Bolt on turbo kit (14 Viewers)

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UGH! I FINALLY have all of the vacuum kit worked out and sourced. I'm including as many OEM pieces as I reasonably can that should be changed with the addition of the turbo. Included is new clamps, new vent hose, new evap hose, new booster check valve and grommet, and new evap check valve and OEM 3.5mm vacuum hose ready to go.

All of these vacuum kits are now assembled and ready to go. ;)

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Nice. You are literally the only guy that would have included those clamps.

Missing a small assortment of Ts for boost control though :hillbilly:
 
any updates or set backs to share?
 
any updates or set backs to share?

None as of this morning. I’m still waiting on some pieces to arrive so that the jigs can be finalized. Since I’m waiting I’ve been busy developing and producing Cummins adapter plates :P

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UGH! I FINALLY have all of the vacuum kit worked out and sourced. I'm including as many OEM pieces as I reasonably can that should be changed with the addition of the turbo. Included is new clamps, new vent hose, new evap hose, new booster check valve and grommet, and new evap check valve and OEM 3.5mm vacuum hose ready to go.

All of these vacuum kits are now assembled and ready to go. ;)

View attachment 1917338


Wow. That's serious dedication to the small details down to the correct OEM clamps. 👏 Solid work Joey.
 
I have literally read every page of this thread as it has progressed and have learned a lot. Thanks again Joey for tackling this. Since we are in a bit of a lull in this thread, I thought now would be a good time to ask a question that I've had regarding the kit's performance at elevation. In the most basic way I can ask...Will an 80 at sea level and an 80 at elevation (say 6600'), each with an identical install of this turbo kit (same psi, no IC), produce the same power?

I ask because I see psi numbers (~7) thrown around which would seemingly make the gains relative to the elevation you are at. There was a post or two that described this relationship as how a SC would operate. I think the answer to my question above is, they both make the same power. Just want to clarify and maybe understand how this is. Thanks.
 
I'm not the authority on the subject, but this is the concept:

A 6psi wastegate will pressurize the intake charge to 6psi absolute pressure. It doesn't "add" 6psi to the atmospheric pressure of wherever you are which is more how a supercharger works. So whether you are at 0 elevation or 8,000 elevation, you will get the the same absolute pressure. To do this, the compressor actually spins a little faster at higher altitude than it would at low altitude, but the result is the same amount of air going into the engine. So at high altitude, the turbo will negate the low atmospheric pressure AND bring you up to 6psi. This is a huge advantage over the supercharger.

However, in your theoretical "same truck, different altitude" scenario, I don't think the performance would be identical because the faster spinning turbo at high altitude would create a little more heat (which robs air density), and it also may take a moment to achieve that higher compressor speed (i.e. it wouldn't spool quite as fast at altitude). But the performance of those two trucks will be very close, not anything like the power loss felt in an N/A or supercharged rig. An intercooler will negate most of the heat effect, but doesn't address the brief moment longer it will take your turbo to get up to speed. Some techy turbos (variable vane) compensate for this.

So the short answer is no, the performance will not be identical, but it will be damn close. Someone at high altitude should see a much bigger gain by installing a turbo than someone at low altitude, but low altitude will always have a slight overall performance advantage.
 
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Thanks for the input.

I'm sure time will tell once the kit is out and logging miles on 80s across the country, but is there a stronger IC argument for those at elevation then? Or is this really just a minor consideration as long as your cooling system is solid? I do not want an IC and prefer to keep the system simple. I am just trying to get my ducks in a row for when it's time to pull the trigger.
 
My personal experience (also high altitude and mostly driving I-70 in CO) was that the IC really makes the whole thing shine. Having run with essentially no intercooler (actually an un-vented A:A intercooler under the hood with no airflow) for a while, and then a properly functioning and ventilated intercooler, I would consider it an essential part of the package and personally wouldn't bother running without one. That's just my subjective experience, but I'm sure not everyone would agree. I tend to push it more than the average LC driver :eek:

:edit: I can't really say if the altitude is a factor in the opinion posted above ^ It may just be my driving preferences.
 
I'm not the authority on the subject, but this is the concept:

A 6psi wastegate will pressurize the intake charge to 6psi absolute pressure. It doesn't "add" 6psi to the atmospheric pressure of wherever you are which is more how a supercharger works. So whether you are at 0 elevation or 8,000 elevation, you will get the the same absolute pressure. To do this, the compressor actually spins a little faster at higher altitude than it would at low altitude, but the result is the same amount of air going into the engine. So at high altitude, the turbo will negate the low atmospheric pressure AND bring you up to 6psi. This is a huge advantage over the supercharger.

