Diagnose knock in 2LTE (2 Viewers)

[SNLC]

Look at my sig. I own a LWB truck with a 1PZ. This is a concept us PZJ77 owners are more familiar with then just about any other Cruiserheads. The PZJ77 is in the running for the most under powered Land Cruiser of all time.

Nah!

Maybe in an LWB, that is a heavy truck. In my SWB, it has decent power. The thing people always seem to forget or look past is diff gearing. Diff gearing plays a HUGE part in how much power it feels like a truck has.

Case in point: My PZJ70 has 4.56 diff gears. It doesn't feel like it lacks power. It is no speed demon but it is also no turtle. Off the line around town, it feels just fine. Merging onto the freeway, it is just fine there too. Out on the HWY, I am a touch slower than the traffic around me but that is fine too. Country mountain roads, no probs holding 55-65mph. I will drop down to 3rd or 4th on the long steep grades and be in the slow lane but that is short lived and only up the passes. When asked how it feels, I say it feels a lot like a mini truck with a 22RE.

Another case in point: Did a 6L v8 swap into a buddies LX450 a year ago. 400+ hp. He went to 35's at the same time. Gear are stock, 4.11's. Tons of power but does feel a touch sluggish, most people would not notice at all. When you are familiar with v8's and swaps though you notice. This is all due to diff gears, if we went to 4.88's in his truck it would not feel like this at all.

Diff gears matter in relation to how powerful the truck feels and it is not just something to change if you go bigger tires. That is the main reason of course but Toyota put a wide range of gears in these trucks. My truck for example was sent to a market where top speeds are maybe 90kms an hour. The country is mountainous and rugged, so Toyota sent trucks there with a deeper diff gearing.


I get a lot of emails from people looking for 70-series or non-US spec trucks. When I got into this game I knew all Cruisers well besides 70-series. Years ago in Panama @Tapage schooled me a bit on the Prados. A buddy had one and we chatted about it with Tapage who has been around these trucks his whole life. Any ways, he was not into them and pointed out they are not "real" Land Cruisers. So when I got into the 70-series game I was not interested or looking at Prados. Thing is I would say 20-30% of all inquires I get are for Prados. People like them here in the states, my feeling is because they are coil sprung all around and the 4-door is common. A buddy in Latin America has a SWB Prado that is lifted and has had some motor work done to it. I have riden around in it with him a bunch. The trucks have grown on me. One of the cool things about them is that the mini-truck/Hilux shares so much in the drivetrain with these trucks. There is a HUGE aftermarket support for mini trucks. So that means you can buy A LOT of very cool gear for a Prado here in the states.

Personally, I would like to build a LHD 77 out of a LHD Prado or better yet a (mini) 76 wagon. Just the front clip is what I mean. That and drop a different engine + trans in one. Like the 1UZ or a 1HZ or even a 1HDT. The Cummins R2.8 would also go real nice into one. Any ways, it is on my list of builds I would like to do someday.


Cheers

 

[44Runner]

Nah!

Maybe in an LWB, that is a heavy truck. In my SWB, it has decent power. The thing people always seem to forget or look past is diff gearing. Diff gearing plays a HUGE part in how much power it feels like a truck has.

Case in point: My PZJ70 has 4.56 diff gears. It doesn't feel like it lacks power. It is no speed demon but it is also no turtle. Off the line around town, it feels just fine. Merging onto the freeway, it is just fine there too. Out on the HWY, I am a touch slower than the traffic around me but that is fine too. Country mountain roads, no probs holding 55-65mph. I will drop down to 3rd or 4th on the long steep grades and be in the slow lane but that is short lived and only up the passes. When asked how it feels, I say it feels a lot like a mini truck with a 22RE.

Another case in point: Did a 6L v8 swap into a buddies LX450 a year ago. 400+ hp. He went to 35's at the same time. Gear are stock, 4.11's. Tons of power but does feel a touch sluggish, most people would not notice at all. When you are familiar with v8's and swaps though you notice. This is all due to diff gears, if we went to 4.88's in his truck it would not feel like this at all.

Diff gears matter in relation to how powerful the truck feels and it is not just something to change if you go bigger tires. That is the main reason of course but Toyota put a wide range of gears in these trucks. My truck for example was sent to a market where top speeds are maybe 90kms an hour. The country is mountainous and rugged, so Toyota sent trucks there with a deeper diff gearing.


