Cybertruck or 200 Series Land Cruiser? (6 Viewers)

[desmocruiser]

Over the course of history a lot of people have been proven wrong using the words "always" and "never."

To the grid issues I say: where there's a dollar, there's a way.

Always possible, I just won’t be around to witness it, which is never in my lifetime!!!

I think for EV’s to even make the jump to 20-25% sales it will require a battery production/recycling and charging breakthrough from the Private sector along with infrastructure investments, think Microsoft/Apple level of monetizing and revolutionary innovation.

 

[Adrenaline6]

I think that's the right answer for Toyota. It plays to their strengths. They are the master of hybrid efficiency as @desmocruiser kindly pointed out earlier. There's a place and consumer for this. Leverages the strengths of ICE where it's most efficient (freeway) and electric motors (city).

I think part of EVs challenges today is surely the infrastructure. Consumer education. But also because legacy manufacturers can't go toe to toe and out compete Tesla in this space. And that "space" is expanding and encroaching onto others playgrounds. I mean look at where we are - a CT or 200-series thread?

That's the thing though. Hybrids aren't what they are banking on either. That is why they haven't really changed their old formula into higher output batteries to make them better. They are heavily researching/developing hydrogen and ammonia. The former CEO voiced his opinion on EV's before he stepped down and was "attacked" by the eco crowd for it. He stepped down, rather than battle it out and bring attention to the drama- the Japanese way. Turns out now, he was right all along and the new CEO has shifted Toyota's course with what the old CEO was doing to begin with.

More and more evidence and more and more scientists are now calling bs on the whole eco crisis. Proven data skews and straight up bias is now very much out in the public when before there was just a few outspoken people that were labeled as "deniers". Kerry himself has stepped down as the current admins "climate czar". The big auto manufacturers are straight up losing money on EV's and are making it known that they do not approve of what they are being forced to do and that it is causing them financial hardship because of it.

As far as the meme about the cowboy and horses go. You know how long it took to go from horses to horseless carriages? A long time. There was a lot of development that took place before cars became main stream. Steam and electric precluded ICE and were more advanced/developed than ICE was for awhile. The early ICE vehicles were garbage and unreliable, not to mention the unavailability of gas stations. The EV will follow the same development process like everything else does. Whether it be batteries, hydrogen, ammonia....whatever. It is in it's infancy, and the vehicles now will be looked on as developmental garbage as the development continues.

 

[40Man]

That's the thing though. Hybrids aren't what they are banking on either. That is why they haven't really changed their old formula into higher output batteries to make them better. They are heavily researching/developing hydrogen and ammonia. The former CEO voiced his opinion on EV's before he stepped down and was "attacked" by the eco crowd for it. He stepped down, rather than battle it out and bring attention to the drama- the Japanese way. Turns out now, he was right all along and the new CEO has shifted Toyota's course with what the old CEO was doing to begin with.

More and more evidence and more and more scientists are now calling bs on the whole eco crisis. Proven data skews and straight up bias is now very much out in the public when before there was just a few outspoken people that were labeled as "deniers". Kerry himself has stepped down as the current admins "climate czar". The big auto manufacturers are straight up losing money on EV's and are making it known that they do not approve of what they are being forced to do and that it is causing them financial hardship because of it.

As far as the meme about the cowboy and horses go. You know how long it took to go from horses to horseless carriages? A long time. There was a lot of development that took place before cars became main stream. Steam and electric precluded ICE and were more advanced/developed than ICE was for awhile. The early ICE vehicles were garbage and unreliable, not to mention the unavailability of gas stations. The EV will follow the same development process like everything else does. Whether it be batteries, hydrogen, ammonia....whatever. It is in it's infancy, and the vehicles now will be looked on as developmental garbage as the development continues.

A plug in hybrid seems to be the best current item if they were more available.

Toyota basically said they considered it for the new Tundra (Tundra Prime) but it is already 6k lbs and adding more batteries would kill payload if kept as a half ton. They need better battery tech, which their first "stage" will be in 2026 models.

I am all for innovation and electric motors are awesome and reliable. It is the battery tech that needs a few more steps to make viable as a gas replacement for everyone.

 

[bloc]

The rate of change in technology is vastly different than when we moved from ungulates to ICE vehicles. And if no one were producing BEVs today that change wouldn’t happen.

There are many things Tesla does that I dislike, but at the end of the day these cars make a ton of sense for a good chunk of our population.. today.