However, in your theoretical "same truck, different altitude" scenario, I don't think the performance would be identical because the faster spinning turbo at high altitude would create a little more heat (which robs air density), and it also may take a moment to achieve that higher compressor speed (i.e. it wouldn't spool quite as fast at altitude). But the performance of those two trucks will be very close, not anything like the power loss felt in an N/A or supercharged rig. An intercooler will negate most of the heat effect, but doesn't address the brief moment longer it will take your turbo to get up to speed. Some techy turbos (variable vane) compensate for this.

So the short answer is no, the performance will not be identical, but it will be damn close. Someone at high altitude should see a much bigger gain by installing a turbo than someone at low altitude, but low altitude will always have a slight overall performance advantage.

You are using the term absolute pressure, but you are describing gauge pressure.

If you add 6 psi to "low atmospheric pressure" of say 10.9 psi at 8000 feet, the absolute pressure is 16.9 psi(a).

If you add 6 psi to "high atmospheric pressure" of 14.7 psi at sea level, the absolute pressure is 20.7 psi(a).

In both scenarios, the turbo is producing 6 psi(g), or gauge pressure.

The difference as I understand it is that a supercharger is a fixed volume blower at a given rpm, and as the air density decreases as elevation increases, the supercharger is flowing less air volume, which translates into less pressure. A turbo is a variable volume device, so its speed will increase as necessary to compensate for changes in load and altitude in order to maintain a pressure up to its maximum setting, which is determined by the wastegate.
 
I pulled the term absolute pressure out of my rear, so if it is an actual technical term, there is a good chance I am mis-using it. :hillbilly:

I'm not sure if I agree with your analogy, but perhaps someone like Ryan can clarify.
 
BTW, sorry about the lack of updates. There is stuff going on in the background but it’s not terrible exciting. It’s just conversations with BW and their distribution network to get me the quantity of turbos I need. It’s also about negotiating shipping and shipping packaging. It’s about making sure I have COMPLETE kits for all those interested and finding cash to purchase all the little bits and bobs.

Things are moving but right now is the unsexy stuff.
 
A while ago I made the point about absolute pressure vs gauge pressure but it wasn't well received.
 
A while ago I made the point about absolute pressure vs gauge pressure but it wasn't well received.

Yeah it looks like a lot of these points have already been hashed...you even used almost the same numbers I did!

My understanding is that a turbo provides boost relative to the atmospheric pressure, not absolute.

At 6000' the atmospheric pressure is ~11.8psi, so with 6psi of boost = 17.8psi total
At sea level the atmospheric pressure is ~14.7psi, so with 6psi of boost = 20.8psi total

I'm sure there's a way to build a wastegate that compensates for altitude, who knows maybe one already exists... Its been a few years since I sold my turbo vehicles so I'm a bit out of the loop on the newest tech.

And I made the same point @BILT4ME made a few pages ago...

The difference is that a turbo is free to spin faster and therefore, increase the MASS of air being put into the engine. A positive displacement supercharger has a fixed-volume rotor that can only get so much VOLUME with each rotation. As elevation increases and the density of air goes down, the total mass of air also goes down because the rotor of the supercharger is directly related to the RPM of the engine.

Here is where I got a little lost.

We can disagree, mechanical wastegate will maintain the same absolute pressure, because it is connected to the manifold pressure so to overcome the spring at sea level it will overcome 14.7psi atmosphere + 6psi boost (20.7 absolute) at altitude it will have to overcome 11.7psi atmosphere + 9psi boost (same 20.7psi absolute)

I don't understand how a spring can behave in the way described above. The spring is exerting a force on the wastegate to keep it closed which is constant regardless of altitude. It has to be, it's physics. F=kx. The k is the same and the x is the same. That force is resisting the force trying to open the wastegate, namely the manifold pressure venting to atmospheric pressure. That pressure difference exerted over the surface of the wastegate is also a force. The area is constant so the only thing varying the force is the pressure ratio between manifold pressure and atmospheric pressure.

So the wastegate spring establishes a maximum manifold GAUGE pressure which is always added to the local atmospheric pressure, so the ABSOLUTE pressure can vary depending on elevation (from 17-21 psi(a) as shown above). But you will always see 6 psi (or whatever) on the gauge. You won't see the gauge go up to 9 psi just because you are running at 6000 feet above sea level.
 
