Builds Family haulin' (5 Viewers)

[Hojack]

Those trails are very similar to the Elkhorn mountains in NE Oregon. We elk hunted for years up there until there were just too many hunters.

Anthony Lake in the Elkhorn Mtns Oregon

 

[boots4]

After the trip and back in Oregon at some point I started having some charging issues. To get to my alternator I now have to pull my AC compressor out of the way. That's when I found one of the bolt heads for my AC mount had popped off. NOTE: this will be important later on when I get all caught up. This was not the last bolt to die here.

It's the top left bolt you can see the head popped off. I need a slim head because this area needs to clear the body of the AC compressor.

I thought it might be my resistor that I've added into the alternator plug wiring but it tested out fine and the connection was still good. This resistor is in place to get the right resistance in the signal line to the alternator which causes it to excite.

Took the alternator in for replacement and was told this was the last time they'd honor the warranty. Can't blame them, I think I've replaced 4 on that warranty so I got my money's worth out of it.

New alternator installed and doing well.

 

[boots4]

Let's see, some other casualties. Finally blew through a set of motor mounts. There was a lot of twisting on the Dusy so at least one of them died there. I knew one was bad when I got home but I ordered two to replace them both just in case. When I actually got the old ones out they were both shot.

I've had problems with my boost gauge line for my big turbo getting brittle from the heat in that area right underneath the manifold and cracking causing boost leaks with no gauge readings. I've replaced the line a time or two before. I thought I'd try extending the line with a hard tube to get it away from the heat. This was the only thing I found at the Home Depot when I was down in CA. After the Dusy trip the copper tube cracked. I was originally trying to get the boost signal as close as to the outlet I could.

Luckily I was able to wedge a flat blade in the hole and had enough bite to back out the broken piece. I took the cover off and did this outside of the truck.

I patched it with a plug and relocated the port further away from the manifold heat. It's been holding up better in this location.

The small turbo inlet elbow had formed a crack too.

I trimmed off that piece and ran it for a while. I eventually made a tight 90 in metal to replace the 90 boot. I don't have a pic of that though.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

getting that insert out probably used up all of your good karma for pretty much the rest of your life... worth it, but no need to play the lotto anymore

 

[Hojack]

I dig the easy out Mike

 

[boots4]

I felt like I was having some low power issues right off idle. It felt like it was dogging down until the turbos would light and then it would take off. This made jumping out into traffic hard to do, even pulling away from stop signs started to suck. I played with fueling and too much would be too smokey, too little and it wouldn't get out of it's own way. I was also seeing a big drop in mileage so I figured it was time to finally re-gear. NOTE: Ultimately this has ended up being a couple of things but at the time I thought the best direction was to regear since I stepped up to 40" tires.

4.10s and 37s in my set up was a really good compromise for the way I use it but 4.10s and 40s didn't seem to cut it. Debating on what ratio to step up too I ran several comparisons through the online gearing calculators and ended up going a little deeper to 4.88s. I figured a little deeper would be better for bigger, heavier tires as well as better for towing. I found 4.88s in a thick version that allowed me to use that ratio with a 4.10 and down carrier. I picked up a master install kit and I ended up doing the 14 bolt myself. I read the 14bolt Bible on Pirate4x4 a couple of times and followed it during my install.

To get the pinon nut off leverage was my friend but my bench vice was hating life.

The 14 bolt has adjustable collars like the Toyota stuff so this made it easier to do myself.

Having a press made this doable at home. I'm pressing out the pinion from it's carrier.

I had to get a little creative for the ring gear carrier bearings. The press also started flexing too much and I tweaked the lower adjustable mount along with the upper mount driven down by the jack. I fabbed and welded up new pieces for both of these parts that are stronger and kept going.

Got the ring gear off the carrier. It required some persuasion as expected but came off nicely.

I pulled the carrier apart and cleaned everything up. All gears looked good and got reinstalled. If I were going to use a detroit locker it would go inside this housing. I'd really love to set up a selectable for the rear one day but this wasn't that day.

Had another round with lady luck and got the patterned nailed and backlash right on the first try. I was very happy since it had been a long day just getting that far. The 14 bolt was definitely easier for me than doing the set up on my front dana 60.

