Are you saying that you can do the swing outs with the purchasers choice of attachment for $395 per side? If so, then I like your pricing a little better. At the same time, Bump-it doesn't offer dual swing outs that I know of, but a full bumper with a tire carrier is only $1350. I'm not trying to run off your business, I'm just trying to help you see thing from another point of view so that you can set your price point so that you actually sell these. I like the concept and wish you luck in your business.
HEFTY Fabworks Rear Bumper Wings!
- Thread starter ardentyota
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Are you saying that you can do the swing outs with the purchasers choice of attachment for $395 per side? If so, then I like your pricing a little better. At the same time, Bump-it doesn't offer dual swing outs that I know of, but a full bumper with a tire carrier is only $1350. I'm not trying to run off your business, I'm just trying to help you see thing from another point of view so that you can set your price point so that you actually sell these. I like the concept and wish you luck in your business.
Yes! swing outs of choice for $395 each.
$1350 for bumpit vs. $1095 for us. Plus the shipping savings will be about $400 less total.
We also will customize your bumper at little to no additional cost (within reason) If you want the full bumper we can do that too.
I'm not figuring pricing by what the competition is selling theirs at. The bottom line is that I have been in business for well over a decade and choose to provide a top quality product at a reasonable price. There is no reason a front or rear bumper for these trucks should cost over $2000 but if the market supports that then the manufactures will sell it at that price. We take a different approach and price our products where they need to be for us to provide quality and still make a profit. Our company overhead is minimal so we are able to price them lower. The 80 series rear bumpers are a complex design due to the way that Toyota manufactured the rear frame and crossmember. This prototype took a long time to build. Ardents bumper cost us a lot in materials to get it right and over 60 hours of build time. The next ones won't take anywhere near that but we have to calculate our profit and material cost per unit to come up with pricing.
The 80 series rear bumper wing concept and design was based toward the consumer who is looking to get rid of the plastic corners and add some protection. As far as strength goes I am completely confident that our design will stand up to the harshest of terrain and wheeling situations as well as providing much more protection in the daily driving situations. For $700 you can get a tough rear bumper for you 80 series and if you want to add the swing outs and options that is available as well for an affordable rate.
$1350 for bumpit vs. $1095 for us. Plus the shipping savings will be about $400 less total.
We also will customize your bumper at little to no additional cost (within reason) If you want the full bumper we can do that too.
I'm not figuring pricing by what the competition is selling theirs at. The bottom line is that I have been in business for well over a decade and choose to provide a top quality product at a reasonable price. There is no reason a front or rear bumper for these trucks should cost over $2000 but if the market supports that then the manufactures will sell it at that price. We take a different approach and price our products where they need to be for us to provide quality and still make a profit. Our company overhead is minimal so we are able to price them lower. The 80 series rear bumpers are a complex design due to the way that Toyota manufactured the rear frame and crossmember. This prototype took a long time to build. Ardents bumper cost us a lot in materials to get it right and over 60 hours of build time. The next ones won't take anywhere near that but we have to calculate our profit and material cost per unit to come up with pricing.
The 80 series rear bumper wing concept and design was based toward the consumer who is looking to get rid of the plastic corners and add some protection. As far as strength goes I am completely confident that our design will stand up to the harshest of terrain and wheeling situations as well as providing much more protection in the daily driving situations. For $700 you can get a tough rear bumper for you 80 series and if you want to add the swing outs and options that is available as well for an affordable rate.
little_joe
SILVER Star
I agree this is a great concept and it's a great option for 80 owners! But I also agree on the price issue, e.g. 2 wings are almost 50% more than a bare-bones 4x4Labs bumper; and w/ dual swingouts, cross-shopping IPOR, Slee, etc will be inevitable.
I am curious if these wings have been tested to take the weight of an 80 smashing down onto a rock? and how they held up?
I am curious if these wings have been tested to take the weight of an 80 smashing down onto a rock? and how they held up?
Yes they have been tested and will continue to be tested over the next months. We are very hard on our product testing to make sure that they hold up to the abuse that they will inevitably be put through. We test our products on the hardest trails in Colorado and in Moab. I am not concerned with their ability to take a beating.
As far as them being 50% higher in price than 4x4 labs that is absolutely incorrect! The 4x4 Labs bumper kit is less expensive but requires the purchaser to do all of the welding, grinding, fitment, etc. This is not a DIY bumper kit. It is fully welded and finished ready to be bolted on. The comparison between a kit that has to be welded by the purchaser and one that it complete is not fully accurate.. I can add $20 worth of steel to the center to make it a complete one piece bumper and mark the price up by $400-600 to make it comparable to every other bumper on the market, or I can stick with what I've designed, built and tested for a lower price, ready to bolt on.
