Framers - Step right up for a question (1 Viewer)

[KLF]

So here I am, an engineer that has built a few homes for Habitat and now I teach classes in Green Building. I focus on good construction techniques that maximize materials used plus also encourage energy savings. I've been in a quite a few framed homes, and have done some framing, including a reno project that I'm about to start on my own home.

Consider the photo below that I took just last Fall at an addition I was inspecting in Maine.

To me, that window is MASSIVLY overframed. Lots of wasted wood. I tried to ask the framing super why they used so many studs, but I was dismissed as "that's the way we do it". I don't accept this, but I didn't want to be the jerk. I see this ALL THE TIME, even my own house has some of these issues. I would like someone to tell me why:

• Even on the gable side of the roof, the header above the window is SOLID. Triple 2x12's with plywood to space it out to 5-1/2" for the 2x6 walls
• Double king studs
• Double rough sills
• Jacks under the sills
• Four stud corners

This is a genuine query, I need this for class. I can tell you I looked all this up in the IBC book and it is not required. So this is not a code thing. Putting extra framing in the wall means you are reducing the insulation which significantly reduces the overall effective R-value.

What am I missing?

 

[gnob]

Not a framer, but in my little experience, agree with you. Typically single king stud. Most headers ive seen are actually headers though, not "build ups"
If its not code, move on. Some guys just build from their ego. Right or wrong.

 

[Redgrrr]

Overbuilt isn’t a bad thing for sway/wind etc... That header would have like a 3” cripple Studs above a 2x6 header So when you nail into them they split..

I framed earlier in my carpentry career and I like what I see in that pic...I do finish work on higher end homes and I ask for an extra king stud like that if you have some of the wider trim that goes with those types of houses. Same for the exterior details that have rough timber trim that’s sizable. Need to able to screw and nail so when the material dries it can’t twist/warp as easily cause you can get your fastener at the edges. That’s my $.02

on the gable-end question a 2x6 or 2x4 header would be fine if that’s the wall framing unless you end up with short cripples again. Or need the extra wood for the trim details. I’ve always worked for builders that over build though so...that’s my trained opinion. I’m not an engineer.

 

[Redgrrr]

By the way I like the supers answer to your question that’s a fact.

What’s it cost $7 more per opening to have a double king stud and roughly $6 per foot of header if it’s tripled up like you said. When the header is nailed to the top plate like that you can feel it in the wall when you stand it how much stronger it is like that. Go into older spec or economy built houses and look for drywall cracks above the window corners Because of wind movement on the houses.You gotta build for your areas snow or wind load possibilities. Not everything can be taught in a book or caught by an inspector in my opinion.

 

[Redgrrr]

While talking about overbuilt structures I can’t not include a framing detail that I see from two of the high-end builders I work for in my area. They use LVL studs on the cabinet walls. Expensive detail but when I hang 40K worth of cabinetry it goes so much easier and looks better with super flat walls.
You get an 1 3/4” of stud to hit with your screws but have to pre-drill about 3/4 of the screw depth.

I use a tapered bit that goes from a point to 1/8” at the shank end.

 

[KLF]

Thanks for the insight.

I guess the problem I have with the double kings is the loss of R-value at a critical spot next to the window. Yeah, it's only a few bucks for a pair of extra studs, but the extra energy cost is much more over the life of the home.

I get the full depth header, but does it need to be solid? No. Two pieces of 2x12, leave the middle open and stuff it full of rigid or spray foam.

I still don't understand the double sills, and jacks at the ends of the sills. The sills only hold the weight of the window, which is negligible. If you really need something for the trim, why not just scab some scrap 2X material blocking in there. But, that takes more time. Labor would probably cost more than another stud off the pile.

Interesting point on the LVL studs. I've seen them a few places, and that makes total sense how the walls will be much flatter and stiffer.

 

[Redgrrr]

In a super cold or super hot environment I would like to see a thermal camera image of just how much R value loss you get with that King stud And sill being doubled up...proofs in the pudding sort of deal. With all the house wrap and tape we use these days I would think it’s pretty minimal.
I’ve used buffalo board between headers before instead of plywood and would think that would help but 2” thick rigid foam between header material basically kills all the strength I would think you get from them getting layered and nailed wood to wood. I see two stack together/nailed on the exterior side and then packed out with rigid foam and plywood inside for Trim nailers Often but the nails don’t hold as well. When I attach trim I generally use the rule of 125% of nail into framing of the thickness of the trim material. So roughly a 3/4” board needs the nail to pass through sheeting and go an 1 1/4” into framing material.

From a liability standpoint after a builder has to pay for drywall cracks time after time a year after the house has been finished they start to say no more and just over frame it and tell the efficiency minded guys to pound sand...I am doing it my way because your way cost me money later...again that’s my $.02 opinion. Not trying to be offensive just a critical Conversation of how everyone tries to tell us how to do our jobs from Architect To engineers that don’t help pay the fix it bills later!