I get a lot of emails from people looking for 70-series or non-US spec trucks. When I got into this game I knew all Cruisers well besides 70-series. Years ago in Panama @Tapage schooled me a bit on the Prados. A buddy had one and we chatted about it with Tapage who has been around these trucks his whole life. Any ways, he was not into them and pointed out they are not "real" Land Cruisers. So when I got into the 70-series game I was not interested or looking at Prados. Thing is I would say 20-30% of all inquires I get are for Prados. People like them here in the states, my feeling is because they are coil sprung all around and the 4-door is common. A buddy in Latin America has a SWB Prado that is lifted and has had some motor work done to it. I have riden around in it with him a bunch. The trucks have grown on me. One of the cool things about them is that the mini-truck/Hilux shares so much in the drivetrain with these trucks. There is a HUGE aftermarket support for mini trucks. So that means you can buy A LOT of very cool gear for a Prado here in the states.

Personally, I would like to build a LHD 77 out of a LHD Prado or better yet a (mini) 76 wagon. Just the front clip is what I mean. That and drop a different engine + trans in one. Like the 1UZ or a 1HZ or even a 1HDT. The Cummins R2.8 would also go real nice into one. Any ways, it is on my list of builds I would like to do someday.


Cheers

K084 I have 4.11s. I wish I had 4.56s!

The last 4Runner I built I swapped out the 4.10s with the factory 4.30s diffs from my buggy to help a little bit without spending any money. It did alright with the 3.slow and 33s. The 4Runner I built before that had 4.56s because it had a Dana 44 front and that was a ratio they share. It also had power to spare and was running 35s.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

...he was not into them and pointed out they are not "real" Land Cruisers.

One of the cool things about them is that the mini-truck/Hilux shares so much in the drivetrain with these trucks.

Cheers

I've heard people say this a number of times, but I've never really understood it. Have you spent any time working on the 70 series Prados? Currently I own both an LJ78 and an LN130, and they are very different indeed.

The 70 series Prado's are way more Landcruiser than they are Hilux. I think about the only thing the same are the engines. Everything else is either from the heavy duty landcruiser lines (70/80/100 series parts), or unique to the 70 series Prado. I suppose you could say the A343F and R150F are used in the Hilux, but they're also used in heavy duty land cruisers, so not much argument there. In fact, the 70 series Prado one is more Landcruiser-ish, as it has the heavy duty split transfer case attached.

If not for the engine, I think the 70 series Prado's would be one of the favorite cruisers out there. Everything else about them is great. Personally I'm fine with the engine devaluing the vehicle. Made it more affordable for me to buy one, and I love modifying and improving engines.

Work a 1HZ or 1PZ turbo engine hard (towing) and it'll crack it's head too (lots of sad stories from Aus on this). And like wise, the normally aspirated L series don't crack heads. At the end of the day, turbo+IDI+heavy load just don't mix. There are many examples of this from the GM 6.5 TD to the Mitsubishi Delica motors. Even the VW IDI turbo diesel heads crack; it's just there is no coolant gallery there, so it doesn't matter as much. It's just where the technology was in the late 80's and early 90's.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

I wonder if there is a Land Rover forum where the Defender guys poke fun at the Range Rover guys for not having a real Land Rover.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

I wonder if there is a Land Rover forum where the Defender guys poke fun at the Range Rover guys for not having a real Land Rover.

I'd say that is not the same technical comparison as between a HZJ77 and an LJ78. Perhaps an HZJ77 to a KZJ95 (the next gen Prado that was a whole different platform).

However, there are probably similar entitlement issues common to both the Defender and heavy duty 70 series owners.

I think some of the heavy duty 70 series owners want to feel that have something far superior for all the extra money they spent though....

 

[Gun Runner 5]

If the Cruiser you drive makes you happy and meets your needs than its the "ultimate" Land Cruiser. I wouldn't pay much attention to the noise generated by the peanut gallery.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

If the Cruiser you drive makes you happy and meets your needs than its the "ultimate" Land Cruiser. I wouldn't pay much attention to the noise generated by the peanut gallery.

I agree. However I don't like people spreading misinformation about the technical specifications of the various cruisers.

 

[44Runner]

I've heard people say this a number of times, but I've never really understood it. Have you spent any time working on the 70 series Prados? Currently I own both an LJ78 and an LN130, and they are very different indeed.