 

[TeCKis300]

The challenge for hybrids is their design and manufacturing complexity. They are a Rube Goldberg contraption and giant compromise. I loath to own and maintain one. From a manufacturing standpoint, it's going to be very hard for these legacy manufacturers to be price competitive against clean sheet simple EVs where complexity is in SW and the price to scale that component is minimal. Or the likes of Tesla.

Question for an EV and LC owner:

Weekend is here, going to run a few errands, stop at a brewery for lunch, toss the MTB on the rack for a ride etc. essentially the stuff we enjoy doing!

What vehicle do you take the Cruiser or the Tesla?

Easy. The Tesla is largely our weekend warrior for normal trips. We often go to LA which is a 250mile round trip. Or Sacramento that is a 1000mile round trip, where my LX can do a 500mile leg without refueling. Yet we often take the Tesla as it is that good. I want Autopilot in my 200-series! Efficiency obviously destroys the 200-series being at opposite ends of the spectrum. The charge infrastructure is everywhere in CA and we don't think twice about it.

To your point, adventure trips is the domain of the Cruiser. Love it and is where so many of our memories are made. My kids would be really really mad if I got rid of the LX for the CT. I'll ask them again when I have a CT.

That's the thing though. Hybrids aren't what they are banking on either. That is why they haven't really changed their old formula into higher output batteries to make them better. They are heavily researching/developing hydrogen and ammonia. The former CEO voiced his opinion on EV's before he stepped down and was "attacked" by the eco crowd for it. He stepped down, rather than battle it out and bring attention to the drama- the Japanese way. Turns out now, he was right all along and the new CEO has shifted Toyota's course with what the old CEO was doing to begin with.

More and more evidence and more and more scientists are now calling bs on the whole eco crisis. Proven data skews and straight up bias is now very much out in the public when before there was just a few outspoken people that were labeled as "deniers". Kerry himself has stepped down as the current admins "climate czar". The big auto manufacturers are straight up losing money on EV's and are making it known that they do not approve of what they are being forced to do and that it is causing them financial hardship because of it.

As far as the meme about the cowboy and horses go. You know how long it took to go from horses to horseless carriages? A long time. There was a lot of development that took place before cars became main stream. Steam and electric precluded ICE and were more advanced/developed than ICE was for awhile. The early ICE vehicles were garbage and unreliable, not to mention the unavailability of gas stations. The EV will follow the same development process like everything else does. Whether it be batteries, hydrogen, ammonia....whatever. It is in it's infancy, and the vehicles now will be looked on as developmental garbage as the development continues.

Oh man, don't get my started on hydrogen. It was never viable at scale because of the complexity of fueling, logistics, and literally asking for a new energy distribution network. When natural gas infrastructures are dwindling in the US, there is no appetite for anything else. It doesn't matter how elegant it can be at the vehicle level, when it's a non-starter at the infrastructure level. Maybe makes sense for fleet vehicles. Maybe even for Japan that has limited sprawl.

Understand these are fundamentally EVs too, but with a hydrogen battery. Sure they can be more energy dense (which engineers were banking on), but not when considering the rest of the components needing to support it... Then consider it can't regen like a battery, and can't discharge in the way lithiums can for high performance. Toyota's CEO had it wrong, because their engineers were too buried in the vehicle system myopically. Just like all the other Legacy manufacturers developing EVs without a network. It's not just about the car. It's about the whole experience, beyond even the electric motor.

Tesla's NACS charging network win is prescient, and is another example of how much further ahead they are thinking.

 

[Adrenaline6]

The rate of change in technology is vastly different than when we moved from ungulates to ICE vehicles. And if no one were producing BEVs today that change wouldn’t happen.

There are many things Tesla does that I dislike, but at the end of the day these cars make a ton of sense for a good chunk of our population.. today.

You are correct....and that applies to both sides of the equation. Yes, tech can move and be applied quicker, but, in turn, tech is developed and rendered obsolete quicker too.

 

[Adrenaline6]

Tesla's NACS charging network win is prescient, and is another example of how much further ahead they are thinking.

I don't know, to me, further ahead thinking would be NIO's battery exchange station. It solves charging time and range is now a non issue once a station network is established (a task in itself though).

On the flip side, a breakthrough in battery tech will render the need for NIO's battery exchange stations obsolete. Like I keep saying, we are in EV infancy. Picking a side will most likely be a stupid move when the "side" that wins, isn't even here yet.

