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- #21
Glad to help the community.
Ignition switch replacement procedure. (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dubbinchris
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Same thing is happening to me. Replaced the 10 year old Die Hard and still does it occasionally when cold...which can be at 7 pm here in Tahoe. Will check my starter wires first but probably is the switch because a few quick turn of the key back and forth it fires right up and cranks FAST.
- Thread starter
- #23
A little update to my thread. These symptoms convinced me it was the ignition switch but even after replacing the switch I still have the same symptoms on cold mornings which tells me it's likely the contacts inside the starter. When it gets a little warmer I'm going to go over the cables and their connections but I have a strong feeling at this point that I need to rebuild the starter.
It's the contacts...same symptoms I had. Search starter rebuild threads. Lots of good info here
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- #25
Pretty much my thoughts.
This is the link I followed for this procedure. http://www.george4wd.taskled.com/starter.html It was cross referenced here on Mud, but kind of hard to find. Between this and the and the FSM it was not that hard and took me a couple hours. I think I used an appropriately sized socket rather than the block of wood the FSM suggests for holding the contacts in place.
I am having same issues. just did it now. trying to move it out of the driveway to let my wife out of the garage. is driving me crazy. I install OEM starter like 3 years ago. I will look into it before going the new switch route. thanks guys
frisman
frisman
2fpower
SILVER Star
Well, add me to the boat of it not fixing my issue (different than starter issue)... every so often, maybe 1 out of 10 times now, you start the car and then the radio, heater, clock, etc do not turn on for one to 30 minutes.
Any relays that might control this? When you turn the key to start everything turns off, then returns after you quit engaging the starter. I assumed this was all controlled in the ignition switch, is there relay's that might be sticking somewhere?
Any relays that might control this? When you turn the key to start everything turns off, then returns after you quit engaging the starter. I assumed this was all controlled in the ignition switch, is there relay's that might be sticking somewhere?
Thanks for the heads up about the problem possibly being the stater rather than the switch. Also, good to know there is a cold starter option for the starter too. I recently put the Canadian LC optioned battery (from Batteries Plus Bulbs) in and couldn't be happier. It has nearly as much CCA and reserve as the big Die Hard Platinum one touted here on MUD without without the need to modify the battery/box and change cables. Drops in and with a 5 year warranty! I wrote about it on a battery post.
Installed my own ignition switch today. The tips and pics were very helpful, because the FSM sure isn't. A few notes and maybe some pics later.
The robust, square silver dongle switch that is part of the ignition switch harness is, I believe, the interlock for the theft deterrent locking wheel/ignition system.
You may find that the part you receive is more like a kit, as was mine. Don't think this was an issue with my part vendor, as the part arrived in it's box and that was properly packed to avoid rattle around space. I suspect maybe dropped at an intermediate warehouse. In any case, the white plastic cover popped off mine, causing what I assume was a completely assembled switch to disassemble. I had the white cover, the switch body, the center rotary contact assembly, two stamped brass plates, 2 springs, and 2 balls. After some puzzling around, I pretty much figured it out, figuring I would check my work in disassembling the old one. Extracted it and attempted to open carefully. Everything went flying!
Luck was on my side in that I recovered everything, but I still was wondering about the springs and balls. Turns out they go into two cavities opposite one another on the center rotary contact assembly. They work by pushing out in grooves inside the white plastic cover to both retain and let the switch move smoothly. Or sumtin'.
Note also that the center rotary contact assembly also has 5 more smaller springs pointing down toward where the brass contact plates ride. This lets things slide while staying in contact while you turn the key. These could have come loose, too, but had enough grease and were small enough not to fall out. If you lose any of this with the new part, you can scavenge from the old, but don't lose any if you do what I discuss next.
Why discuss all this, beyond the possibility you may get a kit instead of the expected assembly? Well, the contacts look like they could be cleaned, although they had obviously seen better days. If you don't want to cough up a C note for new or need try try a quick repair, the way the switch disassembled for me points to the fact you can take it apart, clean it, and then reuse. Unless you're very quick it'll take you several hours to pull the switch, so not a casual repair, but not difficult, either. FYI, FWIW.
