Framers - Step right up for a question (1 Viewer)

[KLF]

That looks like the new Henry "blue skin" house wrap too?

Yup that's the stuff. It's a good product, but i don't like all the waste of that backing paper.

 

[MrMikeyG]

I agree. I used it on one project. It took a couple of runs to get into an install groove with it. It does seem like a nice product, but pretty expensive too.

 

[agomez]

Looks like the 2x12 goes right up to the plate omitting the need for cripples which would have been fussy with the amount of space left over if you used a 2x8 header. Also that extra 2x king stud could be a used as nailer for the fin on the New window.

 

[KLF]

I agree. I used it on one project. It took a couple of runs to get into an install groove with it. It does seem like a nice product, but pretty expensive too.

I'm thinking of using it on my porch project, but I only need about 30', have to buy 100' roll. I can see how it would take some practice to get it installed without a bunch of wrinkles that might show thru to the siding.

Looks like the 2x12 goes right up to the plate omitting the need for cripples which would have been fussy with the amount of space left over if you used a 2x8 header. Also that extra 2x king stud could be a used as nailer for the fin on the New window.

I'm OK with using the 2x12, but the header doesn't need to be SOLID. Window fins are only about 1.5" long.

 

[Redgrrr]

By the time you get insulated space around the window the nailing fin usually only has about 7/8” to an 1” bearing on framing. You frame the RO an inch over the width and height of the window. So a 48x60” window would have a rough opening of 49”x61”

 

[KLF]

By the time you get insulated space around the window the nailing fin usually only has about 7/8” to an 1” bearing on framing. You frame the RO an inch over the width and height of the window. So a 48x60” window would have a rough opening of 49”x61”

I just laid out some framing for some Mathews Brothers windows yesterday, they only want 1/2" over unit dimensions for the RO. They have 1-1/2" fins. Same thing for ThermaTru doors. 1" of shim space is too much IMO.

 

[Redgrrr]

Yes the fins are 1 3/8”- 1 1/2” wide but after the insulated space is accounted for there only bearing on the framing about that 7/8” Or so I stated above.

Your concerned about efficiency and insulation but you only expect 1/4” of space around the window for insulation?
1/2” is standard in my cold climate...not too mention If the opening gets racked and it’s not square because humans make mistakes The window won’t fit now

I’ve been only doing this work for 20+ years Professionally and since I was a kid with dad grandpa...those dudes never paid no one to do something they could ever...especially with free child labor. Gramps owned motels/hotels and maintained himself. been in a wood shop since I could walk.

Here is my take and how I was trained on insulation too since that’s the questions at hand...

1. I silicon the opening before I set the window except for 2” on the lower left and right of the window in case water and or condensation does get in it can go to the outside of structure

2. I use backer rod to the back of the flange from the interior side

3. I spray foam to glue the frame in to the RO

4. finish off with scraps of batt insulation to keep foam from making a mess.

I’ve had excellent bosses and mentors throughout my career that took the time to teach in the field. so I’m just relaying what I’ve been taught and practiced.

 

[MrMikeyG]

@Redgrrr I have always wondered about backer rod. Does it have a r value number assigned to it? Backer rod and spray foam sounds good, but how does the combo perform vs all spray foam? Just curious, I've seen lots of strange things out here. We generally use the 1" over actual for rough openings out here.

 

[KLF]

Well this is a very timely and informative discussion. I'm actually kinda driving myself a little crazy right now with a project, trying to reno a porch that has these stupid doors that are all leaking. Looks like this on the inside:

That's one side, those are 3' wide doors stuck together to make the walls of a 3-season porch (total of 10 doors). 4 of them can be opened, but it's a PITA as you can't put any furniture in front of them. There are 4x4s at the corners, so no structural framing is needed. They all leak now and 2 of them are broken (tempered DP glazing). So I want to pull the all out, put in a knee wall, and double-hungs all the way around. 9 windows and one door leading out to a deck. Dimensions are really tight, no walls on either side. I'm in kinda over my head.

Looking at Mathews Brothers windows, they recommend 1/2" over for the RO, both ways. Anderson is 3/4" on the sides, 1/2" top. Marvin is 1" sides, 1/2" top. ThermaTru is 3/4" on the sides for shimming, 1/2" minimum at the top for insulation.

I think the RO framing is a personal choice, and your confidence in the framing crew (if it's not you). This framing is actually pretty square and plumb. It's all about the trim and trying to get it as slim as possible. I also want the knee wall to be 2x6 width, and a full stool and skirt (I hate picture framed windows in houses).

I've used backer rod, or low-e spray foam (my preference), but not both. @Redgrrr curious why you do?

Do you have a preference for window brands? Too many to pick from. I need stainable wood on the inside, but would like paintable vinyl clad on the outside (all the exterior trim is dark green). Cedar beveled siding.

 

[Redgrrr]

@Redgrrr I have always wondered about backer rod. Does it have a r value number assigned to it? Backer rod and spray foam sounds good, but how does the combo perform vs all spray foam? Just curious, I've seen lots of strange things out here. We generally use the 1" over actual for rough openings out here.

I started using the backer rod at the fin after the insulation company I use for bigger jobs advised it’s a better draft stop. It also stops the foam I’ve found from making its way outside on the cheaper windows. Not sure on the R-value but I would think it’s similar to the foam.
sometimes I’ve seen foam shrink on the windows I’ve torn out and replaced as well. Foam is also expensive when I bid windows.. Plus it’s a waste when it expands out past the sheet rock trying to fill the cavity perfectly. So I fill Foam around the window and finish with scrap batt insulation.