 

[KLF]

In a super cold or super hot environment I would like to see a thermal camera image of just how much R value loss you get with that King stud

Good question, and worth exploring. I'll try to get the FLIR out to this house when it's cold out to see what it tells me.

From a liability standpoint after a builder has to pay for drywall cracks time after time a year after the house has been finished they start to say no more and just over frame it and tell the efficiency minded guys to pound sand...I am doing it my way because your way cost me money later...again that’s my $.02 opinion. Not trying to be offensive just a critical Conversation of how everyone tries to tell us how to do our jobs from Architect To engineers that don’t help pay the fix it bills later!

See... this is what I need to hear about. Absolutely no offense taken. I try very hard to make sure my lectures and discussions are also founded not on just science and calculations, but there is a "real world" aspect to how/why we do things. I am generally critical of some of the "green" efforts as they just don't pay for themselves in the long run. Some of the stuff in the LEED evaluation system are just ludicrous (I'm not a fan of LEED, and less so the more I look at it). I looked at a really fancy rainwater capture system for a large building a year ago, they use the water to flush the toilets. Sounds good in practice but the maintenance costs have been astronomical.

 

[Redgrrr]

I read a lot of your post over years about your teaching/training classes. We need more Passionate people like yourself In education.

Not everyone is off to a 4 year college education bound for a desk.

 

[sogafarm]

Agree with everything @Redgrrr has mentioned. Overbuilt is better than underbuilt when it comes to houses. I assume your using sprayfoam insulation, which is great stuff when applied correctly, but non structural. A solidly built home is good insurance when storms come around. The insulation value of the windows are more important when it comes to energy savings. I think the extra studs will also come in handy when you nail up the casing, sill, and or apron, giving you the option of going to wider stock which looks better on a window in my humble opinion, but I have only about 25 years experience in finish carpentry and tile so what do I know.
R value of 2x6 stud by itself is just under a 7, FYI.

 

[Redgrrr]

I thought I mentioned siding in the above response but the extra king stud and sill are needed if the exterior has trim so you have framing to nail the siding to around the window. This isn’t an issue when the new construction siding goes over the window flange. However in 25-40 year range the window will need replacing but not necessarily the siding.

You have to cut the siding back to remove the window and then use trim to cover the new windows flange back up and without that second king stud and sill your out of luck getting the siding nailed properly on the ends. That’s another scenario that it’s a convenience for later.

 

[KLF]

Agree with everything @Redgrrr has mentioned. Overbuilt is better than underbuilt when it comes to houses. I assume your using sprayfoam insulation, which is great stuff when applied correctly, but non structural. A solidly built home is good insurance when storms come around. The insulation value of the windows are more important when it comes to energy savings. I think the extra studs will also come in handy when you nail up the casing, sill, and or apron, giving you the option of going to wider stock which looks better on a window in my humble opinion, but I have only about 25 years experience in finish carpentry and tile so what do I know.
R value of 2x6 stud by itself is just under a 7, FYI.

Spray foam as a general insulation product has kinda fallen out of favor around here. Several reasons. It is most useful to fill in floor joist bays at the rims and for sealing penetrations in the ceilings prior to blowing in cellulose. Excellent at that.

I actually spent some time today at a local yard looking closely at some windows. It's interesting the methods some have used to improving sealing to lower the leakage rate. Looking vary hard at the Mathews Brothers, but wow they are not cheap.

We preach about R-value, but actually more energy is lost now in most homes from leakage, not thermal transfer.

 

[KLF]

I thought I mentioned siding in the above response but the extra king stud and sill are needed if the exterior has trim so you have framing to nail the siding to around the window. This isn’t an issue when the new construction siding goes over the window flange. However in 25-40 year range the window will need replacing but not necessarily the siding.

You have to cut the siding back to remove the window and then use trim to cover the new windows flange back up and without that second king stud and sill your out of luck getting the siding nailed properly on the ends. That’s another scenario that it’s a convenience for later.

The one time I've replaced a window, I actually pulled all the vinyl siding off, at least enough to get the window out. Or are you talking about rigid siding (wood, cement)? Seems kinda drastic to cut the siding out of the J-channels and away from the fin? I guess I'm too surgical when I do demo.

 

[Redgrrr]

That is the pain in the ass way you have to do it when there isn't a second king stud

Houses need to be forever serviceable...For me too say i can remove brittle old sun baked vinyl siding and put it back up in original form is gonna cost the homeowner some serious cheddar...id rather cut back install new channel/trim for a set price, give the homeowner a decent price and put their money in my bank account...Yes it for sure all comes down money in the end. For the homeowner and the worker!

I hate cheap crap materials. build a house for generations without plastic garbage. in my area i swear the siding companies sell a 10 year product because they get work on the same house every decade from hail...Cedar siding last for decades but you have to sand and repaint after hail unless its the size of a softball. my $.02 again.