To get the switch assembled it helps to be a 5-handed, 7-thumbed monkey. I eventually found that pushing the center rotary contact assembly down into the white plastic cover while pushing the balls in on their springs, then stacking the contact plates, orienting all and press the whole thing down on the switch body seemed to work best. Or just have you wife do it. Just make sure she doesn't lose the balls...
Based on my symptoms and others reports here, I don't expect a complete cure. I did have several no starts when I had relay clicking before I got it going or once cranking it seemed to skip or drop contact momentarily as cranking, so I expect I'll eventually need contacts down on the starter. never had to smack it to get started, though. But more of my no-starts were just dead -- until I juggled the key around and found juice. This clearly pointed to the ignition switch as part of the issue, well over 90% of the no starts were related to it IMO. And that part is solved. Sometimes with ~20 year old vehicles, there are multiple potential failure points and you just keep at it until you get them all resolved.
The robust, square silver dongle switch that is part of the ignition switch harness is, I believe, the interlock for the theft deterrent locking wheel/ignition system.
You may find that the part you receive is more like a kit, as was mine. Don't think this was an issue with my part vendor, as the part arrived in it's box and that was properly packed to avoid rattle around space. I suspect maybe dropped at an intermediate warehouse. In any case, the white plastic cover popped off mine, causing what I assume was a completely assembled switch to disassemble. I had the white cover, the switch body, the center rotary contact assembly, two stamped brass plates, 2 springs, and 2 balls. After some puzzling around, I pretty much figured it out, figuring I would check my work in disassembling the old one. Extracted it and attempted to open carefully. Everything went flying!
Luck was on my side in that I recovered everything, but I still was wondering about the springs and balls. Turns out they go into two cavities opposite one another on the center rotary contact assembly. They work by pushing out in grooves inside the white plastic cover to both retain and let the switch move smoothly. Or sumtin'.
Note also that the center rotary contact assembly also has 5 more smaller springs pointing down toward where the brass contact plates ride. This lets things slide while staying in contact while you turn the key. These could have come loose, too, but had enough grease and were small enough not to fall out. If you lose any of this with the new part, you can scavenge from the old, but don't lose any if you do what I discuss next.
Why discuss all this, beyond the possibility you may get a kit instead of the expected assembly? Well, the contacts look like they could be cleaned, although they had obviously seen better days. If you don't want to cough up a C note for new or need try try a quick repair, the way the switch disassembled for me points to the fact you can take it apart, clean it, and then reuse. Unless you're very quick it'll take you several hours to pull the switch, so not a casual repair, but not difficult, either. FYI, FWIW.
To get the switch assembled it helps to be a 5-handed, 7-thumbed monkey. I eventually found that pushing the center rotary contact assembly down into the white plastic cover while pushing the balls in on their springs, then stacking the contact plates, orienting all and press the whole thing down on the switch body seemed to work best. Or just have you wife do it. Just make sure she doesn't lose the balls...
Based on my symptoms and others reports here, I don't expect a complete cure. I did have several no starts when I had relay clicking before I got it going or once cranking it seemed to skip or drop contact momentarily as cranking, so I expect I'll eventually need contacts down on the starter. never had to smack it to get started, though. But more of my no-starts were just dead -- until I juggled the key around and found juice. This clearly pointed to the ignition switch as part of the issue, well over 90% of the no starts were related to it IMO. And that part is solved. Sometimes with ~20 year old vehicles, there are multiple potential failure points and you just keep at it until you get them all resolved.
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Throwing in some pics for reference
SNIP
After some puzzling around, I pretty much figured it out, figuring I would check my work in disassembling the old one. Extracted it and attempted to open carefully. Everything went flying!
Luck was on my side in that I recovered everything, but I still was wondering about the springs and balls. Turns out they go into two cavities opposite one another on the center rotary contact assembly. They work by pushing out in grooves inside the white plastic cover to both retain and let the switch move smoothly. Or sumtin'.
Pic of side of center rotary contact assembly. Note hole, where the two big springs go (one is on opposite side) and the balls ride on inside the white cover.
Note also that the center rotary contact assembly also has 5 more smaller springs pointing down toward where the brass contact plates ride. This lets things slide while staying in contact while you turn the key. These could have come loose, too, but had enough grease and were small enough not to fall out.
If you lose any of this with the new part, you can scavenge from the old, but don't lose any if you do what I discuss next.
