Flexing the 3 link (1 Viewer)

[Booger weldz]

Im not gonna argue either.

Youre essentially saying mini truck guys should keep the factory ifs stuff since its lack of articulation, binding if you will, is a superior characteristic and helpful.

Furthermore, please tell me how the factory radius arm setup would be better in desert racing.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, though it seems you're looking for one. All I'm saying is that specifically in the scenario given from the pictures above, the stock radius arm setup would likely have made the body MORE parallel to the ground plane and less tipsy. The stock bushings attempt to twist the axle tube like a giant anti-roll bar. If the front was attempting to drive up the hill on one side it's a different story since you wouldn't want to force the body into the same plane as the front axle.

If you're trying to disagree on that point then I have to say that I think you're wrong but I don't really care if we agree.

 

[jcardona1]

Good luck booger, this s***s all too common on this site. This is a predominately bolt on site, or at least the 80 series forum.

Nukegoat isn't exactly a bolt-on guy like the rest of us. He built his own 4-link

 

[Booger weldz]

Bolt on is fine, but this radius arm binding thing is hilarious. Its as if toyota somehow intentionally designed it so the truck would work better??

Good luck booger, this s***s all too common on this site. This is a predominately bolt on site, or at least the 80 series forum.

Good luck booger, this s***s all too common on this site. This is a predominately bolt on site, or at least the 80 series forum.

 

[Douglas S]

Bolt on is fine, but this radius arm binding thing is hilarious. Its as if toyota somehow intentionally designed it so the truck would work better??

How dare you question Toyota!!

Toyota isn't wrong, you are.

 

[Booger weldz]

No, hes got radius arms with seperated mounting points

Nukegoat isn't exactly a bolt-on guy like the rest of us. He built his own 4-link

 

[joker2040]

I still have the stock radius arms if that counts for anything.... Well they are no longer attached to the 80 LOL

 

[Booger weldz]

Mail them to me??

Ill cut the front eyes off at the axle end, mount an upper link, than run aisin hubs on 97 birfs with no Cclips in
frontwheel drive only with the factory PHH and headgasket. Lol

I still have the stock radius arms if that counts for anything.... Well they are no longer attached to the 80 LOL

 

[nukegoat]

Im not gonna argue either.

Youre essentially saying mini truck guys should keep the factory ifs stuff since its lack of articulation, binding if you will, is a superior characteristic and helpful.

There are occasions where a more rigid front end would be preferable. There are reasons why lots of off-road competitions incorporate anti-roll bars into their front end and don't purely seek articulation.

Furthermore, please tell me how the factory radius arm setup would be better in desert racing.

Qualify it... better than what? Better than an unbound 3-link? Cornering at speed.

You guys are thinking I'm somehow arguing that linking the front end is a bad idea. I'm not. I did it and would do it again. I don't think the radius arm set-up is great. But I'm simply stating that it changes the handling characteristics of the vehicle in ways that aren't universally better under every possible scenario. I can't believe I have to argue the point that a 3-link is a (mostly preferable) compromise and not some universal upgrade.

If I'm being frank, I still think you're looking to pick a fight.

 

[nukegoat]

Bolt on is fine, but this radius arm binding thing is hilarious. Its as if toyota somehow intentionally designed it so the truck would work better??

I'm the first to step up and say that Toyota did a bunch of stupid things that weren't because they had demigods for engineers. When I did the HG, I complained about several.

In this case, though, I think they designed it so it would convince the buyer that it wasn't a wallowy pig when they took it for a test drive on roads.

 

[Booger weldz]

The binding in the radius arms happens at the far limits of articulation. It is NEVER a factor in street driving.

If you have issues with your link setup being sloppy on the street or overly tippy offroad, its a spring rate, shock valve, roll center issue. Not a generic statement that somehow radius arms are inherently stable.

Nuke, raise your draglink and panhard at the axle end as far as possible and report back with what you find/feel.

 

[nukegoat]

The binding in the radius arms happens at the far limits of articulation. It is NEVER a factor in street driving.

If you have issues with your link setup being sloppy on the street or overly tippy offroad, its a spring rate, shock valve, roll center issue. Not a generic statement that somehow radius arms are inherently stable.

Nuke, raise your draglink and panhard at the axle end as far as possible and report back with what you find/feel.

I don't have stability problems but I'm not running much lift either. I'm still working out how to package this schroeder sway bar up front and add disconnects, though.

I'm reluctant to do much more to my front end since I don't believe my style of wheeling is going to allow the HP 8" to last much longer.

 

[Delancy]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you

Bah

Im not gonna argue either.

Humbug.

Where's Mark?