We are new to the Landcruiser market and as such I expect our products to undergo criticism. I am not afraid to make a product, test it, change it, etc. If we find that our price point is out of range then we will adjust the price point. If we can't make money at it we won't build it. As far as testing the 80 series bumpers and wether they will hold up to the weight of the 80 series, the FZJ 80 is the lightest vehicle that we produce bumpers for. The bumpers are built to be beat on, abused, bashed on rocks and come away doing their job every time. The 80 series is a very capable vehicle and we set out to provide products to compliment and strengthen what it already has built into it. Our business focus has been on building quality product for fullsize trucks and SUV's. We don't build products for Jeeps. I wouldn't expect a Jeep bumper to be sufficient for a full size rig or a FZJ 80. I can honestly state that these bumpers will hold up to the abuse you put it through.
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Really?
While I personally think the price is fine, I think the comparison to the 4x4 Labs DIY bumper is rather apt. For the price of the 4x4 Labs kit, you actually get more than you do with what you have.
For that matter, you can simply bolt up the 4x4 Lab wings and drive around like that. I know, I did it.
Think about the comparison for a minute here:
4x4 Labs DIY kit
2 wings
bumper shell
(other misc parts)
$495
Hefty Bumper
2 wings
(other misc parts)
~$700
The Hefty bumper isn't really a complete bumper. It provides the majority of the protection that you need, but it's not complete. If you bought the 4x4 Labs DIY kit, you could bolt up the wings and provide about the same amount of protection as the Hefty wings and have the option of finishing it off as a complete bumper down the road.
Yes, there are other differences, and pro's and con's to each setup. But at heart they are rather similar, so I'm quite surprised that you'd expect people not to compare the two.
I don't have a dog in this race as I just finished my rear bumper (which does happen to be a 4x4 Labs DIY kit). When I first saw the pics I thought that it was a really slick setup, and looked like it would be a good bolt on option for people who want more protection but also want to stay stockish.
Even the price didn't seem out of line. While I do think it's a bit on the high side, I don't think it's unreasonable as the wings appear to be one of the more complex/expensive portions of the bumper (more bends, more cuts, more complex to fit).
What did turn me off was the way you've responded to posts in this thread. While you haven't come across as outright belligerent, you have come across (at least to me) as defensive, argumentative, and unwilling to consider feedback.
I won't be buying a bumper--already got one, remember--so it's not like you've lost a purchase here from me. Just seems that you're stuffing your fingers in your ears and chanting "nah-nah-nah" instead of listening to the people who sign your paycheck.
ardentyota
Flexy
- Thread starter
- #27
Really?
While I personally think the price is fine, I think the comparison to the 4x4 Labs DIY bumper is rather apt. For the price of the 4x4 Labs kit, you actually get more than you do with what you have.
For that matter, you can simply bolt up the 4x4 Lab wings and drive around like that. I know, I did it.
Think about the comparison for a minute here:
4x4 Labs DIY kit
2 wings
bumper shell
(other misc parts)
$495
Hefty Bumper
2 wings
(other misc parts)
~$700
I agree that the 4x4 labs bumper comparison isn't a horrible one, but there are a few other differences. The 4x4Labs design (as best as I can tell from what I've seen) requires cutting the rear cross-member- something that many people don't want to do.
I haven't seen a bolt-together version- did you make a thread on those?
Thanks for your comments on it! I love the bumper and I can definitely, without a doubt, say that Chris wasn't trying be belligerent or argumentative. (He's just ruff around the edges)
Really?
While I personally think the price is fine, I think the comparison to the 4x4 Labs DIY bumper is rather apt. For the price of the 4x4 Labs kit, you actually get more than you do with what you have.
For that matter, you can simply bolt up the 4x4 Lab wings and drive around like that. I know, I did it.
Think about the comparison for a minute here:
4x4 Labs DIY kit
2 wings
bumper shell
(other misc parts)
$495
Hefty Bumper
2 wings
(other misc parts)
~$700
I was not aware of a bolt-together kit. All that I have seen of theirs is the weld-together kits which place most of the variables (alignment/welding/finishing) on the costumer. This is a lot of the cost (time) of building the bumper. I know it is unreasonable to say that it is an inaccurate comparison as the consumer is going to make the comparisons.
I think where our design/pricing will stand out is in a fully-loaded version. As I stated before, we should come in lower than a pre-assembled 4x4Labs bumper with dual swing outs and options. But our goal isn't to simply beat their price.
Do your bolt-together wings still require an modification of the frame? I know that many customers are very adverse to modifying the frame in any way, which is part of the reason for our design.
