Builds Joel's multipurpose 40 on 41s (3 Viewers)

[frijolee]

Intake tract:

I have a long history with K&N and like them a lot. That said, I'm not familiar with their dry filter lineup (if they even offer such a thing). I've just about settled on the AEM Dry Flow Brute Force line of filters (w/ prefilter bag)

Next question becomes single vs. twin filters. A single 4" is a good bit cheaper and easier to package but I keep seeing off-roadie guys running twins.

Mine would end up a bit stubbier, maybe more like this:

The biggest challenge of the twin is packaging the MAF. I've been planning to run a card style LS7 MAF, but this would put it right in the merge (turbulence). So the question becomes: twin filters yeah/or neah? If twin's think I can do dual 3" to a 4" merge? What are some pros/cons of speed density tuning...

 

[frijolee]

Planning on picking up most of the full hydro steering bits I still need. I've been using these two diagrams as my go-to guides for the setup.

http://www.howeperformance.com/pdfs/rockcrawler hose diag.pdf
http://howeperformance.com/pdfs/rockracerreliefdiag.pdf

I'm basically planning on most of the components sized per the rock crawler diagram (orbital and ram are both -6 AN already) but I'll add a secondary pressure relief valve from the rock racer setup, set just below the pump's relief pressure for some redundancy.

I am planning to start with my OEM vette pump (adapted to AN fittings), so my choices are 1) pressure relief valve 2) reservoir and 3) cooler. Vote for your favorites (or propose alternates).

Pressure Relief
All German Motorsports (a friend who works in the industry gave me the referral): https://www.allgermanmotorsports.com/product/ps-pressure-relief-valve
PSC makes one at half the cost that seems to be pretty much the same thing. PSC Remote Pressure Relief Valve

Reservoir, I'm down to Howe or PSC. Howe uses external filters. On PSC's, the filter lives inside the tank. I likely need to call in since I need three ports (one feed and two returns). Either one wants a puke tank.

Cooler. Interestingly both Howe and PSC sell big honking billet single pass coolers. I'm curious why they're not going with tube and fin. Too easy to rupture maybe?

Howe:

PSC:

I don't think it's possible to over cool PS fluid (correct me if I'm wrong) so I might do the bigger Howe to be sure I have margin.


Like I said, your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Tapage]

I've been dealing with PS for a while and bigger it's better .. I run bar / plate ( PSC have them too ) B&M IIRC like 8" x 12" or so .. and tike this setup coz if needed I can ad an small electric fan directly on the cooler for more cooling capacity.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Finally, when capping the can it’s recommended to stick a couple layers of saran wrap between can and lid. If you get any on the paint can seal, that lid is not coming back off.

Good advice, in addition to that, push the saran wrap (or plastic grocery bag) into the paint so that it creates a skin on the top of the POR15. If you let POR 15 sit too long after opening, there's enough oxygen inside to (at minimum) put a skin on the top of the POR 15 and if you leave it long enough, it will harden enough that your only option is a can opener on the bottom of the can for one last use. If you put plastic, on top, it will dry on just the edges but otherwise will stay useable for more then a year....

And somewhere out there is a 54 Studebaker truck with cab corners (they're compound radii) made exclusively of POR15 and fiberglass.... I learned that trick from a paint shop in the mid-90s - so the idea and the application has been around for a long time and it works really, really well.

I did learn something, though, I didn't know that POR 15 was UV light reactive.... though I've never used it in a place where it would be in direct sunlight - that and I don't use POR15 anymore, KBS Coating can be sprayed (and tinted) which made POR15 too cumbersome to use anymore.

 

[frijolee]

I do the "no air" saran wrap trick on my leafover guacamole. Any thoughts on my more recent quandaries, Buick?

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

The biggest challenge of the twin is packaging the MAF. I've been planning to run a card style LS7 MAF, but this would put it right in the merge (turbulence). So the question becomes: twin filters yeah/or neah? If twin's think I can do dual 3" to a 4" merge? What are some pros/cons of speed density tuning...