I looked at those windows you mentioned @KLF and those look well built and a good example of what I’d use in your area.
I like using window Made in your particular area of the country because they understand the environment their used in and you can get them undamaged with shorter trucking distances. I’ve never confirmed it or anything but the humidity content of the wood if it comes from a similar environment to where it’s a installed just makes sense. I personally use Marvin for my higher end work and Jeldwin for vinyl budget projects.

 

[MrMikeyG]

Oof. That is a complicated refresh.
@KLF if you're trying to retain the same relative amount of glazing, the new framing could be pretty straightforward. Decide on your knee wall height, then based upon your top 2 choices of window, you would have your overall height and width ( for rough opening needs). It looks like you shouldn't need any new header material since you already had doors in there correct?
@Redgrrr ignoring the mess, I like spray foam better. If I am doing the install that's what I end up using. I have one of the better foam guns (like 40-50 bucks) not the Hilti, and the multi-use cans. True window and door foam is supposed to stay flexible over time, where the gap and crack foam will harden. I'm sure you've experienced the fun of old spray foam at demo time (super fine dust, very brittle), and I have no idea if the current chemical make-up will act any different over 10-20 years. My misgiving with stuffing extra fiberglass or whatever in there is that it's pretty difficult to not compress fiberglass into small spaces without taking away some of its R value. I've personally seen about every combination that we've discussed in this thread though. If you've participated in or read up on any of the higher LEED standards, that's where stuff gets silly as far as insulation and energy seal. Thankfully, I've escaped that game so far.

 

[KLF]

Oof. That is a complicated refresh.
@KLF if you're trying to retain the same relative amount of glazing, the new framing could be pretty straightforward. Decide on your knee wall height, then based upon your top 2 choices of window, you would have your overall height and width ( for rough opening needs). It looks like you shouldn't need any new header material since you already had doors in there correct?

I submitted for permits yesterday, waiting to hear back. I worked with a local Marvin vendor to find the best combo of windows in the Elevate line, they were super helpful. Very minimal framing to accomplish the ROs. One triple window, 2 doubles, 2 singles. No structural header needed, but I do need a top plate for trim. It's a tight build, there will be no drywall above 22", all trim. Gonna have to get a custom cut door, 6'-6" unit high will barely fit.

 

[MrMikeyG]

Cool. I hope you have a easy going jurisdiction, and things move through the system smoothly.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Interesting thread. Nothing to add of structural significance but I am a big fan of adding multiple, short studs (short as in maybe 1’) outside the top of a window to screw curtain rod Holders into. My wife always insists on having the curtain stack outside of the window which can mean the rod holder needs to be up to a foot outside the window. The same can be achieved by extending the header but that probably results in more framing.

 

[MrMikeyG]

@WarDamnEagle Oh yeah; "backers." have you ever had to repair a towel bar or TP holder in your bathroom? If I have the chance, I run flat 2x6 in strategic locations on every job now just to facilitate people mounting things to the wall. I loathe hanging bath hardware but being able to attach the screws into wood framing helps a lot.

 

[KLF]

Picked up the permits yesterday. Full demo starting tomorrow. Now the race is on to get it weathertight before it gets too cold.

Extra blocking is key, and you can use scraps from the pile. Don't forget things like door stops, door knob strike zones, stair handrails, and extra support for central vac ports (I've seen them get ripped out of the drywall). They didn't do enough of this in my house, worst spot is above the tub surround, no way to firmly attach the shower curtain rod. Guess I'll be hacking that drywall open.

 

[PAToyota]

Yep, I specify blocking in kitchens, bathrooms, closets, and a few other places to take care of such things. Here's the blocking for future grab bars in a shower. Makes things a heck of a lot nicer and easier when the time comes to redo cabinets, towel bars, shelves, and such.

 

[KLF]

OK, question time, folks.

Walls are framed. I was gonna used Blueskin as the housewrap, but OMFG that stuff is expensive. A 100' roll is over $250, which is crazy since I would only need about a third of a roll. So, made a snap decision at the lumberyard to go with Zip sheathing. I actually really like the stuff but have never used it. Put it up yesterday (only 4 sheets), the special tape is pretty easy to use, and the rolling process is quick.

But now I have a stumper. I know from reading the catalog drawings that the windows are 4-9/16" deep from the back of the fin to the face of the inner frame. All the brands are like that. Why? Why not 4-1/2"? I asked the window guy and he actually didn't know either. And, now since the Zip sheathing is only 7/16" thick, my 2x4 walls will only be 4-7/16" deep. How do I handle the inner window frames being 1/8" proud of the sheetrock? Shim the back of the trim? Cut a rabbet in the trim on the table saw? Get 5/8" sheetrock? I can't really cant the trim that much, the miters at the corners will be a mess (using flat trim).

Yes, I really do obsess about little details like this.

 

[Redgrrr]

By the time you layer 7/16 sheeting, 3 1/2” stud, 1/2” drywall It measures in that 4 9/16” range add in Texture and mud it’s It’s usually thicker.

 

[KLF]

By the time you layer 7/16 sheeting, 3 1/2” stud, 1/2” drywall It measures in that 4 9/16” range add in Texture and mud it’s It’s usually thicker.

1/8" of mud?

Maybe an extra layer of flashing tape on the outside before I set the windows will help.