The Hefty bumper isn't really a complete bumper. It provides the majority of the protection that you need, but it's not complete. If you bought the 4x4 Labs DIY kit, you could bolt up the wings and provide about the same amount of protection as the Hefty wings and have the option of finishing it off as a complete bumper down the road.
Yes, there are other differences, and pro's and con's to each setup. But at heart they are rather similar, so I'm quite surprised that you'd expect people not to compare the two.
Again, you're right- I shouldn't expect people not to compare them.
I don't have a dog in this race as I just finished my rear bumper (which does happen to be a 4x4 Labs DIY kit). When I first saw the pics I thought that it was a really slick setup, and looked like it would be a good bolt on option for people who want more protection but also want to stay stockish.
Even the price didn't seem out of line. While I do think it's a bit on the high side, I don't think it's unreasonable as the wings appear to be one of the more complex/expensive portions of the bumper (more bends, more cuts, more complex to fit).
Thank you.
What did turn me off was the way you've responded to posts in this thread. While you haven't come across as outright belligerent, you have come across (at least to me) as defensive, argumentative, and unwilling to consider feedback.
I can see now how the way I worded my post could have come across that way, and I apologize for that. We are open to feedback, and I don't want it to appear otherwise.
I won't be buying a bumper--already got one, remember--so it's not like you've lost a purchase here from me. Just seems that you're stuffing your fingers in your ears and chanting "nah-nah-nah" instead of listening to the people who sign your paycheck.
Again- Nate's right, I wasn't trying to be rude or childish in my post above. I'm sorry if it came across that way. Thanks for your post and feedback. I appreciate it!
The 4x4 labs is a bolt on. It's actually quite similar to the Hefty one, you bolt on the wings, then drop the shell in place and tack weld it. Pull it off, finish the welds, and you're done.
Yes you have to cut off the cross member, but people who are generally going for this level of armor are also seeking better departure angles. The Hefty bumper doesn't really improve on that.
Honestly, the 4x4 Labs bumper is extremely simple to build. I'm a very novice welder and found it easy. I'm sure I could take it to any fab shop and they'd weld it up for dirt cheap (leaving me to grind, flap disk, and paint). It took me maybe 8 hours, mostly by myself, and going really slow. Most of that was spent with the grinding wheel and flap disk making it pretty.
If I was in a hurry I could probably have done it in just a couple hours. The welding was maybe an hours worth of work, and an expert welder with a MIG (instead of ARC) would probably be a third of that.
So add in a hundred bucks (or even two) for a pro welder to put the bumper together for you, and you're still at or below the same price for the Hefty setup, but for a full bumper rather than just wings.
Thanks for your comments on it! I love the bumper and I can definitely, without a doubt, say that Chris wasn't trying be belligerent or argumentative. (He's just ruff around the edges)
I didn't figure he was trying to be. Most people don't try, it just comes naturally.
ardentyota
Flexy
- Thread starter
- #30
I guess I don't consider that to be bolt-together. Some people will like the project of welding the bumper together (which is why 4x4Labs made the kit) and others won't. That's what it really comes down to IMO.
My original point was that you could buy the 4x4 Labs DIY kit, bolt on the just the wings, and have the same protection as the Hefty kit for $200 less. No welding required.
It would not look as nice as it wouldn't retain the stock bumper cover (at least not without some modification), but $200 is a significant portion of that $700 price.
Again, even if I paid someone to weld together the 4x4 Labs bumper, the price would probably be less for the DIY kit and someone to weld it than just the Hefty wings, which isn't a full bumper. Luke charges $400 if he welds it together, but he can afford to, his time is at a premium since he has very little free time. A lot of local fabricators are sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
The Hefty wing's market is fairly narrow:
1) Someone who wants heavy duty protection for the rear quarters.
2) Someone who wants to retain the stock bumper/cross-member.
3) Someone who is not willing to weld (or find and pay a local fabricator to weld).
4) Someone who does not want (or care about) a full bumper.
5) Someone who doesn't care that much about improving clearance.
6) Someone who wants something that looks good (compared to how the 4x4 Lab wings without the cover would look, somewhat goofy).
7) Someone who's willing to pay more than the 4x4 Lab kit.
Do those people exist? I'm sure, but several of those qualifications are somewhat contradictory. Most people who want #1 won't want (or care about) #2. And they most certainly won't agree with #4. And in the current economy, not too many people are willing to pay more for what they perceive as the same or similar (or even less, as it's just wing VS full bumper).