 

[TeCKis300]

I don't know, to me, further ahead thinking would be NIO's battery exchange station. It solves charging time and range is now a non issue once a station network is established (a task in itself though).

On the flip side, a breakthrough in battery tech will render the need for NIO's battery exchange stations obsolete. Like I keep saying, we are in EV infancy. Picking a side will most likely be a stupid move when the "side" that wins, isn't even here yet.

Uhm, welcome to a decade ago? Demonstrated by Tesla in 2013, deployed in Harris Ranch 2015, closed 2016 with little takers.

The Tesla Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the world today...I wouldn't call that infancy.

Charge time and range are not an issue in my mind and that's looking at it from a ICE perspective. EVs are largely at parity to gas cars in range, and start with a "full tank" everyday. We won't see much more range on general models, because if batteries get more energy dense, that'll be an opportunity to reduce weight and cost.

I do want a mega battery model to tow with. Not a Hummer EV though.

 

[desmocruiser]

Uhm, welcome to a decade ago? Demonstrated by Tesla in 2013, deployed in Harris Ranch 2015, closed 2016 with little takers.

The Tesla Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the world today...I wouldn't call that infancy.

Charge time and range are not an issue in my mind and that's looking at it from a ICE perspective. EVs are largely at parity to gas cars in range, and start with a "full tank" everyday. We won't see much more range on general models, because if batteries get more energy dense, that'll be an opportunity to reduce weight and cost.

I do want a mega battery model to tow with. Not a Hummer EV though.

I really wish the CT had better towing just to get a picture of a Cyber Truck pulling an AirStream!

An awesome visual sight displaying almost opposing iconic aerodynamic design methods to lessen drag!

Fun debate!

Oh and a big reason the Tesla is such a great seller is Musk’s manufacturing process, the guy gets little credit however it may end up being his most significant contribution!

 

[coleAK]

I’m in the largest state with by far the worst charging infrastructure. I know 3 families that are all EV (X, 3, Rivian R1T/S, Y, R1S/Y, ionic, lightning).

If I could get 250 miles towing my camper I’d go full EV. 250 miles would mean that I could drive to Homer, park plug the camper into 30a and the truck into 50a.

I think one of the biggest problems with EVs in the is they have fallen victim to the political ideology silo and the resulting mis-information. People are completely unwilling to consider the idea due to motivated inference/motivated reasoning.

I’m pretty conservative both politically and ideology (but cross lines when it makes sense). Another big reason I bought the Tesla is it is the most American made car and is not dependent on middle eastern oil.

Think about it: they don’t work well in the cold or in rural places. Sweden, Norway and Iceland have the highest per-capita EV ownership. Much higher than California. I was in Iceland last year you couldn’t throw a rock without hitting a Tesla or polestar.

The grid can’t support it. First off if the demand for electricity is there utilities well meet it. Also do electric dryers crash the grid? My Tesla draws 30a, my dryer draws 23a. And solar, Hawaii has ~doubled the number of homes with solar every year the last few now they are pushing 40% of homes have solar. I have 7kw in Alaska, the worst place for solar (in terms of ROI). 7-8 months a year I charge my Tesla off the sun. Germany (northern, snowy, mountainous) makes 20% of their electricity from solar.

In terms of home charging. When I bought my S in late 2014 (from a buddy, f22 pilot had it for 5 months, went through a rough divorce, unexpected got PCSed overseas for 3 years) for $72k saving time and money by charging at home wasn’t even a consideration. Also I never really liked the s, it was huge (as big as my LX) with a lot of wasted space. Sold it for $70k in 2018 and bought the 3.

What about when the battery dies? Modern batteries done just fail like lead acid, they degrade slowly over time. My 5 year old 3 has lost ~1%. Max was 310 miles when new now it is 307. My buddy has a 2015 S with 160k miles on it, has lost ~5% 240 miles to ~230 miles.

If you haven’t experienced it You can’t say that home charging isn’t much more convenient than getting gas. It is sort of like when my dad 15 years ago would argue that going to the library was not less convent then using the internet for research. “But you have to turn on a computer and type for what you want to know…”. He hated computers until the day he died.

Last week I filled up the LX, 1 mile out of the way total 5min or so standing outside at -20F, 10-15 min of my time total, and ~$90 later, driving straight home parking in my heated garage, connecting my charge cable, and waking up the next day full and <$6 later (if I were to charge from 10% to 100% paying for the electricity) sounds pretty good. Rough math, 9 years, ~80k miles in EVs, Between saving on Gas and PM I’m at ~$30k saved. I currently save ~$300 a month driving the Tesla.

