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- Thread starter
- #102
Re: Surface Rust. Mine got most of it when the rig sat through a few months while I was stuck on a long term business trip about a year ago. It sucks because it was so minty fresh before that, but barring some extra work, it's not a big deal.
Removal you have two choices, abrasion or conversion. For abrasion, wire wheels and angle grinders work about as well as anything I've tried. I ran across a video of a special 3m spinning pad think with lots of fingers that is supposed to be bitchin too. Flap discs work fast but it's too easy to leave flat spots on tubing IMHO. Conversion is a chemical reaction. POR-15 calls theirs Metal Prep. I've had good success with Evapo-Rust. If I recall correctly most seem to convert Iron Oxide (rust) into Iron Phosphate (hard brittle but can be sealed over better than rust). When I'm done welding and ready to prime, I'm basically planning to spend day or two with wire wheels and then treat anything I can't get off or get the wheel into.
Rust Prevention has a variety of possible treatments and compounds. One of the more hopeful ones that was pointed out to me on Pirate was Mavcoat. This is RustyNailJustin's race truck and it seems to be holding up well.
You can weld through it, but you do have to clean it off well to paint. I didn't want to risk my paint not holding and since I have some surface rust anyways I decided against the Mavcoat.
Removal you have two choices, abrasion or conversion. For abrasion, wire wheels and angle grinders work about as well as anything I've tried. I ran across a video of a special 3m spinning pad think with lots of fingers that is supposed to be bitchin too. Flap discs work fast but it's too easy to leave flat spots on tubing IMHO. Conversion is a chemical reaction. POR-15 calls theirs Metal Prep. I've had good success with Evapo-Rust. If I recall correctly most seem to convert Iron Oxide (rust) into Iron Phosphate (hard brittle but can be sealed over better than rust). When I'm done welding and ready to prime, I'm basically planning to spend day or two with wire wheels and then treat anything I can't get off or get the wheel into.
Rust Prevention has a variety of possible treatments and compounds. One of the more hopeful ones that was pointed out to me on Pirate was Mavcoat. This is RustyNailJustin's race truck and it seems to be holding up well.
You can weld through it, but you do have to clean it off well to paint. I didn't want to risk my paint not holding and since I have some surface rust anyways I decided against the Mavcoat.
You can use one of these. They come with all kind of drums and work fast on rust without damaging the metal.
I am in a similar situation with surface rust. I have a lot of areas I wanted to get some testing done before I finalized and painted but that means it has had the chance to get a little surface rust. I have used my fair share of wire wheels but I have not tried a conversion process yet. I will most likely do the same as what you are saying and clean everything mechanically the best I can and try a conversion on what I can't reach.
I look forward to watching your progress!
I look forward to watching your progress!
- Thread starter
- #105
Looks like a good tool. I bet that's especially bad ass for body panels and flat surfaces. Have you used one or just know of them?
beyond surface rust prep I am trying to figure out the best way to get rid of old rhino liner. Before I can start body and paint I have to get rid of rhino liner that is on the top and doors I purchased.
Sorry to sidetrack your thread but since we were on the topic of surface prep I thought I would get some input.
Sorry to sidetrack your thread but since we were on the topic of surface prep I thought I would get some input.
Do you have a timeline for when you hope to have this thing driving? I bet you are excited to get it fired up.
Didn't use it myself, yet. Looking to buy one in the near future. Heard from someone else they work well.
- Thread starter
- #109
Glad to chat it up. I'm here for the conversation... Polyurea is the generic compound name used in most bedliners. I don't have special insights on removal but maybe that'll help you searching on it. I did a quick look since I was curious (I'm thinking about Line-X for my floorboards with thumb screwed floor mats for a touch of comfort) and found some folks going crazy with sand blasters.
The problem with that approach for what you're doing is that on thin metal it tends to warp things. It's a bit like shot peening in that it results in some residual compressive stress on the surfaces which tends to make panels bow away and turn into rainbows. Unlike shot peening the surfaces are still jagged so you don't get the improved material properties. Not that material properties matter much in body panels, but there you go.
You might try sanding on an inconspicuous spot and seeing if you can at least smooth it out to paint over, but one way or another, in your shoes I'd probably consider whether I could live with it (or sell/trade to someone else who can). The stuff is pretty gnarly. Sorry!