In order for this to appeal to more people, I would design it to replace the bumper cover but keep the stock cross member. You'd gain a bit of clearance as the bumper cover hangs way down, and fully protect the rear end. Supposedly that's only $20 more in steel, so the full bumper should be available for $720, right?
ardentyota
Flexy
- Thread starter
- #32
In order for this to appeal to more people, I would design it to replace the bumper cover but keep the stock cross member. You'd gain a bit of clearance as the bumper cover hangs way down, and fully protect the rear end. Supposedly that's only $20 more in steel, so the full bumper should be available for $720, right?
I'm not sure what you're referring to as the "Bumper Cover." The stock cross member is currently the lowest point and most rearward point on my frame. The bumper wings do not cause any loss of clearance. The only difference between the wings and a full bumper that caps the frame/cross member is the piece of steel that "caps" the cross memeber. It wouldn't add much strength.
My original point was that you could buy the 4x4 Labs DIY kit, bolt on the just the wings, and have the same protection as the Hefty kit for $200 less. No welding required.
It would not look as nice as it wouldn't retain the stock bumper cover (at least not without some modification), but $200 is a significant portion of that $700 price.
Again, even if I paid someone to weld together the 4x4 Labs bumper, the price would probably be less for the DIY kit and someone to weld it than just the Hefty wings, which isn't a full bumper. Luke charges $400 if he welds it together, but he can afford to, his time is at a premium since he has very little free time. A lot of local fabricators are sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
The Hefty wing's market is fairly narrow:
1) Someone who wants heavy duty protection for the rear quarters.
2) Someone who wants to retain the stock bumper/cross-member.
3) Someone who is not willing to weld (or find and pay a local fabricator to weld).
4) Someone who does not want (or care about) a full bumper.
5) Someone who doesn't care that much about improving clearance.
6) Someone who wants something that looks good (compared to how the 4x4 Lab wings without the cover would look, somewhat goofy).
7) Someone who's willing to pay more than the 4x4 Lab kit.
Do those people exist? I'm sure, but several of those qualifications are somewhat contradictory. Most people who want #1 won't want (or care about) #2. And they most certainly won't agree with #4. And in the current economy, not too many people are willing to pay more for what they perceive as the same or similar (or even less, as it's just wing VS full bumper).
In order for this to appeal to more people, I would design it to replace the bumper cover but keep the stock cross member. You'd gain a bit of clearance as the bumper cover hangs way down, and fully protect the rear end. Supposedly that's only $20 more in steel, so the full bumper should be available for $720, right?
LOL
The biggest reason that we built a wing version was due to the emails we received asking us if we would do so. The outer wings are the most complex part of the structure. At $720 for a full rear I would be way low for the market period. I really do appreciate the comments and feedback and again I am not trying to be snide in anyway. We are constantly looking for ways to improve our products and offer new products to our clients.
Why buy from HF
1) Someone who wants heavy duty protection for the rear quarters.
2) Someone who wants to retain the stock bumper/cross-member.
3) Someone who is not willing to weld (or find and pay a local fabricator to weld).
4) Someone who does not want (or care about) a full bumper.
5) Someone who doesn't care that much about improving clearance.
6) Someone who wants something that looks good (compared to how the 4x4 Lab wings without the cover would look, somewhat goofy).
7) Someone who's willing to pay more than the 4x4 Lab kit.
These are all great reasons! There are a lot of people who don't want to cut up the rear cross member but are looking for additional protection. If they aren't willing to cut their cross member they are probably not going to want to weld their own bumper together. If they won't cut the cross member they aren't as worried about clearance. I appreciate the comment on the looks of our bumper as we actually built it 3 times trying to get the best look for the vehicle. If they don't want to weld a kit together you have to expect to pay more. My welder doesn't run for free. I always expect to be compared to the other products available on the market and thats fine. I am not 4x4 Labs with the same exact product. In every other situation a "Bolt On" product does not require any cutting or welding period to install the product. Am I wrong here? I just don't see how you can say that the DIY kit would be the same as a bolt on kit.
little_joe
SILVER Star
I would offer up reason #8, which IMHO is a very compelling reason to want the Hefty bumper wings:
8. Someone who wants a rear swingout or swingouts but doesn't want a full aftermarket bumper.
And this is where the inevitable comparisons to Slee, IPOR, Bump-It, et al will come in. Leave 4x4Labs out of it for a minute. For some amount nominally more, much more, or even less, a person can choose a full bumper outfitted the same vs your wings and swingouts.
I am of the opinion that just the wings at the current price-point are not at all attractive, very little gain for the coin when a full bumper can be had. Add the swingouts and the system becomes competitive.
In the end, though, you know your business and your market, and those of us on 'Mud will endlessly debate the merits of the solutions vis-a-vis cost, protection, strength, adaptability, etc.
