Engine knocking after overheat

[ajax1]

Thanks, that's about what I thought. My '93 has PAIR etc, but that can all stay on the truck. I knew about the extra sensors, but like you said it's harder to go back in time than to have sensors I don't need. My only problem is that Cometic head gaskets say they're only for '95 and up and that's making me question if the differences are more substantial.



I figured the 2nd engine would get all the same PM type work that my current one needs, minus whatever bottom end work mine might need. The added cost of the used engine would be offset by not tearing into the bottom end and the time saved which would be substantial. Doesn't the engine have to be out before I start pulling bearing caps and bearings? At that point I just want to drop a new one in.

I haven't progressed on my diagnostic all week, because I was dealing with my new daily driver (a borrowed 2001 Honda Accord with a dead battery and starter). It took me until Thursday to get that car reliable enough to trust, but I don't mind fixing it up a bit if I'm driving it around for free. It had been sitting almost 6 months when I picked it up. I can't look that gift horse in the mouth, but driving it does motivate me to fix the truck.

I'm going to run it this afternoon to move it into the garage. I'll take a video of the sound. Once in the shop, I'll pull the plugs and start taking a closer look. I'll let y'all know what I find. Thanks again for all the help and patience.

Use a oem headgasket

 

[K Dub]

Didn't get much accomplished today, between chasing the kid around and working on home IT stuff the time just slipped away. I did get outside and fire it up for the first time in 6 days and record some video.

First clip is the cold start, after sitting for a week.



My neighbor came over and we looked into the abyss for a few minutes. The truck got up operating temp and we tinkered around. I recorded this second clip afterward and the knock remains at idle now.



I've now made the problem worse and am no closer to diagnosis. I'm getting a bit discouraged.

 

[Pin_Head]

Sounds strange, the second video is more like a rod knock because it does it at idle. Drain the oil and see what you find. Cut open the oil filter too.

 

[baldilocks]

BTW..get a real temp gauge when this is all said and done. The stock gauge fluctuates between 165- 215F and the needle doesn't budge. You are a few degree from knocking on danger zone, and in reality you think your engine temp is fine. My all alum. radiator spikes to 195 F or so at the top of the grapevine fully loaded with 4 people and full armors in summer heat- stock gauge sits dead middle, while before i upgrade my radiator, my aftermarket gauge hits 215 plus at the top of the same climb and stock gauge sits dead in the center......

I’ve watched my Koso gauge hang at 215-219 for miles and miles in summer heat with the CSF radiator. I figured that things could be better but Toyota set the AC up to cut off at 226 so..... I noticed that my stock gauge begins to move upward right about 226. Yeah, been there done that.

I haven’t had the opportunity to put my new OEM radiator to as serious of a test.

 

[maxamillion2345]

You’ll probably get lit up a little doing this but pull plug wires as its running and knocking. one by one, putting them back as you go. If you pull a wire and the knock goes away theres the culprit.

Sounds like rod knock to me bud, sorry. I’d still want to be sure before moving forward though...

 

[SmokingRocks]

You can use a engine from 93 to 97, for the 95 and up to work you’ll keep your intakes and exhaust, you can swap your oil pans or not be a couple extra sensors on 95 up. It is way harder going 93 94 to 95 and up

Unless you want to buy and swap out the ecu, AFM to MAF and then the A442F trans in your rig has its own ECU where as the 95-97 A343 has the trans computer integrated in the ECU. So I have no idea where to start on that one... I do know that the A442F trans computer gets inputs from the OBD1 ECU. So if you swap to a 95-97 engine you might need the trans, ECU, MAF sensor various connections etc.

Additionally depending on what your states emissions laws are you may need an inspection certificate from the DMV for registration.

These engines are pretty basic, robust and easy to repair. I would stick with what you've got and diagnose the issue.

Here is a link to the FSM. I had only done power steering racks before my engine blew it's HG, with the FSM I completed the rebuild myself.

