Bolt on turbo kit (9 Viewers)

[Fj80oregon]

I will be listing my NIB WE kit shortly... Sadly, this never became CARB approved, and I am in no position to enjoy it.

10k!!!! For pain and suffering.

 

[CJK]

10k!!!! For pain and suffering.

and another 10% for inflation!

 

[jjdeneen918]

August 2019, it will end in infamy. The first Wits End production turbo kit was delivered to customers.

Never did get that CARB approval. What a shame this whole turn of events were created.

 

[White Stripe]

I was on the fence about getting either a 1fz and installing a Wits end turbo or going the LS route. Looks like I likely never would have gotten that turbo kit.

 

[Wompom]

Just saying it’d be cool to keep this to tech so it doesn’t get locked like the other one when everyone started bitching about WE. I get that, but take it to the buyer beware thread.

 

[jht3]

Do you know of any specs on this unit?
I assume you size BOV and BPV by the volume of air they can flow.

If I remember correctly, at 7PSI we're flowing like 30 lb/min

the turbosmart kompact plumb back/diverter valves get used all the time w/ the BMW turbo motors. stock boost on the 3.0L N54 is ~7psi with the stock valves able to handle up to 20 just fine for roughly 500HP with other supporting parts. most people replace w/ the usual Tial BOV for the whoosh whoosh noises, saving the 28mm Kompact's for the more mature crowd. but i think the Kompacts can be converted between recirc and vent to atmosphere too? i know turbosmart has different valves sizes 20mm, 25mm, etc. i am not smart enough to calculate which is needed for the 1FZ as compared to the twin-turbo N54 application, but i'll be the vendor and aussie's have figured it out.

i'm surprised the WE kit never included one. but i'll admit i haven't read every page of the turbo thread.

 

[Greyota]

Good info. I'll dig around to see what Borg Warner recommends for the S300X turbo.

Just checking back in on this. I did some searching but came up empty, were you able to find any info?

 

[CJK]

Just checking back in on this. I did some searching but came up empty, were you able to find any info?

My searching said that pressure isn’t an issue with journal bearing turbos.

Garrett recommends -4AN supply (no restriction).

I can’t find anything from Borg Warner specifically but I assume that what Garrett says holds true for BW since journal bearing turbos are old tech now.

Turbo Oil Restrictors & Oil Supply

An oil restrictor is recommended for optimal performance with ball bearing turbochargers. 40 – 45 psi at maximum engine speed is recommended

www.garrettmotion.com

 

[ChargedSHOTaco]

My searching said that pressure isn’t an issue with journal bearing turbos.

Garrett recommends -4AN supply (no restriction).

Turbo Oil Restrictors & Oil Supply

An oil restrictor is recommended for optimal performance with ball bearing turbochargers. 40 – 45 psi at maximum engine speed is recommended

www.garrettmotion.com

Just checking back in on this. I did some searching but came up empty, were you able to find any info?

As @CJK stated above, high oil pressures are a non issue for these journal bearing turbos.

 

[Greyota]

As @CJK stated above, high oil pressures are a non issue for these journal bearing turbos.

Sounds good, thanks guys.

 

[scottryana]

There was a reason a BOV/recirc valve wasn’t included in the kit. I don’t have the time to explain it right now but it has to do with blowing off air that’s already been metered for fueling and then having a sudden extremely rich stumble.

My truck was originally turbo’d with recirc built into the turbo. But if the truck was cold and I let off the gas and the air recirc’d, but all that extra fuel got dumped into the cylinders the truck would stumble and die. I fixed this with a standalone and MAP based fueling. But the stock MAF fueling wouldn’t work.

The people saying oh a BOV comes stock on BMW, etc. that’s true they also have MAP based fueling tables.

As for the “extreme” pressure to the tubing and clamps, it’s only 5-7psi and only in the charge pipe which is maybe 10” long.

If you want to add a recirc valve just be careful on that first test drive. I know it was quite a surprise to me when pulling up to a stop light etc and letting off the gas and having the truck die.

 

[Cruisers and Co]

There was a reason a BOV/recirc valve wasn’t included in the kit. I don’t have the time to explain it right now but it has to do with blowing off air that’s already been metered for fueling and then having a sudden extremely rich stumble.

My truck was originally turbo’d with recirc built into the turbo. But if the truck was cold and I let off the gas and the air recirc’d, but all that extra fuel got dumped into the cylinders the truck would stumble and die. I fixed this with a standalone and MAP based fueling. But the stock MAF fueling wouldn’t work.

The people saying oh a BOV comes stock on BMW, etc. that’s true they also have MAP based fueling tables.

As for the “extreme” pressure to the tubing and clamps, it’s only 5-7psi and only in the charge pipe which is maybe 14” long.