I like dry systems because then you don't get oil on your MAF sensor - that said, a quick squirt of MAF cleaner and the problem is solved. Where are you going to run it? if there's water and/or a lot of dust, maybe use a tractor pre-filter to a box with a dry filter or wet filter?

I don't think it's possible to over cool PS fluid (correct me if I'm wrong) so I might do the bigger Howe to be sure I have margin.

what pressure is the fluid coming back through the cooler? that last filter is only good to about 80 psi.

I do the "no air" saran wrap trick on my leafover guacamole

*shiver* avocados - those don't enter my house, so preservation of such is kind of a lost deal with me... sorry.

 

[Patineto]

 

[Mace]

Planning on picking up most of the full hydro steering bits I still need. I've been using these two diagrams as my go-to guides for the setup.

http://www.howeperformance.com/pdfs/rockcrawler hose diag.pdf
http://howeperformance.com/pdfs/rockracerreliefdiag.pdf

I'm basically planning on most of the components sized per the rock crawler diagram (orbital and ram are both -6 AN already) but I'll add a secondary pressure relief valve from the rock racer setup, set just below the pump's relief pressure for some redundancy.

I am planning to start with my OEM vette pump (adapted to AN fittings), so my choices are 1) pressure relief valve 2) reservoir and 3) cooler. Vote for your favorites (or propose alternates).

Pressure Relief
All German Motorsports (a friend who works in the industry gave me the referral): https://www.allgermanmotorsports.com/product/ps-pressure-relief-valve
PSC makes one at half the cost that seems to be pretty much the same thing. PSC Remote Pressure Relief Valve

Reservoir, I'm down to Howe or PSC. Howe uses external filters. On PSC's, the filter lives inside the tank. I likely need to call in since I need three ports (one feed and two returns). Either one wants a puke tank.

Cooler. Interestingly both Howe and PSC sell big honking billet single pass coolers. I'm curious why they're not going with tube and fin. Too easy to rupture maybe?

Howe:

PSC:

I don't think it's possible to over cool PS fluid (correct me if I'm wrong) so I might do the bigger Howe to be sure I have margin.


Like I said, your thoughts are appreciated.

PSC for the PRV.

I'd go Howe with the integrated, spin off filter. It's likely overkill, but the additional cooling and volume is a good thing.

Get whichever cooling system you like the most. All of them work fine. The largest reservoir you can fit will do more to keep everything happy. I run a flat plate cooler in my truck and never heat up my steering. Easy peasy..

 

[frijolee]

Thanks for the commentary y'all. Anyone have thoughts on gauges or compressor sizes? I posted 4 topics all at once, and I think some folks may have missed the first couple on the page break.

-Joel

Buick, my front shocks are narrow enough and the high mount alternator / AC compressor I plan are wide enough that the filters have to stay in the nose. If you're picturing something like the Donaldson filters, I don't think I have space for that. Definitely trick but they get huge to make the kind of flow ratings I'd want.

I'm just planning on the AEM prefilter micromesh bag. Whether it's one or two is TBD.

 

[Mace]

Time to pick this back up. I'm making plans for a good bit of shopping on Black Friday/Cyber Monday.

Looking for a bit of commentary/validation of my plans.

Gauges: Speedhut Revolution in 4.5 and 2.062
-Speedo (non GPS 120 mph with turn and high beam)
-Tach (8k with shift)
-Fuel
-Volts
-Water Temp
-Eng Oil Pressure
-Engine Oil Temp
-Trans Oil Temp

Couple tweaks to the standard Revolution versions. These are planned to go in a carbon fiber backing plate. Any you think I should add (or else thoughts on why I don't need some)? Trans temp is probably my biggest debate, but I might tow with this. Water temp can be a surrogate for engine oil temp too...