Damn! Had no clue

While I can't say my experience warrants the strength of @Nors words, I can echo @cary's experience. I brought my 80 in to get the front brakes done and do a general service (oil change, tire rotation). I dropped it off in the morning and got a ride from Gary into town (Sonoma) to work remotely until it was done. He told me to call him around noon to check in as it should be wrapped up around then. When I called, he said they were still working on it and to call back a couple hours later. Repeated this process twice more only to finally be picked up at 6:00 PM! I came back to his shop to a bill of over $2k. He had done all sorts of work that was uncovered during the front brake work. Now, I probably would have give him the green light to proceed with MOST of what he had done (except rebuilding my e-brake?), but never during our multiple check-ins did he ask for approval to do additional work. At least with me, he seemed to assume I had given him carte blanche. It was a real bummer. I also felt backed into a corner because this community is so tight-knit that you don't want to burn any bridges. I've actually held off on even posting this feedback ANYWHERE online for the same reason. That being said, I feel an obligation to warn people that if they do take their vehicle to him, to be explicit about what you want done and get it in writing that you want to give approval before any other work gets done. When I got back, my wife was absolutely livid, and for good reason. She threw out the question: "What if we were living paycheck to paycheck?". It's just a really unfortunately assumption that someone who brings your vehicle to them can afford whatever maintenance you decide is necessary to complete in that moment. Again, I most likely would have approved most of the work (and I even had them proceed with replacing a master cylinder at the last minute because their mechanic felt like it was starting to go), but not being given the power to choose really rubs me the wrong way.

To top it off, when I did finally get back to the shop, they had completely forgotten about the oil change and the tire rotation was never done.

To throw a bit more salt on the would, two months after the work was done I was driving to a trailhead (having only done about two hours of mild off-roading in the two months since the work) and heard this HORRIBLE screeching from my front DS hub. One of my rotor bolts had completely fallen out and the other was super loose. Thankfully, the front tow point bolts use the same threading (but are a bit longer) so I was able to steal a bolt from there, add a couple washers and keep going.

On the positive, Gary is a die-hard Cruiser fan and seems to a do a lot of good for the community as well. He also seems to always answers his phone, which was greatly appreciated when I was in a pickle on a trail once.

Bottom line: I have reasons to question both the ethics of the shop and the quality of the work. Even if I could get over that, my wife has banned me from going back. So, next time I have serious work that needs to be done, instead of an easy 20 minute drive, I'll most likely be driving almost two hours to Stockton to give Valley Hybrids / Cruiser Brothers my business.
 
So the wastegate spring establishes a maximum manifold GAUGE pressure which is always added to the local atmospheric pressure, so the ABSOLUTE pressure can vary depending on elevation (from 17-21 psi(a) as shown above). But you will always see 6 psi (or whatever) on the gauge. You won't see the gauge go up to 9 psi just because you are running at 6000 feet above sea level.

We are on the same page, at the time I felt like I was beating my head against the wall! :bang:

In any case a turbo will be a major improvement especially at high elevation, it just won't be the same power at elevation as sea level (even though the boost gauge will read the same at both).
 
Wastegate is not on the intake manifold side it is on the exhaust side.

To open it you have to have a certain amount of exhaust gas pressure, if you are not feeding in enough intake pressure you will not reach the exhaust gas pressure required to open the wastegate. That is going to be the same intake absolute pressure regardless of altitude to equal the exhaust gas pressure required to open the wastegate.

Yeah it looks like a lot of these points have already been hashed...you even used almost the same numbers I did!


And I made the same point @BILT4ME made a few pages ago...



Here is where I got a little lost.



I don't understand how a spring can behave in the way described above. The spring is exerting a force on the wastegate to keep it closed which is constant regardless of altitude. It has to be, it's physics. F=kx. The k is the same and the x is the same. That force is resisting the force trying to open the wastegate, namely the manifold pressure venting to atmospheric pressure. That pressure difference exerted over the surface of the wastegate is also a force. The area is constant so the only thing varying the force is the pressure ratio between manifold pressure and atmospheric pressure.

So the wastegate spring establishes a maximum manifold GAUGE pressure which is always added to the local atmospheric pressure, so the ABSOLUTE pressure can vary depending on elevation (from 17-21 psi(a) as shown above). But you will always see 6 psi (or whatever) on the gauge. You won't see the gauge go up to 9 psi just because you are running at 6000 feet above sea level.
 
Lets not forget, a supercharger takes horsepower to make horsepower. Ive seen (on a dyno) on the sane setup blower vs turbo, the blower eats 800hp. Thst was on a 3k~ hp big block. You could hear it too, turbo engine didn’t sound as pissed off.

In our application, it may take 20hp at wot to spin the turbine on a sc, where a turbo may only eat a negligible amount. Reality, a 6psi turbo setup and a 6psi blower setup, iat(intake air temps) being equal, youll see more power out of the turbo. Turbo creates more heat(heat soak off the turbo from the exhaust) than a blower, so at times they become more equal.
 

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