Why discuss all this, beyond the possibility you may get a kit instead of the expected assembly? Well, the contacts look like they could be cleaned, although they had obviously seen better days.
If you don't want to cough up a C note for new or need try try a quick repair, the way the switch disassembled for me points to the fact you can take it apart, clean it, and then reuse. Unless you're very quick it'll take you several hours to pull the switch, so not a casual repair, but not difficult, either. FYI, FWIW.
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The robust, square silver dongle switch that is part of the ignition switch harness is, I believe, the interlock for the theft deterrent locking wheel/ignition system.
View attachment 1109128
You may find that the part you receive is more like a kit, as was mine.
SNIP
In any case, the white plastic cover popped off mine, causing what I assume was a completely assembled switch to disassemble. I had the white cover, the switch body, the center rotary contact assembly, two stamped brass plates, 2 springs, and 2 balls.
View attachment 1109129
View attachment 1109128
You may find that the part you receive is more like a kit, as was mine.
SNIP
In any case, the white plastic cover popped off mine, causing what I assume was a completely assembled switch to disassemble. I had the white cover, the switch body, the center rotary contact assembly, two stamped brass plates, 2 springs, and 2 balls.
View attachment 1109129
SNIP
To get the switch assembled it helps to be a 5-handed, 7-thumbed monkey. I eventually found that pushing the center rotary contact assembly down into the white plastic cover while pushing the balls in on their springs, then stacking the contact plates, orienting all and press the whole thing down on the switch body seemed to work best. Or just have you wife do it. Just make sure she doesn't lose the balls...
If you look at the 5 o'clock and 10 o'clock positions, you can see the balls down in their groves on the inside of the cup.
Next, stack the contact plates in properly oriented. Note that you're looking at the top side here, which will be upside down when placed in the cup on the rotary contactor
Everything stacked in the white cup/cover.
Finally slip the white cup down over thing. If properly lined it should snap on easily. Don't force it and break it, but keep trying to line things up and you'll get it.
Based on my symptoms and others reports here, I don't expect a complete cure.
SNIP
This clearly pointed to the ignition switch as part of the issue, well over 90% of the no starts were related to it IMO. And that part is solved. Sometimes with ~20 year old vehicles, there are multiple potential failure points and you just keep at it until you get them all resolved.
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Sorry for the funky posting above. Guess the info's there. I shouldn't be writing that late...
Was getting the old ignition switch reassembled (takes about a minute once you have it figured out -- and I'm slow), so wiped the contacts and contact plates down to assess the issue better. The pics tell the tale. A significant darkening traces the path of the plat across the related contacts. On the one -- possibly Start itself? -- there is a significant impingement, like someone used a punch to flatten the spot.
Was getting the old ignition switch reassembled (takes about a minute once you have it figured out -- and I'm slow), so wiped the contacts and contact plates down to assess the issue better. The pics tell the tale. A significant darkening traces the path of the plat across the related contacts. On the one -- possibly Start itself? -- there is a significant impingement, like someone used a punch to flatten the spot.
A couple of more. First the actual switch body showing the button contacts the plates above slide across.
Then a pic of the inside of the cover to help quick diagnosis. The blackening seems to be from the arcing that was going on inside the switch as it aged. A small amount is probably present in older vehicles, but this seems excessive and another indication of issues in the switch.
Then a pic of the inside of the cover to help quick diagnosis. The blackening seems to be from the arcing that was going on inside the switch as it aged. A small amount is probably present in older vehicles, but this seems excessive and another indication of issues in the switch.
And now the rest of the story:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/so...stem-failure-ignition-switch-solenoid.872026/
After an initial few great starts following the ignition switch R&R, all of the sudden things actually got worse
So the starter/solenoid/contacts also needed attention. In the followup I've linked above I speculate that the aging of our vehicles means that it's likely two failure points -- the ignition switch and the starter solenoid/contacts -- may both be involved to some degree and the interaction between the two can result in differing and variable symptoms. The take home: pay attention to both as factors in restoring your starting system to full performance.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/so...stem-failure-ignition-switch-solenoid.872026/
After an initial few great starts following the ignition switch R&R, all of the sudden things actually got worse
So the starter/solenoid/contacts also needed attention. In the followup I've linked above I speculate that the aging of our vehicles means that it's likely two failure points -- the ignition switch and the starter solenoid/contacts -- may both be involved to some degree and the interaction between the two can result in differing and variable symptoms. The take home: pay attention to both as factors in restoring your starting system to full performance.
