Let's end the control arm bushing debate (2 Viewers)

[Maozebong]

ok while most of the people in this thread speak from the experience of owning, i speak from a decade of experience as a mechanic, 8 of which at a seattle japanese only shop. i can guarantee you, if it went to a dealer for part of its life, it got the bushings done. older dealer techs can tell you, they got replaced quite often. older dealer techs probably aren’t in here much, but thankfully we have car forum mouth breathers to chime in on the job they have done twice in the last 5 years.

i’ve changed more of these bushings in a year than many will in a lifetime. i DO use OEM on customer cars because i know they last longer in a design that eats bushings.

i never said they aren’t the best available. i said there’s a better solution than replacing bushings with the same part that fails every 5 years. a good design shouldn’t be dependent on the rubber type to last.
l

 

[baldilocks]

I’m always looking out for a better ‘all around’ solution.

 

[Maozebong]

Keep reading.

read what? you haven’t contributed to the thread with anything other than sarcasm. we already have a nukegoat, we don’t need a great value version.

 

[baldilocks]

read what? you haven’t contributed to the thread with anything other than sarcasm. we already have a nukegoat, we don’t need a great value version.

Life is full of compromises.... you say three link to stop the bushing replacements. Admittedly, my last set of oem bushings were worse for wear after two years of Rubicon but I didn’t know it until I removed the stock arms to installed new Delta VS arms.

Sometimes I trailer my 80 but most of the time I drive it to the trail and now that I live in WA the drive to Rubicon is a long one and the oem bushings are like butter going down the highway and the trail too.

I agree that a three link is a great solution for a dedicated trail rig. We use ours for weeks long road trips that include wheeling in other states. I have also found myself bound up in boulders up to my belt line and stuck in snow over the hood. The 80 is so versatile because engineers, backed by decades, of experience designed it to be so.

Comparing bushing replacement every three years to converting to three link and then dealing with the downfalls that come with that is like asking myself if I’d rather shoot myself in the foot or shove a stick in my eye. Pick your poison and keep on keeping on.

 

[ccslider]

Go OEM. If you can't afford them. Buy them from partsoqu.

 

[nukegoat]

not sure why nobody mentioned it, but no bushings will ever last in an 80 series. they went 20 years without changing because the people who first bought these didn’t wheel them, left sway bars connected and didn’t install lift kits. for most people who bought 80s, this was a luxury SUV and not a trail rig.

point blank, if you’ve lifted your truck, you’re going to wear bushings prematurely. any time you articulate the suspension, you’re putting immense torsional pressure on the bushings that are trying to twist the axle housing. radius arms are meant for road cars. spending 10x more on OEM bushings doesn’t change this and our forum “gurus” like to act like it won’t happen if you do. (hint: just because they buy more overland junk and have brand relationships doesn’t make them an expert)

stop wasting time arguing over which rubber is rubber. cut the radius arms off and go 3 link. you won’t need a press to change the bushing, bushings won’t tear due to binding, set the caster angle to anything you want and on top of that, you correct the vehicle roll center that gets thrown way out of wack when lifted. lifted 80s handle like s*** until you address the elephant in the room.

For what it's worth your argument applies to the rear axle too

 

[nukegoat]

Comparing bushing replacement every three years to converting to three link and then dealing with the downfalls that come with that is like asking myself if I’d rather shoot myself in the foot or shove a stick in my eye. Pick your poison and keep on keeping on.

Which one is which

 

[baldilocks]

Which one is which

I’m not surprised you are he who asks. Repetitious oem bushing replacement = Shooting myself in the foot. It’s inconvenient but I can easily recover and continue to enjoy a quiet, buttery ride.

 

[Maozebong]

I’m not surprised you are he who asks. Repetitious oem bushing replacement = Shooting myself in the foot. It’s inconvenient but I can easily recover and continue to enjoy a quiet, buttery ride.

ok, good analogy: you’d have to keep shooting yourself in the foot every 3-5 years. i’d rather poke my eye out, i’d perform a lot better on a trail and get farther in life with two good legs

been daily driving a linked 80 for close to 3 years now, +10k miles a year. the johnny joints are rock solid, it has 6* of caster, significantly less bump steer, better roll center, more ground clearance, and i can replace cartridge joints in a parking lot with hand tools if need be.

we can make another thread if we want to make this a geometry circlejerk, but i’d suggest playing around on a 3/4 link calculator if you need help understanding what happens when you change frame height in suspension geometry and nothing else.