What about long trips. Sure if you drive >250 miles a day and >60k+ miles a year or tow for a living EVs aren’t there yet. I work with a guy that commutes ~150 miles a day round trip (big lake to Anchorage and back), he is at 110k miles on his model 3 in 3 years. He figures he has saved $30k in gas alone.

Hybrids, to be honest in my EV I have never thought, man I wish this was a hybrid. I see the advantage of plug in hybrids, is the ram concept of smaller battery, massive onboard generator.

Lastly oil. For me the big eye opener as to how fast oil is likely on the out is how aggressively the Saudi’s are diversifying their economy/investments.

Are the current state of EVs going to be around forever, no. Are they a major step forward yes.

 

[Mbarron37]

I’m in the largest state with by far the worst charging infrastructure. I know 3 families that are all EV (X, 3, Rivian R1T/S, Y, R1S/Y, ionic, lightning).

If I could get 250 miles towing my camper I’d go full EV. 250 miles would mean that I could drive to Homer, park plug the camper into 30a and the truck into 50a.

I think one of the biggest problems with EVs in the is they have fallen victim to the political ideology silo and the resulting mis-information. People are completely unwilling to consider the idea due to motivated inference/motivated reasoning.

I’m pretty conservative both politically and ideology (but cross lines when it makes sense). Another big reason I bought the Tesla is it is the most American made car and is not dependent on middle eastern oil.

Think about it: they don’t work well in the cold or in rural places. Sweden, Norway and Iceland have the highest per-capita EV ownership. Much higher than California. I was in Iceland last year you couldn’t throw a rock without hitting a Tesla or polestar.

The grid can’t support it. First off if the demand for electricity is there utilities well meet it. Also do electric dryers crash the grid? My Tesla draws 30a, my dryer draws 23a. And solar, Hawaii has ~doubled the number of homes with solar every year the last few now they are pushing 40% of homes have solar. I have 7kw in Alaska, the worst place for solar (in terms of ROI). 7-8 months a year I charge my Tesla off the sun. Germany (northern, snowy, mountainous) makes 20% of their electricity from solar.

In terms of home charging. When I bought my S in late 2014 (from a buddy, f22 pilot had it for 5 months, went through a rough divorce, unexpected got PCSed overseas for 3 years) for $72k saving time and money by charging at home wasn’t even a consideration. Also I never really liked the s, it was huge (as big as my LX) with a lot of wasted space. Sold it for $70k in 2018 and bought the 3.

What about when the battery dies? Modern batteries done just fail like lead acid, they degrade slowly over time. My 5 year old 3 has lost ~1%. Max was 310 miles when new now it is 307. My buddy has a 2015 S with 160k miles on it, has lost ~5% 240 miles to ~230 miles.

If you haven’t experienced it You can’t say that home charging isn’t much more convenient than getting gas. It is sort of like when my dad 15 years ago would argue that going to the library was not less convent then using the internet for research. “But you have to turn on a computer and type for what you want to know…”. He hated computers until the day he died.

Last week I filled up the LX, 1 mile out of the way total 5min or so standing outside at -20F, 10-15 min of my time total, and ~$90 later, driving straight home parking in my heated garage, connecting my charge cable, and waking up the next day full and <$6 later (if I were to charge from 10% to 100% paying for the electricity) sounds pretty good. Rough math, 9 years, ~80k miles in EVs, Between saving on Gas and PM I’m at ~$30k saved. I currently save ~$300 a month driving the Tesla.

What about long trips. Sure if you drive >250 miles a day and >60k+ miles a year or tow for a living EVs aren’t there yet. I work with a guy that commutes ~150 miles a day round trip (big lake to Anchorage and back), he is at 110k miles on his model 3 in 3 years. He figures he has saved $30k in gas alone.

Hybrids, to be honest in my EV I have never thought, man I wish this was a hybrid. I see the advantage of plug in hybrids, is the ram concept of smaller battery, massive onboard generator.

Lastly oil. For me the big eye opener as to how fast oil is likely on the out is how aggressively the Saudi’s are diversifying their economy/investments.

Are the current state of EVs going to be around forever, no. Are they a major step forward yes.

Agreed. Makes a ton of sense for anyone with a garage. I have a ranch home and two car attached garage, I would just need to add the charger. No big deal.