I have too many irons in the fire to give it a timeline as of yet. It feels like it's a long way off, but maybe not. Getting close to finishing the basic structure. Then it's on to systems and body panels.
Cool cool. For what it's worth I remembered the name of the other bitching surface prep tool I ran across. It's called a bristle disc. Both 3m and Scotchbrite sell them. The bigger 4.5" ones get a touch prices at ~$35 but they work perfect with an angle grinder and the bristles do a great job flexing around tube. If you value your time I think it'd be money well spent.
This is probably the route I'll go. Ran across this on one of the "Welding Tips and Tricks" YouTube videos. That guy is awesome.
weldingtipsandtricks
Be warned if you check out the above channel, it's easy to spend hours and hours (and HOURS) on it.
-Joel
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- Thread starter
- #110
Jumping to the back end of the rig, it's time to talk about one of the harder to figure out areas of structure.
I still wasn't happy with the cage's lateral support as other than bending of the uprights and the little windows to the shock towers there just wasn't anything back there.
I had done some concept efforts but I wasn't really happy with them.
I wanted to keep the tailgate area from flexing so it needed shear support of some kind but tubes would be hard to mount a panel to, particularly since the panel really wanted to be in the middle of the tubes to align to the plane of the hatch. I also needed some way of supporting rear harness should straps and the tailgate cross bar was too low. I felt dumb adding a bar just for harnesses that would be right in the middle of things back there (you can see the horizontal tape peaking out the window in the picture above).
Finally the break through was realizing that the panel back there could be a shear plane so long as it was well supported around the perimeter. Instead of using a horizontal cross bar to support the rear seat harnesses I could do big proper diagonals down to the midpoint of the "tailgate" cross bar (quotes since it won't actually open). Then I could use some rectangular bar that would be easier to bolt my shear panel to and it might all work out.
Digging through scrap at work I found this absolute gem for the application. Sharpie shows my intent for the upper cut.
It was an overly complicated shock upright at one point in time, but that tapering section would be PERFECT for me. You see the diagonal bars still had to be a bit offset to clear the hatch so I needed a landing platform of some sort to get back to the tailgate bar. Here's your author feeling stoked that it'll all work out.
I did make some pretty healthy gusset to help transfer the load downward to the tapering rectangle.
Forgot to snag a picture before we burned this in but it looks like this hilarious medieval club of some sort. I did the bench welding. Steve, did doing another contortionist move to get it installed. Love the footwork.
Note, I thought really seriously about putting swing out hardware in the two major diagonals to make them removable. It would have been two products from Rhodes Racing: Elite Swing Outs up top: Elite Series Swing Out Kits and Pro Series Swing Outs on the bottoms Pro Series Swing Out Door Bar Kits (since it'd be easier to cut and interface to my landing platform). I eventually decide not. Partly because it's stronger this way. Partly because the space behind the rear seat will suck anyways so I probably have a roof rack and camping trailer in my future. Partly because I'm living lean while job hunting and I didn't want to spend the $200.
I should also mention that these diagonal bars were some of the hardest to cut and fit! They were notched right next to a bend (hard to clamp in the notcher), interface with a junction of two bars at the C-pillar roof node, and they were long and heavy (0.120 wall) since I'd be attaching my children to them. That made it twice as hard to sharpie what they needed to be. I think I nibbled away at these for about 4 days before I got them right.
Anyways, here's the end result.
Clears the hatch fine but now you can see why the junction got kinda complicated on me. It's tucked within about a 1/8" of the hatch when closed.
-Joel
Structure count: +7 pieces (only counting the taper guy as 1 since I didn't build it)
Added to date: +21 pieces
I still wasn't happy with the cage's lateral support as other than bending of the uprights and the little windows to the shock towers there just wasn't anything back there.
I had done some concept efforts but I wasn't really happy with them.
I wanted to keep the tailgate area from flexing so it needed shear support of some kind but tubes would be hard to mount a panel to, particularly since the panel really wanted to be in the middle of the tubes to align to the plane of the hatch. I also needed some way of supporting rear harness should straps and the tailgate cross bar was too low. I felt dumb adding a bar just for harnesses that would be right in the middle of things back there (you can see the horizontal tape peaking out the window in the picture above).
Finally the break through was realizing that the panel back there could be a shear plane so long as it was well supported around the perimeter. Instead of using a horizontal cross bar to support the rear seat harnesses I could do big proper diagonals down to the midpoint of the "tailgate" cross bar (quotes since it won't actually open). Then I could use some rectangular bar that would be easier to bolt my shear panel to and it might all work out.