 

[K Dub]

Made a little progress this evening, but no good news. I've ordered up a Blackstone Labs kit and a cheapo USB borescope that should be here tomorrow. I drained the oil and captured a mason jar worth after about 30 seconds. I'll transfer some of this to Blackstone once my sample kit arrives, but what I could see with the naked eye was discouraging.

There's a bit of glitter in there. Two prominent flakes are at 1:00 and 4:00 within the innermost circle in the pic above, but if you look closely in the sunlight it's all pretty sparkly. So there's that. My spark plug socket is too thick to go into the well (that's what she said), so tomorrow I'll get into the top and we'll take a look inside the cylinders. I'm trying to track down a pressure tester, maybe even a compressor and a leak down tester. I don't know how much hope I should hold out for the head gasket.

I'm starting to understand how to do bearing work on the car instead of pulling the engine. At first I couldn't imagine it with the axle and suspension in the way, but underneath today I figured with the pans gone I could get in there. I guess if the head is coming off too, then I might as well pull the engine?

Everything makes enough sense in my head, and I can visualize the procedures in the FSM. But when I get out there to work I end up spending all night on the front bolt on the rear plug cover, with that darn hard line to the throttle body right above it. And then my spark plug socket doesn't fit. I can do this, but it might take me a decade...

 

[Firerunner]

If you pull the engine, it's a great time to deal with your PHH, and you might as well do the rear main seal at the same time.

But, it would probably be quicker to do the mains with the block in the car. That glitter looks like bearings to me, but there will be plenty of folks who know more than me coming along soon.

 

[SmokingRocks]

You can cut open your oil filter and see if there is metal in it. If there is then you saved yourself the $25 for a Blackstone test that you can now put towards new oem races.

I suspect the engine was ran way low on oil at some point. Typically overheating alone won’t cause this, unless you rode it to the ragged edge.

 

[SmokingRocks]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck...

I'd prepare for an engine out rebuild. You can see a list of parts on my build thread here. The highlighted items are what the engine needed, everything else were "its easier to do without the engine in" upgrades. I sent my engine off to a local reputable machine shop, they bored the block over, decked the head and block, ground the valve seats, balanced the crankshaft and provided OEM races so that's what that cost includes.

 

[ajax1]

O

Unless you want to buy and swap out the ecu, AFM to MAF and then the A442F trans in your rig has its own ECU where as the 95-97 A343 has the trans computer integrated in the ECU. So I have no idea where to start on that one... I do know that the A442F trans computer gets inputs from the OBD1 ECU. So if you swap to a 95-97 engine you might need the trans, ECU, MAF sensor various connections etc.

Additionally depending on what your states emissions laws are you may need an inspection certificate from the DMV for registration.

These engines are pretty basic, robust and easy to repair. I would stick with what you've got and diagnose the issue.

Here is a link to the FSM. I had only done power steering racks before my engine blew it's HG, with the FSM I completed the rebuild myself.

Yes you will keep your vaf and not the maf . I needed no inspection or anything like that I don’t know why you would, went with engine out 97 to my truck which is 94 keep all the accessories on the 94 swap over to the 97

 

[SmokingRocks]

Yes you will keep your vaf and not the maf, went with engine out 97 to my truck which is 94 keep all the accessories on the 94 swap over to the 97

I know they are almost identical but there are some minor differences IIRC as far as sensors and connectors between the OBD1 and OBD 2 Engines. So you just used the block from an obd2 cruiser and I assume reused all the sensors from the engine you tossed? That make sense and would work.

I needed no inspection or anything like that I don’t know why you would

No one would be the wiser as long as it passes the visual and rolling emissions inspections (if applicable in your area). Here in CO if you were to put a 95-97 engine in a 93-94 you would also need to transfer the PAIR system (not sure if there are others) onto the new engine or you will fail inspection. They will tell you that you need to provide a certain pre-inspection form, this is because they calibrate their emissions test based on vehicle body/chassis or engine, whichever is newest.

My PAIR system has been removed because my O2 sensors live in those bungs. I have the factory 95-97 coolant bypass line that replaced the one on the 93-94 that jogs around the PAIR actuator so it looked stock AF, tried to get it on the rollers but they called that out and failed it on visual.