Next vehicle may very well be an EV. Still plenty of time to think about it. I hope Toyota/ Lexus come out with something by the time I am ready to purchase (few years away). I don’t want a hybrid…..

 

[Adrenaline6]

Uhm, welcome to a decade ago? Demonstrated by Tesla in 2013, deployed in Harris Ranch 2015, closed 2016 with little takers.

The Tesla Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the world today...I wouldn't call that infancy.

Charge time and range are not an issue in my mind and that's looking at it from a ICE perspective. EVs are largely at parity to gas cars in range, and start with a "full tank" everyday. We won't see much more range on general models, because if batteries get more energy dense, that'll be an opportunity to reduce weight and cost.

I do want a mega battery model to tow with. Not a Hummer EV though.

Umm, who said it was a newer idea? Just forward thinking. NIO has actually implemented it and is doing it now.

The model T was the best selling vehicle at one time. It still was garbage in the grand scheme of things and in ICE infancy. Something relatively new can still be popular. One doesn't relate to the other.

Range is only mentioned because of required charge time. If you solve one, it solves the other in a matter of speaking.

As far as hydrogen, it does not necessarily have to be an EV although it can be. Toyota and Yamaha have developed an HCE.

 

[Heckraiser]

Question for an EV and LC owner:

Weekend is here, going to run a few errands, stop at a brewery for lunch, toss the MTB on the rack for a ride etc. essentially the stuff we enjoy doing!

What vehicle do you take the Cruiser or the Tesla?

A typical Saturday of fun in the front range of Colorado fits easily within one full charge. I'd take the Tesla as long as there was no 4wd involved or I'm not bringing anything too big to fit on a bike rack. Or sometimes, I'd just rather take the truck for the hell of it

What unit Is "m"? If that's per month, that's pretty cheap especially if you're logging lots of miles, though that cost is obviously going to vary depending on where one lives because electric rates, much like gas, are regional in nature. Even with my new car (I traded the LC in for a 2024 Highlander earlier this month), I'll probably be filling up (around 15 gallons) roughly 1.5 times per month with gas prices hovering around $3 per gallon around here lately.

I would honestly really like to go electric, but I just feel like it's isn't quite there yet for me. There's an excellent chance that my next vehicle will either by a hybrid or completely electric. I don't see myself buying a Tesla (definitely NOT the CT). I like the overall Rivian product, but want them to be better established before handing money over.

Per month. I have to be careful to charge off peak hours to keep the bill in check. My local utility is tiered so 1-3pm is $$ and 3-7pm is $$$. The Tesla makes this easy to do by setting your charging preferences. You can program it so you plug in whenever you get home (on peak) but don't actually start sucking juice until after 7pm.

 

[stonepa]

The challenge for hybrids is their design and manufacturing complexity. They are a Rube Goldberg contraption and giant compromise. I loath to own and maintain one.

We still own 2 Lexus RX400h hybrids for my kids to drive when they are home. Both of them are well north of 250k miles. Other than normal wear items like brakes and tires, and general maintenance, these vehicle have been flawless. Not a single thing has broken since we bought them new 17 years ago. I trust Toyota’s hybrid system with zero reservations. I just wish the tuning of the hybrid systems on the new Land Cruiser, Tundra, and Sequoia focused on efficiency and range rather than power. The base 2.4L turbo in the LC250 has more than enough power on its own. So does the V6TT. But if it got 35mpg like the new Highlander, now that would be something exciting.

 

[coleAK]

Question for an EV and LC owner:

Weekend is here, going to run a few errands, stop at a brewery for lunch, toss the MTB on the rack for a ride etc. essentially the stuff we enjoy doing!

What vehicle do you take the Cruiser or the Tesla?

For above Tesla every time.

On the model 3 I have roof rails and a 2” receiver. Can carry up to 6 pairs of alpine skis or 8 pairs of Nordic on the roof, have a north shore-4 so I can carry 4 mountain bikes on the rear and another one on the roof if needed.

Backcountry skiing with the Tesla is almost cheating. I can turn on the heat from my phone and completely defrost the car in a fraction of the time of the LX.

Only time I take the LX is if:
-Towing my camper
-going off road
-Need >5 seats
- need to pick up something that won’t fit in the Tesla.
- more then 6 or 8” of snow and the roads haven’t been plowed.