His inclusion could bring great interest to this debate and 80 chat.

I'm the first to step up and say that Toyota did a bunch of stupid things....

Yes, because a two and a half ton station wagon bodes well as a flexy rock donkey.

Damn Toyota engineers!!

Would this constitute a trailer or ramp queen?

 

[CruiseOrlando]

Yes, because a two and a half ton station wagon bodes well as a flexy rock donkey.

+1, but it obviously doesn't stop us from trying! heh.

 

[Delancy]

+1, but it obviously doesn't stop us from trying! heh.

Guilty as charged....

Radius armed, bump to bump,
2 3/4" left in the front shock and no chance the coil will dislodge.

I'm all for 3 linking the front AND rear, after she went on a hell of a diet and lost a little length.

Put her on one of those fancy trailer thingies, and it may make for a decent pic, but can't say that the trade offs warrant what capabilities may have been gained, because there ain't much further I can go, than an OE radius armed 80....if the driver prefers the soft, gentle caresses of solid limestone.

 

[Booger weldz]

Back in the late 90s quite a few pirate mini truck members snickered at a SAS on a minitruck. They stated the limited articulation of the front ifs provided a more predictable suspension offroad and the rest of us were moving backwards with 1980s solid axles and leaf springs.

Apparently they were onto something cause the SAS never caught on...

The same thing happened on a smaller scale over the years to early bronco guys and the radius arm setup. More and more people found screaming high antidive and oversteering roll axis' to be annoying on these.

The 80 has never had a real following in these regards because its a heavy pig primarily used for other things not on pavement. Thats evolved a bit and the more people stuff these down rock gardens or try to daily drive them on 4-6" coils, the stock suspensions shortcomings poke out as the factory geometry has drastically changed.

You cant increase the angle towards the chassis of the radius arm in lifting it, while leaving the panhard in the stock, very low position. You have created major oversteer and very high antidive geometry. The same goes for the rear. The low tilted roll centers(oversteer) cause the wandering and body roll. The rear high antisquat wastes propulsion forces on spring unloading.

The front 3 link presents an upper link to afford the opportunity to decrease the gigantic antidive the angled radius arms create. In the side view, you make the uppers and lowers converge in vectors intersecting at a hieght lower than Center of gravity(guesstimated at the top of the bell housing of the transmission). The longer, flatter lower links, combined with the raised panhard axle mounts reduce the oversteer angle of the roll axis and the twitchy weird steering and combined body roll feeling.

I will gladly concede to learning all of this by making mistakes. Driving linked vehicles that gave me white knuckles and terrified anyone else from driving them. Studying, and then making changes.

 

[Booger weldz]

I drive an 80 currently that is a nightmare. Its caster plates and slee springs, otherwise stock suspension pieces(besides cheap, longer shocks).

Theres an axle i built for the 9.5" front and a 3 link. It absolutely has nothing to do with wanting more articulation and everything to do with correcting the jacked up street
manners the now lifted factory suspension cant reproduce.

You can put 2" 300m torsion bars on your lifted 80 if you want. But you cant resolve the issues created in the stock parts by lifting it(even 2.5-3"). The bluetorch/welder must be lit

 

[Booger weldz]

The absolute best mod anyone could do to their lifted 80 would be to fit a high steer type arm on the passenger knuckle, wether it be a slee, billybob or welded chunk, and an accompanied raised pan hard mount.

So many issues would be resolved that have nothing to do with the steering, but everything to do with the pan hard bar relationship to the chassis geometrically.

 

[nukegoat]

+1, but it obviously doesn't stop us from trying! heh.

I thought Toyota's dumb engineering wasn't in the suspension but rather lots of other areas... the routing of the wiring harness. The exhaust routing. The little plastic box at the end of the front axle breather. etc

 

[nukegoat]

The absolute best mod anyone could do to their lifted 80 would be to fit a high steer type arm on the passenger knuckle, wether it be a slee, billybob or welded chunk, and an accompanied raised pan hard mount.

So many issues would be resolved that have nothing to do with the steering, but everything to do with the pan hard bar relationship to the chassis geometrically.

A flat panhard is great but the 80's is so long to begin with that a few inches of lift doesn't angle it that steeply, IMO. Still a good idea if you have the time and budget but I don't and it drives fine for me.

I do agree about anti-dive going bonkers with radius arms. And I'm not sure if your diatribe about old school engineering was to solicit a sense of authority on the subject or not but I am not suggesting that a 3-link is for everyone, and not because radius arms are new, old, or whatever. It's just an alternative that has pros and cons like all alternatives.

 

[LandCruisinMy93]

Hey that setup looks familiar. Welcome to the club