I did the standard initial gear break in and swapped out the diff oil. Being armed with the gearing calculator numbers I drove it to work for a week. First off, while it did take off easier I still had this dogging feeling that I though gearing would solve. Second, my highway rpm was about 200 rpm higher than expected which doesn't sound like much but makes a difference in a cummins diesel, and Third I expected a drop in tranny temps and I saw only a minimal temperature reduction. I also thought it might improve my hazing since it would theoretically take less engine effort to get going from a stop but the gears didn't seem to do much for that either. Being honest I was a little bummed with the results.

At this point the highway rpm was bugging me the most so I thought I'd throw some money at a lock up solenoid in my tranny. Maybe that part was having problems and allowing the lock up to slip which would create more heat and require more rpms to sustain higher speed.

I pick up a new unit, swapped it in but saw no difference in operation.

 

[boots4]

To finish up my direction with gears I decided to drop down to 4.56s. I had not installed the front set so I returned those and got some 4.56s for the front coming as well. Doing some more math 4.56 and 40s are just a tiny bit deeper than 4.10s and 37s. Since I liked the 4.10 and 37 combo with my set up I decided to aim more for that. Since I do a decent about of highway travel I wanted to get my higher speed rpms to drop back down some.

Pinion comparison from left to right: 4.10 (11 tooth), 4.56 (9 tooth), 4.88 (8 tooth)

Ring gear comparison from left to right: 4.10, 4.56 (thick version), 4.88 (thick version)

I was going to try and reuse the pressed on pinion bearing but I destroyed it so I pick up a new timken one (HM803149)

Lady luck did not visit this time and I spent more time playing with different shims under the pinon and settings on the carrier. It wasn't as good as the last set up but this was the best I could get. Backlash wasn't in the middle of the range either but it is just within tolerance set on the looser side. Interesting how different gears set up differently.

I did the break in on these gears too and swapped fluid again. Highway rpms came down a little but were still higher than what the gearing calculator indicated they should be. Low end power still felt lame. At this point I started researching other culprits and started to question my torque converter.

 

[boots4]

As I continued to play with fuel settings I swapped in my other set of injectors to see about hazing. I was running my 5x12 SAC set and swapped in my 5x12 VCO set. I run both sets with the thinnest sealing washer (.020"). For the same fuel settings I notice midrange seems a little stronger with the SAC tips. Switching to the VCO tips didn't change the haze much.

I talked to some locals who recommended a shop for my injection pump. I wanted to take it in to check or get calibrated since I figured the parts mix was causing some issue my tuning wasn't able to solve so I pulled it off and took it in. I talked with the owner after he tested it and he said it was doing great fueling and not cutting out at higher rpms like he expected so my injection pump health is great. He did say it was getting into fuel quicker so with that I played with my AFC spring tension and even added a little more shim to my KSB system (to delay adding dynamic timing). He also suggested that I might be running too much lift pump pressure. He said he tests the pumps at zero lift pump pressure so his thought was that me feeding the IP more pressure was advancing the dynamic timing too quickly, that's why I added a little more shim to the KSB unit. I also snipped a little more spring in my lift pump to drop it down to 7-8 psi from 10-11 psi feed pressure. But those things didn't change the haze much either. So I continued to turn it down one week and then turn it back up the next week.

They reset the timing and it was harder to start. I checked the timing myself and saw it at .050" (1.27mm). My data plate says 1.25mm is stock which from my understanding it about 12.5 degrees.

I knowing I'm running more fuel and knowing that more fuel needs more time to burn I bump it up to .060" (1.52mm) which I estimate is in the 15 degree range. It starts better for me now. Seems like my set up likes to be in the 15-17 degree range for static timing.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

how does the engine oil look? are you getting a lot of sooting of the oil? how viscous is the oil?
I can't imagine (though I'm not expert) how 7-12 psi could affect pump pressure, especially since the injector isn't going to release before the right pressure is reached.
I see you've done static timing, but how long does the injector stay open? on the detroit diesel (which uses the same principles with the high pressure pump), higher pressure doesn't matter but how long it keeps adding fuel does matter. It almost sounds like the only adjusted the static timing and not the time the pump maintains that pressure to the injector.... for example, say 'stock' on a 6.2 is 10* of spray for each power stroke (opens at 2 degrees BTC, closes at 8* ATDC). but adjusting the pressure screw inside the pump, you can add more fuel by raising the pressure and it continues to spray from 2 degrees BTC to 10 degrees ATDC (which has the effect of keeping it spraying, longer). It adds more fuel but your issue seems they didn't adjust this - they only adjusted the time it opens. You can ask them, but the biggest tell they didn't is if you brought the rig to them hot, they adjusted it, then sent you on its way. Diesel mechanics usually won't adjust the pressure allen screw in the pump unless everything is stone cold. Problem when it's warm is they may not get the pump to seal when they put it back together.
I've made this mistake, so I ask - did you do an actual tire dimension based upon the radius to the ground from the center of the hub? I hate even asking the question because it's so simple, but again.... experience.
I should quickly add, though, hazing is far better then too high EGT.... speaking of which - what are they?