Green truck- I found myself in the same boat 2 weeks ago.
Yeah, not surprising.
We tend to do a lot of analysis here, as you should in trying to resolve most mysterious automotive problems without a clearcut indication of the exact cause. No point in throwing money at problems unless there's not just theory, but evidence -- or at least all the facts at hand are taken into consideration.
I've read a lot of these threads in recent months. They tend to follow the pattern of trying to determine a single point failure and the related fix. That's all good stuff and useful to know.
The only innovation I'm really making here is to suggest, at least with the starting system, that it's more of a systemic failure. There's lots of reserve built into the system, so you don't notice the little things chipping away at system efficiency, in this case getting a good strong signal to the solenoid to let 'er rip. And you can often fix a single component and restore operation. Thing is, you may solve the biggest issue at the moment, only to leave lingering problems.
Backing up to theory, I suspect that vehicles that see a lot of in-town, short runs, start and stop cycles will tend to have more issues with the ignition switch. That's something to consider in diagnosing things if the symptoms aren't clearcut and pointing at the starter itself. Obviously, the starter itself sees the same number cycles, but I suspect its life is probably longer on average than an ignition switch will be in short duty cycles. The motor is generally considered good for 300,000 until overhaul. A lot folks seem to get lives approaching that from starters. With longer trips and fewer starts. the ignition switch doesn't see enough wear and tear to show the issues it has developing. With twice as many starts form being in town, for example, might be the source of relatively more serious issues with the ignition switch.
And if the ignition switch is failing, installing new solenoid contacts or a reman starter usually seemingly solves the issue. However, the ignition switch may start showing up more plainly down the road after such a fix. The first thing I'd check at that point would be the ignition switch if not previously looked at.
We tend to do a lot of analysis here, as you should in trying to resolve most mysterious automotive problems without a clearcut indication of the exact cause. No point in throwing money at problems unless there's not just theory, but evidence -- or at least all the facts at hand are taken into consideration.
I've read a lot of these threads in recent months. They tend to follow the pattern of trying to determine a single point failure and the related fix. That's all good stuff and useful to know.
The only innovation I'm really making here is to suggest, at least with the starting system, that it's more of a systemic failure. There's lots of reserve built into the system, so you don't notice the little things chipping away at system efficiency, in this case getting a good strong signal to the solenoid to let 'er rip. And you can often fix a single component and restore operation. Thing is, you may solve the biggest issue at the moment, only to leave lingering problems.
Backing up to theory, I suspect that vehicles that see a lot of in-town, short runs, start and stop cycles will tend to have more issues with the ignition switch. That's something to consider in diagnosing things if the symptoms aren't clearcut and pointing at the starter itself. Obviously, the starter itself sees the same number cycles, but I suspect its life is probably longer on average than an ignition switch will be in short duty cycles. The motor is generally considered good for 300,000 until overhaul. A lot folks seem to get lives approaching that from starters. With longer trips and fewer starts. the ignition switch doesn't see enough wear and tear to show the issues it has developing. With twice as many starts form being in town, for example, might be the source of relatively more serious issues with the ignition switch.
And if the ignition switch is failing, installing new solenoid contacts or a reman starter usually seemingly solves the issue. However, the ignition switch may start showing up more plainly down the road after such a fix. The first thing I'd check at that point would be the ignition switch if not previously looked at.
Thanks for the update.
Going through this same intermittent starting thing right now with a Toyota Reman starter from Cdan with 30,000 miles on it. I bought the ignition switch, starter contacts and plunger! Just haven't had the time to trouble shoot it yet.
I'll post up what I find.
Going through this same intermittent starting thing right now with a Toyota Reman starter from Cdan with 30,000 miles on it. I bought the ignition switch, starter contacts and plunger! Just haven't had the time to trouble shoot it yet.
I'll post up what I find.
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The ign switch is very durable, have only replaced a couple and were related to wiring trauma, accessories hacked onto the switch harness.
The starter contacts are the main wear part in the starter, have replaced lots of them.
The starter contacts are the main wear part in the starter, have replaced lots of them.