8. Someone who wants a rear swingout or swingouts but doesn't want a full aftermarket bumper.
And this is where the inevitable comparisons to Slee, IPOR, Bump-It, et al will come in. Leave 4x4Labs out of it for a minute. For some amount nominally more, much more, or even less, a person can choose a full bumper outfitted the same vs your wings and swingouts.
I am of the opinion that just the wings at the current price-point are not at all attractive, very little gain for the coin when a full bumper can be had. Add the swingouts and the system becomes competitive.
In the end, though, you know your business and your market, and those of us on 'Mud will endlessly debate the merits of the solutions vis-a-vis cost, protection, strength, adaptability, etc.
Very well put joe. This was designed to be another option that is currently not out there. If it doesn't work then a full bumper may be in our future product line.
Honestly Ebag you can't call the 4x4 DIY kit bolt on.
IH8MUD.com - View Single Post - Anyone bored tonight?
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The market will dictate pricing, no reason for us to fight about it. I like the idea solely from a weight perspective. I recently worked with a local fab guy to build a custom rear bumper. It looks and functions perfectly. Will the construction hold up to years of hard use? Time will tell.
BUT the one issue I have with all full bumpers is the weight. My new bumper lowered the rear end of my rig by an inch. Reverse stink bug! The beauty of this design is weight savings. The option of adding $20.00 worth of metal between the wings and having fairly full coverage and still reducing weight is a nice idea.
As for the vender defending his as of yet market unproven pricing, some around here have been kinda hard on him. It is a good idea that I think should come to the market, once there the consumer will give him the best feedback on his pricing.
P.S., great idea about the 4x4 wings without the shell. It was the weight that got me to turn away from the 4x4 labs bumper. Also, our local club did a 4x4 labs rear bumper buy awhile back. A lot of local knowledge about putting the thing together and getting it on the Cruiser. Right before Moab this year, one of the crew offered to help a new guy build and install his 4x4 labs bumper. Keep in mind that this was someone who put together his own, and helped with several others. Lets just say it took a lot longer than he remembered.
Don’t underestimate the build time on the 4x4 labs or any cruiser diy project.
Good luck.
BUT the one issue I have with all full bumpers is the weight. My new bumper lowered the rear end of my rig by an inch. Reverse stink bug! The beauty of this design is weight savings. The option of adding $20.00 worth of metal between the wings and having fairly full coverage and still reducing weight is a nice idea.
As for the vender defending his as of yet market unproven pricing, some around here have been kinda hard on him. It is a good idea that I think should come to the market, once there the consumer will give him the best feedback on his pricing.
P.S., great idea about the 4x4 wings without the shell. It was the weight that got me to turn away from the 4x4 labs bumper. Also, our local club did a 4x4 labs rear bumper buy awhile back. A lot of local knowledge about putting the thing together and getting it on the Cruiser. Right before Moab this year, one of the crew offered to help a new guy build and install his 4x4 labs bumper. Keep in mind that this was someone who put together his own, and helped with several others. Lets just say it took a lot longer than he remembered.
Don’t underestimate the build time on the 4x4 labs or any cruiser diy project.Good luck.
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I for one think it's a great idea and will be looking into this for my rig 
Not all of us need the extra beef of a full bumper
And as much as I've been drooling over Luke's work, the pricing is just out of reach for me
All I really want is get the spare out of the stock location and add a pair of swingouts (spare and ladder/beer cooler holder)
I've been putting off welding up a pair of spindle mounts for the stock bumper ala Wildyoats.....
but the Hefty wings look like an excellent alternative, especially if the price is right
Hefty, what would the cost be for a pair of wings with spindles installed as shown in the OP photo? (bare, not powder coated as I tend to spray everything in bedliner)
I plan on adding the swingouts myself later on
Rick
Not all of us need the extra beef of a full bumper
And as much as I've been drooling over Luke's work, the pricing is just out of reach for me
All I really want is get the spare out of the stock location and add a pair of swingouts (spare and ladder/beer cooler holder)
I've been putting off welding up a pair of spindle mounts for the stock bumper ala Wildyoats.....
but the Hefty wings look like an excellent alternative, especially if the price is right
Hefty, what would the cost be for a pair of wings with spindles installed as shown in the OP photo? (bare, not powder coated as I tend to spray everything in bedliner)
I plan on adding the swingouts myself later on
Rick
Replied to your E-mail Rick
Wow, you really need to get better photos up because I could not understand this whole thread until SnakeEater posted up WildYoats photos. Now I get it and definitely a cool idea and no reason a Drawtite Hitch would't work with it for those who tow serious loads!