The 70 series Prado's are way more Landcruiser than they are Hilux. I think about the only thing the same are the engines. Everything else is either from the heavy duty landcruiser lines (70/80/100 series parts), or unique to the 70 series Prado. I suppose you could say the A343F and R150F are used in the Hilux, but they're also used in heavy duty land cruisers, so not much argument there. In fact, the 70 series Prado one is more Landcruiser-ish, as it has the heavy duty split transfer case attached.

If not for the engine, I think the 70 series Prado's would be one of the favorite cruisers out there. Everything else about them is great. Personally I'm fine with the engine devaluing the vehicle. Made it more affordable for me to buy one, and I love modifying and improving engines.

Work a 1HZ or 1PZ turbo engine hard (towing) and it'll crack it's head too (lots of sad stories from Aus on this). And like wise, the normally aspirated L series don't crack heads. At the end of the day, turbo+IDI+heavy load just don't mix. There are many examples of this from the GM 6.5 TD to the Mitsubishi Delica motors. Even the VW IDI turbo diesel heads crack; it's just there is no coolant gallery there, so it doesn't matter as much. It's just where the technology was in the late 80's and early 90's.

I think the big thing is actually the lighter duty rear axle and no availability for the front locker. The availability of a full floating 9.5" rear and front and rear selectable lockers is a big deal for the PZJs and HZJs.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

I think the big thing is actually the lighter duty rear axle and no availability for the front locker. The availability of a full floating 9.5" rear and front and rear selectable lockers is a big deal for the PZJs and HZJs.

Sure, but that doesn't make it a mini-truck drive train!

 

[Nas90tdi]

I am prefacing the following statements with this. This is just an interesting debate to me, so don't take this as an invitation to start a war. I actually do think it's a very interesting topic. And, don't actually care in any meaningful way except as a conversation topic.
So is the Land Rover one, of which I am intimately familiar with, but that's for another day.


So, if a Land Cruiser doesn't have a F/F front and rear axle, and selectable lockers it isn't a "real" Land Cruiser?
I occurs to me that a lot of people on this very forum are going to be deeply upset when they find out they don't have a "real" Land Cruisers.
Prado guys will probably weather it fairly well. We are used to it.

All that was written with a helping of sarcasm and humor. So, feel free to debate it. I just don't want to everyone to get serious about it.

And, furthermore, I own a Land Rover Defender, so am obviously better than all of you who don't

 

[44Runner]

So, if a Land Cruiser doesn't have a F/F front and rear axle, and selectable lockers it isn't a "real" Land Cruiser?
I occurs to me that a lot of people on this very forum are going to be deeply upset when they find out they don't have a "real" Land Cruisers.
Prado guys will probably weather it fairly well. We are used to it.

Nobody said that but you.

 

[coldtaco]

the prado has same/similar drive train as the solid front axle hilux (truck in the US), like the hd has same/similar drive train as the 60 series. Engines may vary

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

the prado has same/similar drive train as the solid front axle hilux (truck in the US), like the hd has same/similar drive train as the 60 series. Engines may vary

OK, when I get a few minutes, I'm going to go through the entire drive train from the engine to the tires and let you guys know what is what. I'll even list part numbers that cross to the heavy duty model and part numbers that cross to toyota trucks.. I've looked up nearly all the part numbers on ToyoDIY, and the LJ78 drive train shares more parts with the heavy duty cruisers than the hilux. Just no time right now. You guys will be very surprised!

 

[Postoy]

Having owned a plethora of mini trucks and 4 runners I can honestly say there is quite a few differences to my LJ78. I'm looking forward to Nicks list, but to rattle off a few. My cruiser did come with a factory selectable rear locker, high pinion front diff, Electric winch and suspension seats. Most of these options were never available in the mini trucks (Besides the rear locker) in my country.

From what I understand the biggest difference from the lj vs the "Heavier duty" cruisers is suspension. Coil vs Leaf, which I will admit in stock form Leaf will out perform. But with some mods (Pradocruizer you on here?) I have seen some insane coil suspension on the LJs.

The heavier duty axles IMO are redundant. My last truck was an 88 4runner that I Solid axle swapped with a mini truck front axle. Locked it front and rear with 5.29 gears and ran 36" Swampers. I NEVER ran into a situation where I found the axles were holding me back. Toyota over axle and under power their trucks.

 

[44Runner]

OK, when I get a few minutes, I'm going to go through the entire drive train from the engine to the tires and let you guys know what is what. I'll even list part numbers that cross to the heavy duty model and part numbers that cross to toyota trucks.. I've looked up nearly all the part numbers on ToyoDIY, and the LJ78 drive train shares more parts with the heavy duty cruisers than the hilux. Just no time right now. You guys will be very surprised!

