klinetime574's 2FE Build - DNF

[Slow Left]

I'll wait for a measurement.

And it sounds like anyone who has built a 2FE has gone OEM. If it's the same or damn close... I guess I'll be the first to know if the Fel-Pro will work

Don't get me wrong, Klinetime, I fully respect your willingness to take calculated risks and it shows in how you approach your wrenching and the results it yields that you've got the attention to detail and focus on the process.

Just saying that make sure, in this case, that it is calculated (in other words, that you have convinced yourself that the risk is small and controllable...and the payoff is sufficiently large (payoff could be also mean things like cost or time savings, for instance)....in other words, the science (the cause and effect) or logic works out..."if this is like this and that is like that...and I do this...then the result with be this..."

...but then again, this rant could just be me reminding myself (at your expense) to dial it back...because I often find myself preaching caution to others where I have ignored my own advice...

 

[gregnash]

Don't get me wrong, Klinetime, I fully respect your willingness to take calculated risks and it shows in how you approach your wrenching and the results it yields that you've got the attention to detail and focus on the process.

Just saying that make sure, in this case, that it is calculated (in other words, that you have convinced yourself that the risk is small and controllable...and the payoff is sufficiently large (payoff could be also mean things like cost or time savings, for instance)....in other words, the science (the cause and effect) or logic works out..."if this is like this and that is like that...and I do this...then the result with be this..."

...but then again, this rant could just be me reminding myself (at your expense) to dial it back...because I often find myself preaching caution to others where I have ignored my own advice...

Welcome to the world of an analyst. This is what my daily life consists of whether I want it to or not.. LOL
When you start throwing in stuff like ROI and CBA and that has more bearing on what you are doing than anything else that is when you know that you have truly become an analyst (or sick in the head, I like that latter).

K, might be worthwhile to shoot Georg or Onur or one of the guys that has completed the 2FE build a message to query about the Fel-Pro vs OEM gasket. Know that you purchased it already and everything but like SL said, would suck for you to get everything together, have the truck nice and running and have the smallest mill depth change impact how well the engine runs or even worse result in something like a fracked-bed or the like.

 

[Slow Left]

Welcome to the world of an analyst. This is what my daily life consists of whether I want it to or not.. LOL
When you start throwing in stuff like ROI and CBA and that has more bearing on what you are doing than anything else that is when you know that you have truly become an analyst (or sick in the head, I like that latter).

K, might be worthwhile to shoot Georg or Onur or one of the guys that has completed the 2FE build a message to query about the Fel-Pro vs OEM gasket. Know that you purchased it already and everything but like SL said, would suck for you to get everything together, have the truck nice and running and have the smallest mill depth change impact how well the engine runs or even worse result in something like a fracked-bed or the like.

Yeah, it could very well be that the Fel-Pro head gasket is the same gasket that Toyota sells.

Or maybe shoot FJ40Jim a PM and ask him...he'll be able to give you an earful about the 'cause and effect.

 

[klinetime574]

Maybe @FJ40Jim can just post here for the world to see

I do respect all the input here. But if the Fel-Pro gasket is the same in thickness, etc. I see no reason not to use it.

TBH I don't even know what sort of head gasket is on my 2F. It was in a rebuild engine gasket set that was sold by SOR. No issues with that. The oil pan gasket they sent on the other hand... Terrible. That was replaced with OEM.

 

[Slow Left]

Welcome to the world of an analyst. This is what my daily life consists of whether I want it to or not.. LOL
When you start throwing in stuff like ROI and CBA and that has more bearing on what you are doing than anything else that is when you know that you have truly become an analyst (or sick in the head, I like that latter).

Interesting...not to go off on a tangent, but...to go off on a tangent, I would make the distinction between managing risk versus managing uncertainty.

I understand that Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA) manages risk, where risk is a quantifiable metric (the probability of an outcome occurring X the impact of that outcome).

Uncertainty is, by definition, is not quantifiable and it's implications are, well...uncertain...

Consider mountain climbing as a model for understanding decision making in the face of uncertainty...where the risk is 100% (gravity is always there and falling will kill you) and the uncertainty arises from having to make correct decisions in a series of logical steps in the process, where the 'best' path to the summit is unknown. What is known is one's own capability (skill) in implementing the 'next' step in the process and the capabilities of the tools you employ to take that next step.

The best example I have come across that paints a picture of this type of decision making is laid out in "Beyond the Mountain" by Steve House...a mountain climber...who writes just like he climbs...in a very procedural manner, but shares his decision making process:

“I climb up on the 1st ice flow, each step as a decision, the summation of time tempered by judgment. I feel vastly experienced, invincible. Each moment requires precise judgment. The consequence of a single erroneous decision is beyond contemplation. I employ every instinct, every sense. To that end I have ears to hear the staccato crunch of a well-placed crampon strike. Eyes to see the warm glow of solid ice. Skin to feel whether the temperature may be creeping above 32°, or plunging below 0 into the inhumane zone in which only the mountain itself can exist.”