If you want to add a recirc valve just be careful on that first test drive. I know it was quite a surprise to me when pulling up to a stop light etc and letting off the gas and having the truck die.

Good info right there for people with the Wits End kit that want to try it.

With my next statement I'm not saying it can't happen but...

this has never happened on the Cruisers and Company set up with the factory MAF and Turbosmart recirculation valve.

Maybe the MAF was too close to the compressor inlet on your initial set up? I did have a generic conical filter and the MAF was fairly close to the compressor inlet when we initially got it up and running, it did have some stumbling issues off throttle. I do think it was because the MAF was to close to the compressor inlet. It has not been an issue with the distance the MAF is now.

For the guys with the WE kit that are going to think about a recirc valve, my suggestion is keep the outlet of the recirc valve on the intake pluming as far away from the MAF as you can.

 

[scottryana]

Good info right there for people with the Wits End kit that want to try it.

With my next statement I'm not saying it can't happen but...

this has never happened on the Cruisers and Company set up with the factory MAF and Turbosmart recirculation valve.

Maybe the MAF was too close to the compressor inlet on your initial set up? I did have a generic conical filter and the MAF was fairly close to the compressor inlet when we initially got it up and running, it did have some stumbling issues off throttle. I do think it was because the MAF was to close to the compressor inlet. It has not been an issue with the distance the MAF is now.

For the guys with the WE kit that are going to think about a recirc valve, my suggestion is keep the outlet of the recirc valve on the intake pluming as far away from the MAF as you can.

And just to be clear, this was not with the WE turbo, this was with my personal turbo setup in 2012. I have a very straight intake pipe and a cone filter. The WE setup maybe could function without issues as the intake tract is much longer, and more convoluted with twists and turns. But when I was making my suggestions I favored on the side of safety as the last thing I wanted was someone to install their new setup, go out and romp on it to feel the boost and then let off and have the car die, losing power steering etc. I felt like the trade offs were very minor at the boost levels this was designed for. The journal bearing turbo should have no issues and there are no overt signs of severe compressor surge etc.

The Truth About Compressor Surge - GFB Performance turbo tuning products

gofastbits.com

In this case, the turbo will surge every time the throttle is closed if there is boost pressure in the intercooler. These conditions can cause accelerated turbo bearing wear, however in lightly boosted systems this is unlikely to shorten the turbo’s life a great deal – note that diverter valves were not commonly factory-fitted to turbo cars prior to the early ‘90s, and turbos were still considered to have an acceptable life expectancy. Such turbo systems however were generally running relatively low boost pressures, and it would be fair to say that wear would be greater on a more heavily boosted turbo.

 

[Cruisers and Co]

I'm surprised you guys don't have a valve in place. Years ago a local guy built his own turbo and I went to look at it. No bypass valve and when he got off the throttle after spooling it up while standing still the intake tubing shook violently. after installing a valve it was fine. Not sure about the turbo, but it has to be taking it's toll on the intake tubing and it's joints.

Any of the Wits end guys want to chime in on if their turbo growls off throttle? In my earliest iteration of turboing my 80 when I was running a different turbo I had a ton of off throttle surge when the throttle blade shut and hence in the finalized product we decided to integrate the valve. It was an easy piece to add to provide that an extra layer of reliability and longevity.

And just to be clear, this was not with the WE turbo, this was with my personal turbo setup in 2012. I have a very straight intake pipe and a cone filter. The WE setup maybe could function without issues as the intake tract is much longer, and more convoluted with twists and turns. But when I was making my suggestions I favored on the side of safety as the last thing I wanted was someone to install their new setup, go out and romp on it to feel the boost and then let off and have the car die loosing power steering etc. I felt like the trade offs were very minor at the boost levels this was designed for. The journal bearing turbo should have no issues and there are no overt signs of severe compressor surge etc.

The Truth About Compressor Surge - GFB Performance turbo tuning products

gofastbits.com

In this case, the turbo will surge every time the throttle is closed if there is boost pressure in the intercooler. These conditions can cause accelerated turbo bearing wear, however in lightly boosted systems this is unlikely to shorten the turbo’s life a great deal – note that diverter valves were not commonly factory-fitted to turbo cars prior to the early ‘90s, and turbos were still considered to have an acceptable life expectancy. Such turbo systems however were generally running relatively low boost pressures, and it would be fair to say that wear would be greater on a more heavily boosted turbo.

Thanks for clarifying that for anyone who didn't know that was your personal setup. No, 90's tech didn't have BOV's or recirc valves but every manufacturer today has something in place on a turbod vehicle which just goes to show that in the 90's while they may have had acceptable lifespans it was eventually decided by manufacturers to be something that should be added to each turbo setup.