This conversation has gone off topic big time.

Part numbers don't tell the whole story. Engines are engines. I frankly don't see one as more heavy duty than the other. Transmissions could be an argument I guess but the fact the the PZJ and the LJ share a transmission definitely muddies the water a whole lot. Suspension is different, but you can make a pretty solid argument for coils being better than leaf sprung. Once again, the main issue comes down to axles. That is the main difference, ring gear size. Having run Toyota stuff for decades now, the only thing I have ever really had an issue with is the 8" ring gear. Now this is with heavy rock crawling with 109:1 low range gear and a super charged 3.4L and 35" tires, but that thing blew 2 different 8" rear R&P sets. If that truck had the same rear end my PZJ77 has, I doubt it would have ever had an issue. I also don't really see many people here that run tires bigger than 33s, have crawler boxes, or go rock crawling. So I am not sure that many people have reached the limit of the 8" rear in their Prado.

I am a Prado fan. I even tried to buy one before I bought my PZJ. I love that they all come with rear fold up seats and I like the coils. The axle situation was the only thing I didn't like but given my intended use, I wasn't really worried about. I am more a family oriented wheeler now that I have a family and all...

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

This conversation has gone off topic big time.

Part numbers don't tell the whole story. Engines are engines. I frankly don't see one as more heavy duty than the other. Transmissions could be an argument I guess but the fact the the PZJ and the LJ share a transmission definitely muddies the water a whole lot. Suspension is different, but you can make a pretty solid argument for coils being better than leaf sprung. Once again, the main issue comes down to axles. That is the main difference, ring gear size. Having run Toyota stuff for decades now, the only thing I have ever really had an issue with is the 8" ring gear. Now this is with heavy rock crawling with 109:1 low range gear and a super charged 3.4L and 35" tires, but that thing blew 2 different 8" rear R&P sets. If that truck had the same rear end my PZJ77 has, I doubt it would have ever had an issue. I also don't really see many people here that run tires bigger than 33s, have crawler boxes, or go rock crawling. So I am not sure that many people have reached the limit of the 8" rear in their Prado.

I am a Prado fan. I even tried to buy one before I bought my PZJ. I love that they all come with rear fold up seats and I like the coils. The axle situation was the only thing I didn't like but given my intended use, I wasn't really worried about. I am more a family oriented wheeler now that I have a family and all...

I agree, it's gone way off topic. Sorry to the OP!! Maybe I'll start a new thread when I get to a detailed technical comparison between the two models.

Regarding the LJ78 axles, one of the things I was going to say regarding the front axle, is other than the housing, it's pretty much all the same as in the heavy duty models. Same size high pinion front diff, axles, birfields, knuckles, spindles, hubs, brakes as the heavy duty 1990+ 70 series. Housing is different because it's coil instead of leaf basically. There are a few members that have upgraded to an 80 series e-locker high-pinion front third member. It's basically bolt in, but you have to drill two holes to match different ones around the locker motor. So if an 80 or HD 70 series diff bolts in, I think that says a lot. When rebuilding the front axle, it's the same kit as the heavy duty model.

With regard to the rear axle, the brakes are same as the 80 series. Housing is unique. It's semi-floating (probably like your PZJ??). Yes, it's only 8", so smaller than the heavy duty cruisers. I'm also of the opinion it is plenty strong enough. Heck, year after year I move 9000lb combined truck/trailer weight when I tow my camper. Never had an issue under all that load, or while locked and wheeling. Rear axle is also the offset design like other landcruisers, so could not even be used in a Hilux.

Prado came with 4.875:1 diffs. I think they are unique to the Prado? Or did some mini-trucks come with those.

Now one thing I should say, is that the PRE 1990 Bundera did have smaller everything that was more similar to the Hilux. It's the POST 1990 Prado that I've been talking about however, as that is what I own.

Definitely no mini-trucks came with the split transfer case that the Prado has. Yes, it's a heavy duty landcruiser split case.

 

[44Runner]

I agree, it's gone way off topic. Sorry to the OP!! Maybe I'll start a new thread when I get to a detailed technical comparison between the two models.