I'm a big fan of speedhut gauges (I was just setting up a set of the speedo/tach and 4 way, 4 in gauges for a Scout project I'm working on). Burt honestly, just about any quality gauge setup will work fine. Hell, most crappy gauges are okay for that matter..

I didn't want to run autolockers on the street so I'm going toward ARBs. Already have an RD114 (14B rear). Buying a RD167 front. Debate is now compressor to match.

ARBs compressors have a great rep so that's fine. Comparison of their lineup (first 30 seconds gives you the basics).



Black friday deals include a free mini compressor and I already have a C02 tank for full air ups. I'm debating whether the midsize would be worth getting in a pinch for when my C02 tank taps out... Downside is that it's only 50% duty cycle so I could be waiting a long time for that fill. Refilling C02 could become a PITA with big tires too. If I skip straight to the big twin I should be OK since it's 100% duty cycle, but it's heavy, harder to package, and only really claims 37" tires (I'm 41.5s).

What compressor/CO2 mix should I run and I why?

mid size ARB compressor will work okay to air up. It's worlds better than nothing. I use one of the ElCheapo $50 MV-50 air compressors on the ARB in my 60. It produces a heck of a lot of air for the price. I do not believe that it's as reliable as the ARB tho. Remember that you are just adding a compressor for the ARB and possibly as a backup to the CO2 tank. You can wait a bit every couple of years if you have to right??

 

[Mace]

The reason some of the off road guys use the double filters is to make sure they can make max hp with a TON of dirt in the filters. 99% of the time one filter is sufficient. I do not like the original K&N filters. The AEM dry filters work well and are cleanable. UMP filters are really the benchmark, but are MUCH harder to fit. If you can only fit smaller filters, then go with duals to accommodate the flow you may really need.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

air compressors. I have dual Viair 444s on my H3 hummer, and a converted York compressor on my FJ40. The H3 has 35s, the '40 38s. Time-wise, the York compressor kicks tail - it's far faster and produces cooler air. 2 Viair 444s are not as quick-filling as the ARB dual air compressors. I don't own the ARB compressor, but have experience with one - annoying one because it was faster then my recently installed Viair444s - but there it is. If you can put a York on, do it. Otherwise, the dual ARB is faster then dual Viairs.

 

[frijolee]

Remember that you are just adding a compressor for the ARB and possibly as a backup to the CO2 tank. You can wait a bit every couple of years if you have to right??

Finally found a direct resource on how many times I can fill up.

Rough math says 41.5/13.5r17s is quite close to the 39.5/15r15s. This means I'm looking at only 7 tires for a 12-32 psi fill. Every other time I air down I could be using the mid size compressor on that last tire. Every other air down requires a tank fill. That's a PITA and $15-20 every other time I air down. This has me leaning toward the big ARB.

If you can put a York on, do it. Otherwise, the dual ARB is faster then dual Viairs.

I'm planning on Air Conditioning for the rig (the Holley high mount 20-142 is also on my shopping list) and my links wipe out the low mount options so I don't think a engine driven compressor looks very do-able.

 

[Mace]

If it's that much of an issue I'd go with a real compressor like the PUMA and a tank..

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

You can help your air-up times even more by adding a tank. I shy away from carrying compressed anything - just too much that can go wrong - but I know people that use them and love them. At some point I should time the various setups - it's not that I don't trust advertising but I don't trust advertising. On top of all of that, I use the air up time to do an inspection of the vehicle that it's safe for road operation and stow all the gear that got out but not put back while on the trail.... a few minutes more really isn't a big deal, and it's not something where I've said "boy, I sure lost time there airing up" more often it's "oh dang, I need more time to stow stuff".... ymmv.

 

[frijolee]

Really appreciate all the chatter gents. I ended up pulling the trigger on the big ARB twin. I needed a front locker already and the deals were too good to pass up. Several vendors were offering a free ARB mini compressor ($169 value) or else $100 off any other ARB compressor (if you ordered a locker), PLUS 10% off the order. I even talked them into throwing in the manifold kit I needed on top via some competitive bidding between vendors. If the twin is good enough, I can sell my C02 tank setup and recoup a little that way.