On a side note has anyone put a boost gauge in between the throttle and compressor outlet? We're all running low boost @ 5-7 psi, but that is a tiny distance and volume compared to the whole intake tracks volume which has been pressurized to 7. I would not be surprised if that short span sees a brief 20+ psi or more during high rpm/boost to fully off throttle situations. The way my boost gauge is setup I cannot easily move mine right there but maybe someone else can? Also not sure how the WE is routed for the vacuum boost source of the Wastegate but we are pulling it pre-throttle blade so that when the throttle does shut, the wastegate will open and exhaust gas can bypass the turbine blades. This paired with recirc valve should give the turbo the most protection against any off throttle situations.

 

[scottryana]

Any of the Wits end guys want to chime in on if their turbo growls off throttle? In my earliest iteration of turboing my 80 when I was running a different turbo I had a ton of off throttle surge when the throttle blade shut and hence in the finalized product we decided to integrate the valve. It was an easy piece to add to provide that an extra layer of reliability and longevity.


Thanks for clarifying that for anyone who didn't know that was your personal setup. No, 90's tech didn't have BOV's or recirc valves but every manufacturer today has something in place on a turbod vehicle which just goes to show that in the 90's while they may have had acceptable lifespans it was eventually decided by manufacturers to be something that should be added to each turbo setup.

On a side note has anyone put a boost gauge in between the throttle and compressor outlet? We're all running low boost @ 5-7 psi, but that is a tiny distance and volume compared to the whole intake tracks volume which has been pressurized to 7. I would not be surprised if that short span sees a brief 20+ psi or more during high rpm/boost to fully off throttle situations. The way my boost gauge is setup I cannot easily move mine right there but maybe someone else can? Also not sure how the WE is routed for the vacuum boost source of the Wastegate but we are pulling it pre-throttle blade so that when the throttle does shut, the wastegate will open and exhaust gas can bypass the turbine blades. This paired with recirc valve should give the turbo the most protection against any off throttle situations.

The whole intake tract isn't pressurized to 7psi. The only pressurized air is post compressor in the charge pipe the intake tract still sees suction pre turbo.

 

[Cruisers and Co]

The whole intake tract isn't pressurized to 7psi. The only pressurized air is post compressor in the charge pipe the intake tract still sees suction pre turbo.

I obviously meant post compressor in my comment. Whole intake tract post compressor is long and has a lot of volume, intake track post compressor to throttle body is short and has a small volume. This is definitely seeing more than 7 psi off throttle when the blade slams shut

 

[CJK]

Any of the Wits end guys want to chime in on if their turbo growls off throttle?

I’ve yet to experience anything I’d describe as “turbo growl” in 2.5 years since install.

I’ll try to induce it next time I’m driving and see if anything happens

 

[scottryana]

I obviously meant post compressor in my comment. Whole intake tract post compressor is long and has a lot of volume, intake track post compressor to throttle body is short and has a small volume. This is definitely seeing more than 7 psi off throttle when the blade slams shut

Your setup must be different the WE setup the charge pipe is the only thing pressurized and it’s less than 10” I would bet.

 

[jht3]

There was a reason a BOV/recirc valve wasn’t included in the kit. I don’t have the time to explain it right now but it has to do with blowing off air that’s already been metered for fueling and then having a sudden extremely rich stumble.

My truck was originally turbo’d with recirc built into the turbo. But if the truck was cold and I let off the gas and the air recirc’d, but all that extra fuel got dumped into the cylinders the truck would stumble and die. I fixed this with a standalone and MAP based fueling. But the stock MAF fueling wouldn’t work.

The people saying oh a BOV comes stock on BMW, etc. that’s true they also have MAP based fueling tables.

As for the “extreme” pressure to the tubing and clamps, it’s only 5-7psi and only in the charge pipe which is maybe 14” long.

If you want to add a recirc valve just be careful on that first test drive. I know it was quite a surprise to me when pulling up to a stop light etc and letting off the gas and having the truck die.

i figured there was a reason when you designed all this; MAF.

 

[scottryana]

And guys don’t get me wrong, there are more ways than one to skin a cat and I am sure Cruiser Co will put together a nice system.

When I started this thread this was supposed to be a budget conscious setup, that also had to take into account, dual batteries, the AC air compressor setups, etc.

So what I recommended was a setup to meet all of those requirements. Compromises have to be made. Just like you’re not putting 39’s on your 80 to daily drive it. I have no delusions of grandeur that this is the end all be all of turbo setups. This checked as many of the boxes as I thought possible while trying to keep it at a price point that was reasonable. (I know there was price creep as Joey really likes to go all out with branding and such). And although I had nothing to do with the sale of this kit I still stand by the statement, that this is a very safe, affordable and long lasting setup.

Ryan