 

[nukegoat]

I’m not surprised you are he who asks. Repetitious oem bushing replacement = Shooting myself in the foot. It’s inconvenient but I can easily recover and continue to enjoy a quiet, buttery ride.

Why the hate? Just tryin to understand

 

[Box Rocket]

lifted 80s handle like s*** until you address the elephant in the room.

Sounds like you have been in a lifted 80 that setup to handle well. I don't have anything against 3-linking, but it's not the end-all-be-all answer. A lifted 80 can definitely handle extremely well without having to do a 3-link.

Everyone know bushings wear out, whether they are rubber or poly or bubblegum. They are wear items, just like brake parts. They are cheap and not that difficult to replace. Whether it's heims or johnny joints on a 3-link, those wear out as well. Maybe not as quickly as some bushings but they still wear out.

 

[baldilocks]

ok, good analogy: you’d have to keep shooting yourself in the foot every 3-5 years. i’d rather poke my eye out, i’d perform a lot better on a trail and get farther in life with two good legs

been daily driving a linked 80 for close to 3 years now, +10k miles a year. the johnny joints are rock solid, it has 6* of caster, significantly less bump steer, better roll center, more ground clearance, and i can replace cartridge joints in a parking lot with hand tools if need be.

we can make another thread if we want to make this a geometry circlejerk, but i’d suggest playing around on a 3/4 link calculator if you need help understanding what happens when you change frame height in suspension geometry and nothing else.

We agree on JJ’s. I use them on my rear link frame end.

 

[baldilocks]

Why the hate? Just tryin to understand

Hate? Nothing but love here ...

 

[fjbj40]

Just read up on Johnny joints. I know what Heim joints are.
Personally I would not use them on a daily driver in the rust belt areas. They either won’t last or will require weekly greasing to not corrode.
Maybe fine for desert running or rock climbing in the non rust belt area or not a dd.
But if you have never lived in the rust belt let alone worked on a vehicle that lived/lives in the rust belt, they would not be a good choice. Bushings win here!

 

[baldilocks]

Just read up on Johnny joints. I know what Heim joints are.
Personally I would not use them on a daily driver in the rust belt areas. They either won’t last or will require weekly greasing to not corrode.
Maybe fine for desert running or rock climbing in the non rust belt area or not a dd.
But if you have never lived in the rust belt let alone worked on a vehicle that lived/lives in the rust belt, they would not be a good choice. Bushings win here!

Or did rust win???

 

[Maozebong]

Sounds like you have been in a lifted 80 that setup to handle well. I don't have anything against 3-linking, but it's not the end-all-be-all answer. A lifted 80 can definitely handle extremely well without having to do a 3-link.

Everyone know bushings wear out, whether they are rubber or poly or bubblegum. They are wear items, just like brake parts. They are cheap and not that difficult to replace. Whether it's heims or johnny joints on a 3-link, those wear out as well. Maybe not as quickly as some bushings but they still wear out.

that’s why i kept saying that if it was such a good design it wouldn’t be so sensitive to the type of rubber used. in my opinion, until you set these up with a bushing that can freely pivot unlike cast rubber bushings, youll be throwing money away that could pay for a pile of ruffstuff brackets, johnny joints, and tubing.

i find that even with aftermarket radius arms you can only get so good of a ride quality. you can ‘hide’ the bad geometry with high end shocks, but it doesn’t fix it.

having your control arms at such a harsh angle. just like steering linkage, having arms that are level at ride height is crucial to improving the ride and reducing bump steer.

Maybe fine for desert running or rock climbing in the non rust belt area or not a dd.
But if you have never lived in the rust belt let alone worked on a vehicle that lived/lives in the rust belt, they would not be a good choice.

as someone who daily drives these, they are zinc plated and seem to do just fine with rust, and do not transfer vibration as bad as heims do. almost 3 years on them and no free play. i grease them when i do the driveshafts and that’s it. rustproofing isn’t rocket surgery and shouldn’t be the reason to avoid a better design.

 

[fjbj40]

that’s why i kept saying that if it was such a good design it wouldn’t be so sensitive to the type of rubber used. in my opinion, until you set these up with a bushing that can freely pivot unlike cast rubber bushings, youll be throwing money away that could pay for a pile of ruffstuff brackets, johnny joints, and tubing.

i find that even with aftermarket radius arms you can only get so good of a ride quality. you can ‘hide’ the bad geometry with high end shocks, but it doesn’t fix it.

having your control arms at such a harsh angle. just like steering linkage, having arms that are level at ride height is crucial to improving the ride and reducing bump steer.



as someone who daily drives these, they are zinc plated and seem to do just fine with rust, and do not transfer vibration as bad as heims do. almost 3 years on them and no free play. i grease them when i do the driveshafts and that’s it. rustproofing isn’t rocket surgery and shouldn’t be the reason to avoid a better design.