 

[gregnash]

You are very right. However the risk analysis also takes into account variables of risk to assume quantifiable items.
For instance, there is a non-quantifiable risk that the Fel-Pro gasket is not the same size as the OEM. You then have to take into account the CBA of either returning the gasket or eating the cost and purchasing a second gasket (OEM) that is known to be good. The variable in there is that should you go with the determinable risk of using the aftermarket you then bump up against a whole new set of risks where you try to quantify the outcome SHOULD it fail. Then the risk extrapolates from there as you look at possible outcomes from things happening and the associated costs. To me this is the fun part as you learn a lot about the system that you are working in and what the outcomes are of the things that happen.

I cannot tell you how many times I have been listening in on a conversation on how one of our systems work (public safety) and talking with the business user and their data entry procedures only to come up with a random entry procedure that would result in an error. They look at me like I have lobsters coming out of my ears with a response of "..but it doesn't work that way?!" Well logically, I was able to run through your process based on the step and functionality you gave me and come to this alternate conclusion/outcome. So logically the system SHOULD work that way. We then have to plan for that outcome and how to adequately adjust for that risk. Sometimes the probability of that outcome happening is so low that it is negligible and thus not a concern. However sometimes it is not and CAN result in huge losses, either in time or money.

I told you I had a sick mind...

 

[Slow Left]

You are very right. However the risk analysis also takes into account variables of risk to assume quantifiable items.
For instance, there is a non-quantifiable risk that the Fel-Pro gasket is not the same size as the OEM. You then have to take into account the CBA of either returning the gasket or eating the cost and purchasing a second gasket (OEM) that is known to be good. The variable in there is that should you go with the determinable risk of using the aftermarket you then bump up against a whole new set of risks where you try to quantify the outcome SHOULD it fail. Then the risk extrapolates from there as you look at possible outcomes from things happening and the associated costs. To me this is the fun part as you learn a lot about the system that you are working in and what the outcomes are of the things that happen.

I cannot tell you how many times I have been listening in on a conversation on how one of our systems work (public safety) and talking with the business user and their data entry procedures only to come up with a random entry procedure that would result in an error. They look at me like I have lobsters coming out of my ears with a response of "..but it doesn't work that way?!" Well logically, I was able to run through your process based on the step and functionality you gave me and come to this alternate conclusion/outcome. So logically the system SHOULD work that way. We then have to plan for that outcome and how to adequately adjust for that risk. Sometimes the probability of that outcome happening is so low that it is negligible and thus not a concern. However sometimes it is not and CAN result in huge losses, either in time or money.

I told you I had a sick mind...

Huh. I think I understand. Sounds kinda like a Monte Carlo, where each decision (step) has a quantifiable risk associated with it. So then the sum of all the errors (statistical errors) for a given sequence of decisions would be the uncertainty of that 'path'.

So then apply that logic to the above mountain climbing model where the risk associated with each decision/step always equals 100%.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

the head gasket thing is a myth...more important to make certain that all the right holes are in all the right places, and more important than that, is just to make certain the mating surfaces are prepped correctly. flame on.

 

[cruisermatt]

A new Toyota OEM head gasket (or at least mine) measures to 2mm.

 

[klinetime574]

A new Toyota OEM head gasket (or at least mine) measures to 2mm.

Hmm. Well, when rebuilding an engine, there will be minor material removed from the head and block. A slightly thicker gasket could account for the difference.

A thinner gasket would bump compression ratio, although putting the 3FE head on the 2F block already raises the compression ratio. This Fel-Pro gasket is a "PermaTorque" it will compress slightly and not need re-torquing. So would a <1mm difference in the head gasket effect the running of the engine?

I think it will be okay to use this Fel-Pro gasket.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

I think you're ok, the crushed height may be the same, but yes, a 1mm taller compressed gasket would change the CR a bit. I would still retorque after 100 and 500-750 and again at 1500ish> just check for the click at set torque, not back off and reset. a couple of mine on the 2F needed a quarter or so...I am running an old MAF engine OH gasket, tho, FFD...just wouldn't sit well w/me to not check...

 

[klinetime574]

Thanks @LAMBCRUSHER

When I retorqued my 2F I just checked. Did not loosen and retighten. I'll do the same on this.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

I gotta say, having just used the old pig with cammed 2F to pull the minitruck up the neighbors driveway, that there does indeed seem to be a considerable amount of low end torque more than the 3FE. I may have to rethink a 3FE swap in favor of the 2FE. I like the higher revving of the square 3F, but the long stroke torque of the 2F can't be contested. the fj62 3FE couldn't get halfway up the drive with that truck in tow, the 2F pig just walked up at next to no throttle...combined with the efi, it should be a great mule

 

[Slow Left]

Kline, you might have already seen this thread, but there is a pretty good conversation going on here relevant to your 2FE build:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/2fe-piston-to-cylinder-head-clearance.823857/

Cheers!

 

[mongoose2231]

Kline, I have a toyota factory head gasket kit. Unopened and complete. I don't know if it works for the fe build but I have it available. Some guy was supposed to buy but backed off. It's a 2f kit to clear that up

 

[Yodaone88]

Currently doing the same thing on my 1983 FJ60!

 

[klinetime574]

I never went through with this project. I was finishing college and changed directions. Sold the parts and moved on. Now I’m running Holley Sniper setup.

 

[Jose Jimenez]

Currently doing the same thing on my 1983 FJ60!

I am doing a project kinda like this one.