I still love my ‘13 LX, I’ve had it for over 10 years now. I don’t think I’ll ever get rid of it. That said if it gets totaled tomorrow I don’t think I’d replace it with another 200 (or 300).
in the event of it getting totaled For a ICE replacement I’d probably go unimog or lately I’ve had this idea of importing a Uaz 469. To restore.

 

[40Man]

Uhm, welcome to a decade ago? Demonstrated by Tesla in 2013, deployed in Harris Ranch 2015, closed 2016 with little takers.

The Tesla Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the world today...I wouldn't call that infancy.

Charge time and range are not an issue in my mind and that's looking at it from a ICE perspective. EVs are largely at parity to gas cars in range, and start with a "full tank" everyday. We won't see much more range on general models, because if batteries get more energy dense, that'll be an opportunity to reduce weight and cost.

I do want a mega battery model to tow with. Not a Hummer EV though.

I had read that Tesla does not publish individual sales, only aggregate, so the numbers saying model y were #1 were integrated with the Model 3. Statista puts the Model Y below the Corolla, Rav 4 and F Series (which is an unfair grouping itself). Still impressive, but not the best selling in the world, despite Musk stating otherwise last year. Regardless, what Tesla has done has still been very impressive, and has really boosted the viability of electric cars, especially with infrastructure.

Edit: I wonder where their sales #s would be without tax credits.

 

[stonepa]

I had read that Tesla does not publish individual sales, only aggregate, so the numbers saying model y were #1 were integrated with the Model 3. Statista puts the Model Y below the Corolla, Rav 4 and F Series (which is an unfair grouping itself). Still impressive, but not the best selling in the world, despite Musk stating otherwise last year. Regardless, what Tesla has done has still been very impressive, and has really boosted the viability of electric cars, especially with infrastructure.

Edit: I wonder where their sales #s would be without tax credits.

I always wonder if we could afford to drive Land Cruisers if governments around the world didn’t subsidize the fossil fuel industry over $7 TRILLION in 2023 alone.

 

[OGBeno]

A few years ago when I was driving through Plano, I stopped by my friend who happens to work at TMNA (corner office at the top of the building kind of fellow, Cruiser guy).... Even then he was saying that max 30-35% EV fleet-wise in ten years due to the most important constraint for global EV adoption: mining the materials we need to make batteries.

I'm seeing this personally with the mine going into our town and the intense struggles between the people who live here and the mining interests. Mine was originally being billed for copper and zinc and other s***.... but with the Feds push for EVization of everything, the mine is now fast tracked and is being billed as the first and only manganese mine in the US (reduces our dependence on China) for materials related to EV technologies.

 

[40Man]

I always wonder if we could afford to drive Land Cruisers if governments around the world didn’t subsidize the fossil fuel industry over $7 TRILLION in 2023 alone.

Electric subsidies, mostly comprising renewable energy, energy efficiency and to a much lesser extent, nuclear energy, cost the U.S. taxpayer a substantial amount more than the subsidies on fossil fuels.

This chart is from 2016, but the spending on renewables. Per Reuters, the spending on renewable subsidies has doubled over the last 7 years. Meanwhile, subsidies related to natural gas and petroleum became a net cost to the U.S. government, which gave tax breaks worth $2.1 billion in fiscal year 2022 compared with a revenue inflow of $2.2 billion in fiscal years 2016 and 2017 combined.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-doubles-renewable-subsidies-156-billion-last-seven-years-eia-2023-08-02/

Renewable Energy Still Dominates Energy Subsidies in FY 2022

The Energy Information Administration (EIA), an independent agency of the U.S. Department of Energy, evaluated the amount of subsidies that…

www.instituteforenergyresearch.org

 

[40Man]

A few years ago when I was driving through Plano, I stopped by my friend who happens to work at TMNA (corner office at the top of the building kind of fellow, Cruiser guy).... Even then he was saying that max 30-35% EV fleet-wise in ten years due to the most important constraint for global EV adoption: mining the materials we need to make batteries.

I'm seeing this personally with the mine going into our town and the intense struggles between the people who live here and the mining interests. Mine was originally being billed for copper and zinc and other s***.... but with the Feds push for EVization of everything, the mine is now fast tracked and is being billed as the first and only manganese mine in the US (reduces our dependence on China) for materials related to EV technologies.

Mining cobalt and lithium in the U.S. is difficult. There is only a limited amount of cobalt to be found (basically Idaho for cobalt), and the one mine in Idaho that opened had to close due to market prices. The rest largely comes from China and the DRC, which has inhumane mining practices and tenuous relations with the US.