As I said if you live in the rust belt, WA is not, you have no idea what salt, gravel, urea and a constant swing in below freezing to just above freezing and bombardment of moisture does to zinc coated parts. They are rusty in a year, fuzzy rusty in two years. This is 7-8 months of the year in some areas.

I’m sure it’s a great design in improving the suspension for hard core off roaring. I have modified enough cars, trucks and motorcycles for many many years. I have come to learn, some OEM designs are better and less maint than mods. I do not hard core off-road. I will stick with the bushings.

 

[jpoole]

@Maozebong

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't have the time/$ or probably the use case (I don't really wheel) to consider moving to a 3 link but I'd love to see a few photos of your setup, without having to go digging on mud for them .

 

[tacocat]

i’ve changed more of these bushings in a year than many will in a lifetime. i DO use OEM on customer cars because i know they last longer in a design that eats bushings.

Maoze,

I don't believe anyone pointed out the superiority of the 80's radius arms over other suspension options. The old timing people on this forum were stating that OEM bushings are, for the most part, better than aftermarket. I appears you'd agree with this sentiment.

The 80 has its share of shortcomings like any other vehicle. The doors are too thin for good speakers, the transmission could use more gears, it's really wide, 1990's paint sucks, the list goes on. My You Tube Mechanic Certification indicates that OEM bushings, are at this point, the most economical solution for this problem.

In regards to a 3-link, it's not a simple of as buying some brackets and bolting them up. There's a great deal of fabrication involved, and that's before adding the additional cost of really expensive long travel coilovers. If you screw the geometry up, the result could be as the lawyers put it serious injury, or even death.

I haven't taken a serious look into Johnny Joints since Currie Enterprises debuted them on their black War Bonnet TJ in 1998 or so. They've been developing them almost as long as the FZJ80 is old When they first debuted, they had their issues with premature wear.

Rust: in the midwest and east coast, rental cars and stainless plated big rigs rust. The streets look like Bonneville Salt Flats when they are dry in the winter. There is no rustproofing there, it's constant fight. If House Stark relocated to the midwest, they'd change their moto to "Rust is Coming"

I'd love to see pics of your suspension. It sounds cool.

 

[Maozebong]

As I said if you live in the rust belt, WA is not, you have no idea what salt, gravel, urea and a constant swing in below freezing to just above freezing and bombardment of moisture does to zinc coated parts. They are rusty in a year, fuzzy rusty in two years. This is 7-8 months of the year in some areas.

I’m sure it’s a great design in improving the suspension for hard core off roaring. I have modified enough cars, trucks and motorcycles for many many years. I have come to learn, some OEM designs are better and less maint than mods. I do not hard core off-road. I will stick with the bushings.

i was born and spent a 2 years of my career in ohio and got my degree in automotive sciences in dayton ohio. i worked maintenance for a commercial landscaping company that plowed snow in the winter. i once replaced a fuel pump assembly because the sending unit rusted out.

again, mechanic, been doing it for a while, might know what i’m talking about?

you must have a stock height rig and 33s. replacing stock parts on a stock truck is an economical solution for those who aren’t hitting any obstacles. some people here are lifted +3 inches and on 37s or bigger. those are the people who need a real solution and geometry corrections and not the peanut gallery chanting “oem bushings” over and over by people with stock rigs.

@Maozebong

I'd love to see a few photos of your setup, without having to go digging on mud for them .

@faded_80 on the ‘gram. i put a gopro video up of the links somewhat recently.

In regards to a 3-link, it's not a simple of as buying some brackets and bolting them up. There's a great deal of fabrication involved, and that's before adding the additional cost of really expensive long travel coilovers. If you screw the geometry up, the result could be as the lawyers put it serious injury, or even death.

I haven't taken a serious look into Johnny Joints since Currie Enterprises debuted on their black War Bonnet TJ in 1998 or so. They've been developing them almost as long as the FZJ80. When they first debuted, they had their issues with premature wear.

i still have the stock steering, and i’m using the stock spring/coil setup instead of coilovers. works fine. total cost was a hair under 900$ for materials/parts to do the whole job myself.

haven’t had any issues with the JJs yet. i’d hope with 20 years of production they would make changes. there are also beefier options out there with similar poly lining. if i change my mind i don’t need a press to put a different bushing in.