Mace, I checked out the Puma but wasn't sure it's what I wanted. Bang for the buck is high, but I think the ARB twin will have the higher flow rate... Just since I'm done and we're kind of closing down the topic I thought I'd share that last bit of my research. This was the thread that was most comprehensive and helpful: Recommend an Air Compressor - High Sierra 4x4.

I'm just going to copy post #2 by user "Kolof" in it's entirety for posterity.

06-17-2015, 06:11 PM
This is something I have been web-wheeling/obsessing about for the last month or so. I have a Jeep so real estate to mount a compressor is tight leaving my options further limited. In my research it seems that there are two main types of systems, portable and OBA (On Board Air). Lockers and air horns pretty much force you to go with an OBA system but they don't use that much air so a small compressor would function fine for those alone. Ignoring the air tools for now, your biggest driving factor is tire size. 37" tires are huge and take a ton of air to fill. Even a modest compressor setup will be a few minutes a tire to fill.

Well there are a few things to consider when looking at a compressor or OBA system. First, any air tank volume you plan to install is insignificant and can be ignored. Air tanks are really only for the air horns. A 2.5 gallon tank isn't enough to air up more than 1 tire so the compressor flow rate is what you should focus on. Second, the tire size is the biggest hurdle to fast refill times. Third, how patient are you when airing back up. Fourth, cfm numbers are misleading/meaningless without a @ _ psi to go with them. Fifth, dont always trust cfm and hp numbers. There is no possible way the PUMA compressor can do the 3.4cfm @40psi when only using 360watts per the EBAY ad, sorry this is just physics. The 360watts does match the ~2 cfm rate on the manufactures website and matches the calculated ~.4-.5hp required to do ~2cfm @40psi. Typical commercial/industrial compressor system efficiency is just below 60% in perfect condition so don't expect a mass produced consumer unit to meet or hold that efficiency.

So realistically, what are your choices? (note that this is not an exhaustive list, just most of what I have seen in the industry)

Super Fast Options
-Power Tank or Similar CO2 system. Pros - Portable system, fastest possible tire fill times, can run ail tools. Cons - Needs to be refilled, bulky, not typically used for lockers (but possible).
-York Compressor, engine driven pump. Pros - ~8cfm is faster than most home/shop compressors, mounts under hood, super reliable, runs air tools all day long, can be built from junkyard parts to save $. Cons - Cost typically over a grand for the nice kits (Kilby), engine must be running, crowded engine compartment or loss of AC on smaller vehicles.
-Oasis Air, york type compressor driven by a big electric motor (used in hummer Central Tire Inflation Systems, think 5hp winch motor). Pros - Fast ~8cfm, reliable, run air tools. Cons - Bulky, heavy, needs lots of electrical power (iffy for single battery setups), ~$1500 price tag.

Fast Options
-Viair Twin compressor kits. Pros - Always have a backup compressor, decent flow rates, many options and price points, kits include all small parts. Cons - Costs generally north of $500, need adequate space.
-Other twin compressor systems, generally from lowriders. Pros - Potential cost savings from Viair systems. Cons - Needs fabbing and many small parts.

Ok Options
-Air Zenith OB2. Pros - ~4cfm at tire air-up pressures, has fan to prevent overheating, water and dust proof, 100% duty cycle, limited use in offroading but proven in lowrider circles. Cons - No install kit so needs fabbing, ~$400
-Outback ExtremeAire Magnum. Pros - ~4.5cfm at tire air-up pressures, 100% duty cycle. Cons - No install kit, ~$550-600.
-ARB CKMT. Pros - ~4.65cfm at tire air-up pressures, 100% duty cycle, small size, pre-assembled with pressure switch, comes with complete wireing and switching harness with provisions for air lockers. Cons - No mounting bracket, $30 extra for the ARB basic hose kit, $550msrp.