Regarding the LJ78 axles, one of the things I was going to say regarding the front axle, is other than the housing, it's pretty much all the same as in the heavy duty models. Same size high pinion front diff, axles, birfields, knuckles, spindles, hubs, brakes as the heavy duty 1990+ 70 series. Housing is different because it's coil instead of leaf basically. There are a few members that have upgraded to an 80 series e-locker high-pinion front third member. It's basically bolt in, but you have to drill two holes to match different ones around the locker motor. So if an 80 or HD 70 series diff bolts in, I think that says a lot. When rebuilding the front axle, it's the same kit as the heavy duty model.

With regard to the rear axle, the brakes are same as the 80 series. Housing is unique. It's semi-floating (probably like your PZJ??). Yes, it's only 8", so smaller than the heavy duty cruisers. I'm also of the opinion it is plenty strong enough. Heck, year after year I move 9000lb combined truck/trailer weight when I tow my camper. Never had an issue under all that load, or while locked and wheeling. Rear axle is also the offset design like other landcruisers, so could not even be used in a Hilux.

Prado came with 4.875:1 diffs. I think they are unique to the Prado? Or did some mini-trucks come with those.

Now one thing I should say, is that the PRE 1990 Bundera did have smaller everything that was more similar to the Hilux. It's the POST 1990 Prado that I've been talking about however, as that is what I own.

Definitely no mini-trucks came with the split transfer case that the Prado has. Yes, it's a heavy duty landcruiser split case.

I will continue off topic because this has gotten super interesting and the original question has been thoroughly answered.

My PZJ77 has a full floating rear axle. While searching I noticed that all locked PZJs and HZJs that I saw had full floating rears so I *think* that might be universal. If it is factory locked, it is full floating (let me know if anyone knows otherwise). The reverse is definitely not true. Not all full floaters are factory locked.

The 4.88 diff is not unique to the Prado. I know for a fact that it was available from the factory in some 4Runners. In at least the second gen 4Runners that came with factory 4.88 gears, the third member is actually a unique casting that will only fit factory Toyota 4.88 gears. I wish they had given something a little deeper than 4.11 to the PZJs by default.

 

[AirheadNut]

According to Toyodiy cross referencing the Prado ring and pinion is specific to the LJ and RJ platforms. Also, the rear e-locker that came in the Prado was a semi-floater.

 

[digitalbuck]

My new model 2L-THE arrived and the swap is underway. I believe this is the engine with the ceramic precups and I'm pleased with that. I'm also very impressed with the look of the engine. Not just "cleaned" with brake fluid, there isn't a scratch on the paint on the block. Not a speck of rust or corrosion, even on the exhaust manifold, turbo heat shield, etc. where heat always leaves its mark. It's pretty remarkable. Hopefully the swap goes smoothly and I'll be back on the road soon!

 

[digitalbuck]

I agree, it's gone way off topic. Sorry to the OP!! Maybe I'll start a new thread when I get to a detailed technical comparison between the two models.

Regarding the LJ78 axles, one of the things I was going to say regarding the front axle, is other than the housing, it's pretty much all the same as in the heavy duty models. Same size high pinion front diff, axles, birfields, knuckles, spindles, hubs, brakes as the heavy duty 1990+ 70 series. Housing is different because it's coil instead of leaf basically. There are a few members that have upgraded to an 80 series e-locker high-pinion front third member. It's basically bolt in, but you have to drill two holes to match different ones around the locker motor. So if an 80 or HD 70 series diff bolts in, I think that says a lot. When rebuilding the front axle, it's the same kit as the heavy duty model.

With regard to the rear axle, the brakes are same as the 80 series. Housing is unique. It's semi-floating (probably like your PZJ??). Yes, it's only 8", so smaller than the heavy duty cruisers. I'm also of the opinion it is plenty strong enough. Heck, year after year I move 9000lb combined truck/trailer weight when I tow my camper. Never had an issue under all that load, or while locked and wheeling. Rear axle is also the offset design like other landcruisers, so could not even be used in a Hilux.

Prado came with 4.875:1 diffs. I think they are unique to the Prado? Or did some mini-trucks come with those.

Now one thing I should say, is that the PRE 1990 Bundera did have smaller everything that was more similar to the Hilux. It's the POST 1990 Prado that I've been talking about however, as that is what I own.

Definitely no mini-trucks came with the split transfer case that the Prado has. Yes, it's a heavy duty landcruiser split case.

I'm the original poster and I fully endorse the way this conversation has gone. And it isn't really off topic at all because i was talking about different engine options and switching to an HZJ77. Great info here, thanks.