 

[boots4]

For the VE Injection Pump there are a couple of things going on. There is an internal vane pump that deals with the case pressure and a high pressure piston that takes it to injector level pressure. With the cummins applications there is an additional lift pump outside of the IP that runs off a cam lobe that provides pressure in front of the vane pump. This same design is used in the VW world but they don't have a lift pump, they just rely on the internal vane pump to get fuel from the tank to the IP. There is static timing and then a timing advance device they call dynamic timing (an eternal device called the KSB can advance timing as a cold starting aid for emissions) that adds additional timing above the static setting as rpms build. For fueling it's all about the slip/slide collar on the high pressure piston that bleeds fuel from going to the injector lines. The internal governor with all it's levers and springs affect this and the full power screw and throttle arm all connect to the governor. Basically the longer the slip collar covers the bleed port on the high pressure piston the more fuel gets to the injectors, the sooner the collar uncovers the bleed port that's when fuel pressure stops going to the injector lines and the springs in the injector tips close the needle in the tip and stops fuel spraying in to the cylinder.

Timing advance (dynamic timing) works off of pressure. There are different paths after the pump inlet that go to the vane pump and the dynamic timing device. This is how more pump inlet pressure (provided by the lift pump) can affect timing advance. The shop suggested leaving that alone (which can be adjusted with shim thickness in the dynamic timing device) and reducing pump inlet pressure by lowering the pressure produced by the lift pump. I was able to do that by clipping some of the coil on the internal spring in my lift pump since that spring tension regulates the pressure it produces.

The shop likes to run these pumps in the 14 degrees static timing range but when I tested it myself it looks like they set it basically back to stock, so I set it back to the range I've found works best in my set up over the passed several years. The main question I wanted to answer from the shop was if the two pumps I merged together are working. His opinion is that they were, that it was fueling well and not cutting out at higher pump rpm meaning I'm able to provide plenty of fueling for the compound turbos I'm running. There are some internal spacers/washers that I question if the thickness was right and maybe causing fueling issues but he seemed to think it was fine. This shop does tons of these kind of pumps and he has the right testing equipment. For testing I did pull the pump from my engine and take it down to him to run on this test stand. He was willing to answer a bunch of questions I had and did not charge me for testing which was very nice of him.

For tires I did adjust to true sizes in the gearing calculator to see different results. Even with a couple of different size variations the actual engine rpm wasn't close to the calculated rpm.

For EGTs, around that time it was 8-900F cruising and 12-1350F for full throttle attacks. If a fueling adjustment broke into the 1400F range I would back off the throttle and adjusted a little fuel out of it on my next round of adjustments.

For the power I'm finding I like, running a mechanical diesel I don't believe I'll ever clean up the tail pipe completely. For me some haze is acceptable so I'm really just being picky. If there is some setting combo that is just right, I'll still play around to get there, gives me a challenge to figure out.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

6.2 uses a lift pump, 6.5 uses an electric lift pump... and the rest is basically the same concept until you get to the turbo 6.5 - that uses an electronic control to boost reference.
You could cure the haze as GM did.... added a cat... not that I recommend that silliness, but it did clean up the tailpipe at the lost of 50% of the power (okay maybe I exaggerate a bit)... with the 6.5 in my Suburban I only haze at WOT (and a miracle - the cat fell off, it was terrible it raping Mother Nature like that). Fun fact, the turbo upgrade for a 6.5 is the stock 5.7 Cummins turbo... the 6.5 isn't powerful, but they are adequate....
all that said, haze is better then high EGTs.... I figure I'm good if the haze is only at WOT (which it is).

 

[Pacer]

Awaiting your updates eagerly. It sounds like you are working your way towards replacing your torque converter.
I was hoping you found a silver bullet for the pump, as mine is slightly down on power. Used to have a much snappier throttle and faster spool, now it's doggin a little bit.

