermediary gear, no? Neither of those settings were adjusted.

 

[boots4]

Sorry to ask a dumb question but after you gutted the solenoid you did install it with the o-ring and then try to start it right?

From what I could see in that video is that is seems like air bubbles were coming out and then the fuel level would go down. Starting to wonder if there is some place that air is getting into the system which is not allowing the injectors to pop. Air will compress in the injector lines and essentially absorbs the pressure the IP is trying to make and whatever pressure there is cannot overcome the pop off pressure needed on the injectors.

Again is the engine trying to catch but just cannot or is it not stumbling at all?

Have you checked your oil to see if any diesel is getting mixed in? (pump seal or lift pump leaking in and maybe air coming in)

I would agree with going to injectors next and getting those tested but air may be getting in somewhere.

This will get figured out and it will probably make some kind of sense when the culprit is found.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

1. Sorry to ask a dumb question but after you gutted the solenoid you did install it with the o-ring and then try to start it right?

2. From what I could see in that video is that is seems like air bubbles were coming out and then the fuel level would go down. Starting to wonder if there is some place that air is getting into the system which is not allowing the injectors to pop. Air will compress in the injector lines and essentially absorbs the pressure the IP is trying to make and whatever pressure there is cannot overcome the pop off pressure needed on the injectors.

3. Again is the engine trying to catch but just cannot or is it not stumbling at all?

4. Have you checked your oil to see if any diesel is getting mixed in? (pump seal or lift pump leaking in and maybe air coming in)

I would agree with going to injectors next and getting those tested but air may be getting in somewhere.

This will get figured out and it will probably make some kind of sense when the culprit is found.

1. Yes sir. O-ring was left on the solenoid after it was gutted.

2. It's difficult to tell for sure, but I didn't see any air bubbles coming out of that line, just that the level was fluctuating. I have no idea what that means. It is absolutely possible that air is getting in somewhere.

3. Yes, exactly. It sounds like it's trying to catch, but it won't run on its own.

4. No, I have not checked the oil. That is on the list of things to check tonight.

It's frustrating troubleshooting a problem like this, but I agree, the problem will be revealed eventually.

Thanks again for your help guys! This wouldn't be happening without you.