Digging through scrap at work I found this absolute gem for the application. Sharpie shows my intent for the upper cut.
It was an overly complicated shock upright at one point in time, but that tapering section would be PERFECT for me. You see the diagonal bars still had to be a bit offset to clear the hatch so I needed a landing platform of some sort to get back to the tailgate bar. Here's your author feeling stoked that it'll all work out.
I did make some pretty healthy gusset to help transfer the load downward to the tapering rectangle.
Forgot to snag a picture before we burned this in but it looks like this hilarious medieval club of some sort. I did the bench welding. Steve, did doing another contortionist move to get it installed. Love the footwork.
Note, I thought really seriously about putting swing out hardware in the two major diagonals to make them removable. It would have been two products from Rhodes Racing: Elite Swing Outs up top: Elite Series Swing Out Kits and Pro Series Swing Outs on the bottoms Pro Series Swing Out Door Bar Kits (since it'd be easier to cut and interface to my landing platform). I eventually decide not. Partly because it's stronger this way. Partly because the space behind the rear seat will suck anyways so I probably have a roof rack and camping trailer in my future. Partly because I'm living lean while job hunting and I didn't want to spend the $200.
I should also mention that these diagonal bars were some of the hardest to cut and fit! They were notched right next to a bend (hard to clamp in the notcher), interface with a junction of two bars at the C-pillar roof node, and they were long and heavy (0.120 wall) since I'd be attaching my children to them. That made it twice as hard to sharpie what they needed to be. I think I nibbled away at these for about 4 days before I got them right.
Anyways, here's the end result.
Clears the hatch fine but now you can see why the junction got kinda complicated on me. It's tucked within about a 1/8" of the hatch when closed.
-Joel
Structure count: +7 pieces (only counting the taper guy as 1 since I didn't build it)
Added to date: +21 pieces
Water Jetting or Ultra High Pressure Water Blasting will remove polyurea coatings without warping the sub-straight, I have a 40,000 PSI water blaster and we’ve removed paint from an old pickup truck bed fooling around one day just to see how it would work and to our surprise no noticeable warpage even turn up close to max.
This video show the process at 20,000 PSI,
If only I had access to that equipment! I may have to stick with a wire wheel to try and get it off for now.
- Thread starter
- #114
With the new tailgate vertical welded in I could finally add my trailer hitch and work on the rear bumper.
Concept:
Basic idea was to mimic the bumper form factor to keep that design element going.
Main rear frame notched. 3/16" wall tube confirmed.
At the last minute I second guessed myself and tried to shift the hitch as low as I could. Then I cleverly still plasma cut to my former line (*sigh*). Oh well, the great thing about working with metal is that you can always put it back.
Bench welding to be sure it was true. This started as a 9" Curt hitch. Stupid cheap vs. doing it yourself.
Mockup (only the lower three pieces are tacked at this point). The rest just sort of balanced there.
Shifting lower meant my bars weren't quite perfect anymore so we used a few clamps to keep pull things the last bit in line. The inside I cut off flush so I ended up with a 7" hitch tube. Big daddy clamp came from my grandfather. Why do grandfathers always have the most awesome tools?
Note to self, free metal that's be pre-powdercoated isn't worth your trouble. I spent too long sanding on that upper rear bar. 0.120 wall for the lowers 0.065 on the little bits and upper (figured it's ok to keep those light since I want them to absorb energy).
The wide spacing on the center mounts was for a mini light bar which will serve as back up lights for night use. Mounting for that started with some crusty brackets I had lying around.
Made trick little slotted mounts.
Lands nicely while keeping it deep to stay well protected.
-Joel
Structure count (this round): +10 pieces
Net added to date: +31 pieces
Concept:
Basic idea was to mimic the bumper form factor to keep that design element going.
Main rear frame notched. 3/16" wall tube confirmed.
At the last minute I second guessed myself and tried to shift the hitch as low as I could. Then I cleverly still plasma cut to my former line (*sigh*). Oh well, the great thing about working with metal is that you can always put it back.
Bench welding to be sure it was true. This started as a 9" Curt hitch. Stupid cheap vs. doing it yourself.
Mockup (only the lower three pieces are tacked at this point). The rest just sort of balanced there.