 

[MrMikeyG]

I'm not a framer, but I work for a general contractor and since our outfit is 3 people, i end up doing a lot of things, and I end up being the guy on site for most of our inspections. Based solely on the initial post (and ignoring all of the further comments), my first thought regarding the header was is there something really odd/crazy going on above that window? My second thought was that yes, that is a lot of material for that size opening. Other things I see; that rough opening width is around 28-30" maybe? drop back to one cripple dead center perhaps? Delete that stud that looks to be about 2" to the right of the right hand king stud. I know things get strange sometimes when trying to keep to 16" OC framing when having to add extra studs per engineering etc.
I agree with @Redgrrr too; I end up having to do a lot of "fussy" demo and fixes, and finding no framing in the wall to attach to, or out here in WA sometimes no sheathing on the walls under the siding is a real bitch to rectify on site. Tearing off existing wood millwork and then having to install mdf due to either budget or time to source the proper wood replacement is a tough pill to swallow.

 

[snobdds]

A lot of this is carry over from 2x4 framing and no sheeting which needed more wood in a wall to get the rigidity and racking strength. They just kept it going.

Now most build with 2x6 and use sheet goods to get good strong walls with no racking.

When my dad and I built our cabin, I noticed he tended to frame like the picture. I did the single king studs and later on when putting on hardy board, my framing was much harder to get the siding fastened to the meat of the wood without cracking the brittle hardy board. Where he framed, I had plenty of wood to come back 2 inches and hit a solid stud without breaking.

For a house with cement siding, all openings should have double king studs.

 

[sogafarm]

Spray foam as a general insulation product has kinda fallen out of favor around here. Several reasons. It is most useful to fill in floor joist bays at the rims and for sealing penetrations in the ceilings prior to blowing in cellulose. Excellent at that.

I actually spent some time today at a local yard looking closely at some windows. It's interesting the methods some have used to improving sealing to lower the leakage rate. Looking vary hard at the Mathews Brothers, but wow they are not cheap.

We preach about R-value, but actually more energy is lost now in most homes from leakage, not thermal transfer.

I live in a hot and humid climate so we tend to build to different standards than up north. The last few new construction houses I've worked on all received the spray foam insulation which basically turns the whole house into a Yeti cooler. I was initially scepticle thinking that the house couldn't breathe properly with it being sealed in foam. After seeing the utility bills on these houses over the hot summers, I'm sold on the stuff. They maintain temp far superior than any other cellulose or fiberglass insulation and save big money on power bills. I would say they cut the power bills by over 50% or more.

The new houses also use Zip panels instead of house wrap which act as sheathing and breathable membrane at the same time. I also like to go around and caulk between stud walls and floor and ceiling as well as all cracks where leaks can occur. The seer rating on the A/C and heat units also make a huge difference in energy savings. In my little cabin I have a Mitsubishi Mr. Slim ductless unit and my power bill never runs over $80/month during peak times. It runs an average $45/month. The one thing I wish I had done was upgraded to more insulated windows.

 

[KLF]

That is the pain in the ass way you have to do it when there isn't a second king stud

Noted. This also explains the 4th stud in those corners. Once the corners are attached, having that extra stud flat against the sheathing gives the siding something to nail to. But wow does it make for cold corners! (Proven with the FLIR gun)

I hate cheap crap materials. build a house for generations without plastic garbage. in my area i swear the siding companies sell a 10 year product because they get work on the same house every decade from hail...Cedar siding last for decades but you have to sand and repaint after hail unless its the size of a softball. my $.02 again.

I have cedar bevel siding on my house now, and I'd never use it again. Looks nice if it's highly maintained, but all the washing and staining... ugh. I'm having the place power washed and stained (2 coats) this fall, I'm just not doing it this time. $8K.

... regarding the header was is there something really odd/crazy going on above that window? My second thought was that yes, that is a lot of material for that size opening.

Nope. That window was on the gable end of one roof, but all the windows were framed like that. Here's a different window, even narrower. Crazy.

I get the added stiffness of the sold header. We just don't get high wind or seismic loads here, and I think if you were worried about lateral stiffness, let in some metal bracing under the sheathing, it's really easy while the wall is laying down.

I live in a hot and humid climate so we tend to build to different standards than up north.

Absolutely, very different methods used in warmer climates. Spray foam is good for renovation work, but does nothing about thermal bridging. I am a YUUUGE proponent of external rigid foam, 1-1/2" to 2". Then blown tight pack cellulose in the walls.

The new houses also use Zip panels instead of house wrap which act as sheathing and breathable membrane at the same time. I also like to go around and caulk between stud walls and floor and ceiling as well as all cracks where leaks can occur.

We see a lot of Zip panel use, it's a good product. I do have to wonder how effective that membrane is after the siding is installed and has poked all the holes in it though. Same with Tyvek.

Good to hear you are doing all that caulking. I wish they had done that on my house, I'm fixing it where I can. I would insist that be done if I was having a house built, and I'm sure the framers would hate me. Like I always say "caulking is cheap, leaks aren't!"

 

[MrMikeyG]

We have to do "sill plate" caulking and corner caulking out here on exterior walls. We have a whole inspection for draft/fire stop and energy seal.

 

[MrMikeyG]

That looks like the new Henry "blue skin" house wrap too?