 

[ajax1]

I live in Colorado also , and also have removed pair and have o2s In manifold, no vacuum lines except for 2 one to the FPS and one to tps, egr is on there for looks. I live western slope no emissions

I know they are almost identical but there are some minor differences IIRC as far as sensors and connectors between the OBD1 and OBD 2 Engines. So you just used the block from an obd2 cruiser and I assume reused all the sensors from the engine you tossed? That make sense and would work.


No one would be the wiser as long as it passes the visual and rolling emissions inspections (if applicable in your area). Here in CO if you were to put a 95-97 engine in a 93-94 you would also need to transfer the PAIR system (not sure if there are others) onto the new engine or you will fail inspection. They will tell you that you need to provide a certain pre-inspection form, this is because they calibrate their emissions test based on vehicle body/chassis or engine, whichever is newest.

My PAIR system has been removed because my O2 sensors live in those bungs. I have the factory 95-97 coolant bypass line that replaced the one on the 93-94 that jogs around the PAIR actuator so it looked stock AF, tried to get it on the rollers but they called that out and failed it on visual.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Yea unfortunately in CO it varies widely between counties, even between the inspection centers within the county and even between the inspectors at the centers. I miss living in Alamosa county, for this reason, now I'm up on the front range where all the counties are sticklers. I just ran the rollers last Friday and I watched 5 inspectors check out my engine bay with flashlights and mirrors.

I put my pair back on for looks and ran two hoses from it to the passenger side footwell which was enough to get past them... IMO visual inspection is ridiculous if it passes the sniff test then what difference does it make?

 

[K Dub]

Growing up in Colorado, the Gilpin/Boulder county line ran through our property. We kept our cars registered in Gilpin for obvious reasons.

Update coming later. Plugs are out, and a borescope just showed up to take a look inside. Keep your fingers crossed that I don't need honing or pistons. I'd really like keep the to-do list limited to new bearings, head gasket, valve stems and seats, and all new cooling system. As much as I wanted to swap engines, I can't seem to find one nearby so I'm forging ahead on the assumption I'll be rebuilding this old lump.

Stay tuned. And say high to the Rockies for me, I miss them every day.

 

[K Dub]

Can I use my crappy little tire inflator pump for a pressure tester, or do I need a grown up compressor.

 

[SmokingRocks]

what pressure testing are you considering? Leak down? In theory you could use an electric tire inflator for that, but you really want something with a pressure cuttoff switch.

 

[K Dub]

OReilly has a "compression tester" with spark plug threads on one side, a pneumatic coupler on the other, and a PSI gauge in the middle. They do not stock a "leak down tester." I, for one, don't really get the difference. What's more, I'm probably doing the head gasket regardless, so it doesn't even matter. I was just asking about their inventory of loaner tools this morning and that's what they said.

 

[SmokingRocks]

A compression test will only tell you what PSI your cylinders are making under compression, it does not tell you where it is leaking from. The test is performed by putting a pressure gauge that has a max psi hold indicator in the spark plug hole then you crank the engine over 3-5 times. The high reading is the compression test result. This helps identify the health of the engine but little else.

A leak down test is done with the piston at TDC (top dead center) with both valves closed. An air line is threaded into the spark plug hole and pressure is applied to the cylinder through this. From this test you can determine if the exhaust valves are leaking by putting a rubber glove over the exhaust to see if it inflates. Or you can do the same on the intake to see if the glove inflates, likewise you can do this from the oil fill cap.

1. If air is escaping out the exhaust then you have leaky exhaust valves.
2. If air is escaping out the intake you have leaky intake valves.
3. If air is escaping out the coolant overflow you have a bad head gasket.
4. If air is escaping out the crank case you have worn rings

 

[K Dub]

I think I can skip all that. Here's what I found in Cylinder #4.

Did a bunch of other stuff tonight, but not enough. I need to get organized. This isn't going to get fixed in 2-3hr a night increments.

I need to sleep on this.