Shifting lower meant my bars weren't quite perfect anymore so we used a few clamps to keep pull things the last bit in line. The inside I cut off flush so I ended up with a 7" hitch tube. Big daddy clamp came from my grandfather. Why do grandfathers always have the most awesome tools?
Note to self, free metal that's be pre-powdercoated isn't worth your trouble. I spent too long sanding on that upper rear bar. 0.120 wall for the lowers 0.065 on the little bits and upper (figured it's ok to keep those light since I want them to absorb energy).
The wide spacing on the center mounts was for a mini light bar which will serve as back up lights for night use. Mounting for that started with some crusty brackets I had lying around.
Made trick little slotted mounts.
Lands nicely while keeping it deep to stay well protected.
-Joel
Structure count (this round): +10 pieces
Net added to date: +31 pieces
Nice job.
Just found something on the contour sander that might interest you.
Just found something on the contour sander that might interest you.
That thing is pretty cool. It is a little bulky looking so might be hard to get into some areas but that's true for about any power tool.
Thanks for sharing! I wonder if that black roller would take off the rhino liner???
Thanks for sharing! I wonder if that black roller would take off the rhino liner???
- Thread starter
- #117
Sometime in here I decided to do a flex check to verify the suspension travel. One cool thing about the ORI struts is that you can use them to articulate the suspension. The lower reservoir adjusts stiffness and must be dialed in first. The upper sets ride height.
The trick is that if you leave the lower at zero you can pressure the upper and just raise it all the way (or close to in my case).
Full bump:
And up she goes:
I'm using an aftermarket version of a dual fill kit. Uniweld 800PSI Dual Hose Kit | Schmidty Racing Picked this up plus a little 20 lb nitrogen bottle ($80 plus $20 for the fill at Airgas).
This thing looks huge when it's up in the air.
Impressive how far the rear tire tucks in laterally (dual triangulated links mean the axle stays centered).
Quick reference if I want to make my gas tank hang over the rail and install from above.
Looks like the frame notch is there for a reason. Prior owner did good work.
Up front if I want to run fenders (needed for CA road legality) they'll actually need to flare up and out quite a bit.
Only downside of the kit I bought (well really appears to be an issue with all the nitrogen kits I know of), it uses a copper washer to seal. When I first snugged it down it was leaking so I tightened more. Apparently it's a bit of a fine line between sealing and plastic deformation on the schrader. Opps. My bad.
I did figure out you can disassemble the valve though so I just need a new schrader. This was easy enough to screw up that I'll probably grab some spares.
Anyways, feeling a great deal more confident in my ability to close out the front shock towers while having sufficient clearances for the range of travel on the ORIs.
-Joel
The trick is that if you leave the lower at zero you can pressure the upper and just raise it all the way (or close to in my case).
Full bump:
And up she goes:
I'm using an aftermarket version of a dual fill kit. Uniweld 800PSI Dual Hose Kit | Schmidty Racing Picked this up plus a little 20 lb nitrogen bottle ($80 plus $20 for the fill at Airgas).
This thing looks huge when it's up in the air.
Impressive how far the rear tire tucks in laterally (dual triangulated links mean the axle stays centered).
Quick reference if I want to make my gas tank hang over the rail and install from above.
Looks like the frame notch is there for a reason. Prior owner did good work.
Up front if I want to run fenders (needed for CA road legality) they'll actually need to flare up and out quite a bit.
Only downside of the kit I bought (well really appears to be an issue with all the nitrogen kits I know of), it uses a copper washer to seal. When I first snugged it down it was leaking so I tightened more. Apparently it's a bit of a fine line between sealing and plastic deformation on the schrader. Opps. My bad.
I did figure out you can disassemble the valve though so I just need a new schrader. This was easy enough to screw up that I'll probably grab some spares.
Anyways, feeling a great deal more confident in my ability to close out the front shock towers while having sufficient clearances for the range of travel on the ORIs.
-Joel
It may just be the pictures but those ORI's don't look like 16's they appear shorter to me.
Also I have the same dual fill kit and you do have to tighten it pretty good to not leak! I will have to make sure I am very careful when I am adjusting mine!!!
Also I have the same dual fill kit and you do have to tighten it pretty good to not leak! I will have to make sure I am very careful when I am adjusting mine!!!
Ok got it makes sense not to ram it into the garage 
This thing is looking great!
makes sense not to ram it into the garage This thing is looking great!