 

[boots4]

To add to the bigger picture, while I was running the Dusy I saw engine oil cover my passenger side frame rail. After some investigation I determined it had to come from one of my turbo's somehow. I determined it was the big turbo and pulled it out and tore it apart. I've done this enough now that it's not a scary thing.

When I dug into the turbine side I was able to see that oil was getting passed the exhaust side oil seal and that I was getting some coking happening. I've been turning off my engine when EGT temps hit 400F or less and it's been taking longer to cool down to that temp even in the colder temps of winter. (the longer cool down is important for a different issue I believe that I'm currently fixing now)

After a couple of wrong rebuild kits send to me I ponied up for a much better quality kit for my HE351VGT. This one had bearings with a better oil channel. In the below pic the old ones are on top and didn't show any real wear. The new style is on bottom where you can see better oil flow potential.

Did some research on "stepped" seals and also wanted to try those out. The idea is that these will create a better seal. This kit came with them.

What I think was a contributor to the coking and especially the oil leak on the trail was how I had the turbo drains routed. The small turbo sits up high from the block drain port but the big turbo sits lower and the drain hose had much less slope on it. I think that as I get into steeper side angles tilting passenger side on the trail the turbo oil drains essentially get blocked. So with a liquid resistance plug on the drain (engine oil pooled to that side) and the engine oil pressure feeding the top of the turbo the pressure found whatever way it could out of the system and I think that was passed the oil seals. Running with this thought I decided to separate the oil drains for my turbo's. This meant adding a new port for oil to drain since there is only one on a 4bt block. I picked up a 16AN bung, 90 fitting, and hose to make another drain. Wished I could have placed the bung further forward on the oil pan to better clear the oil sump but due to engine mounts and other stuff this was as far forward on the oil pan I could get it.

Test fit and set up my hose.

For this round I put the big turbo on the new drain port and routed the small turbo to the old drain port. This gave me some vertical run on both drains.

After the rebuild I noticed an improvement on the hazing, not as much as I wanted, but an improvement. This was at least a contributor to it. It didn't do anything for the lame take off though.

 

[mr jits]

It's been a long time since I read about the 4l80 and compushift installation, but did you use a stock, used torque converter?
It's probably time to get one suited to your RPM range and power curve.

 

[Kief]

A stock 2f has a baffle for the oil built into the oil pan and the 4bt has none. I wonder if there would be a benefit in off camber or steep scenarios.. as high as the crank sits the only issue for clearance would be the pick up tube... I can only imagine how much power that has vs. my stock 4bt

 

[boots4]

... did you use a stock, used torque converter?
It's probably time to get one suited to your RPM range and power curve.

Original torque converter was a new factory GM diesel converter that ended up stalling too high. I had it modified to stall lower and ran that for many years.

You are on the right thought path.

 

[boots4]

... a baffle for the oil built into the oil pan

I didn't think of that. I'll have to dig into that and see where it goes.

 

[mr jits]

Maybe one of the multi-clutch converters from monster transmission? I'm pretty sure they have a lifetime warranty, kind of spendy though.
Do you have manual lock-up on your transmission? What gears do you lock up in if you do?

 

[boots4]

@mr jits I am almost there in my thread updates. Theses are all thoughts I'll answer, soon I hope.

 

[boots4]

Somewhere in here during all my timing tests I had to replace the TDC pin. Not bad, only the second one I've had to replace over the last 12 years.

Odometer turned passed the 300K mark. (Really there's quite a bit more on that due to the tire/gearing differences.) I should be close to 90-100K on this build now. But really, at this point mileage doesn't mean much anymore.

I also played with some new LED headlight bulbs. My old ones still worked fine but the new ones take bulb placement into consideration to help them work better in housings designed for Halogen bulbs. Old on the left, new on the right.

They have cut offs for low beam use.

They are still plug 'n play but there is a box in the line in the new ones.

I did not go high end and sorted through a bunch of mid grade options on Amazon. The new bulbs work much better in the Hella housings I have. The old ones where bright but there was not a great cut off and I had them aimed down pretty good to keep the spread from being too annoying to other drivers. High beam didn't really seem to make a lighting difference. The new bulbs use the housing much better and there is a clear cut off now on low beams. High beams also make a real difference now. Overall they are not quite as bright in low beams but are brighter in high beams. I was able to aim the housings up a little higher now for better light spread. Definitely like the new style much better.