Adequate but Slow Options
-Viair Constant Duty kit. Pros - 100% duty cycle, reasonably priced complete OBA system ~$350. Cons - Slow 1.3cfm at tire fill pressures
-PUMA 1006D compressor. Pros - Complete compressor and tank option for easy mounting with space, Cheap ~$120-150 on ebay, decent speed ~2cfm at tire fill speeds. Cons - Cheap, typically dont last long when not mounted inside the vehicle

Other options
These other options were part of my research but not really worth looking into given the 37"+ tire size. These will take 5+ minutes a tire and likely overheat before completing the job. Many cheap compressor dont have overheat protection to expect limited life.
-Smaller Viair OBA kits, will typically his the 33% duty cycle limit prior to having everything full.
-Superflow MV52, portable and cheap $50-70 but dont last long and will begin to overheat as it wears.
-ARB single compressor CKAT, will be over worked filling 37s.
-Harbor Freight type cheapo compressor. Dont waste your time, yes you can afford to replace it once a year when it dies, but it's slow and will die at the worst time.

Most people have their favorites or reasons to stay away from a specific company but with the recession, anyone still on the market is there for a reason. I am still on the fence as to what I want to do but given space and financial constraints I can say I am looking in the "OK" category or starting with the Viair constant duty and upgrading the compressor in the future. But f I had the funds today I would do a york kit.
Last edited by kolof; 02-02-2016, 02:44 PM. Reason: Corrections

Here's the curve on the ARBs.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

good choice

 

[Patineto]

So back to the topic at hand. By far the most economical method I can see would be to pie cut the vette alternator mount in order to roll that away from the shock tower a bit. The belt line is far enough aft of the shocks (vette helps a great deal in this case) that with some fiddling I might be able to get it to work with the mount I already have. Then I add in Holley AC mount and do the same to it as needed, maybe compromising the shock towers slightly. Downside is that I've never welded cast aluminum. Been reading some how tos and to be honest it sounds pretty miserable. Aluminum Welding of Small Castings

So for all the welders on here: What are my odds of getting a decent structural weld in cast aluminum? Any suggestions on material prep, TIG setup, and/or technique? This could be a case where I just tack it and haul it to to a friend, but if it's purely a bad idea I'd rather hear that first.

Thanks in advance,
-Joel

No expert by any extend, but I have been around high end motorcycles for a long time and many of the parts are cast on many methods..

Consensus... No bueno, if possible machining/bolting, but the welding process will require a thermal treatment to diminish the "Tension" and bring back a more homogeneous "Happy" piece..

I'm pretty sure your pieces is not of a high grade 5000-6061 series but those will require a T-6 heat treatment > Distorion >jig equal a pain in the B%%..

I can get you in contact with some people, but I think is easier if you talk with a expert in thermal treatment or a very pro weld shop (not cheap)..

Other choice is "Shoot pin" (like sand blasting but with tiny ball bearings..)

 

[frijolee]

Thanks for posting up... Glad to see folks are reading this thread.

I *think* I'm going to be able to get away without cutting the cast mount parts. If I modify the shock tower assembly I should be able to get the alternator to just tuck under. I'm ordering a Holley 20-142 AC setup for the passenger side.

 

[J Mack]

If you're picturing something like the Donaldson filters, I don't think I have space for that. Definitely trick but they get huge to make the kind of flow ratings I'd want.

Take a look at the Donaldson G2 filters, Volant sells them as the Donaldson Powercore or you can buy OEM and make your own adaptor. FYI I'm using one on my FJ55 originally for the Duramax 6.6 in a homemade box, they filter more dust and flow better than the K&N style you’re looking at for comparable size.








More info here, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...q2SxskvtQ&sig2=BMQlCluCubSz7ry--dTQSQ&cad=rja





And here, Volant