Battle of the LT A/T (1 Viewer)

[Madtiger]

“You must be laughing all the way down the road because you're the one that has to live with the the wrong tire for your aspirational malling? Constantly second guessing yourself and chasing tire threads? Just as you made the wrong choice with the AT43?

I've been 100% happy with my choices. Please keep to your own echo chamber and leave me out of it.”



@TeCKis300 how can I leave you out? You have been instrumental in passing along wrong info for years. I am just trying to help you help others.

Were you 100% happy with your Falkens? Why change? Same reason why I am debating between my two/three choices in the future.

Malling? hey keep posting those pics of you on dirt roads and those mighty 35” AT3 meats with mismatch spare. Real off-roaders only use mismatch spare to increase their difficulty quotient!

 

[TeCKis300]

“You must be laughing all the way down the road because you're the one that has to live with the the wrong tire for your aspirational malling? Constantly second guessing yourself and chasing tire threads? Just as you made the wrong choice with the AT43?

I've been 100% happy with my choices. Please keep to your own echo chamber and leave me out of it.”



@TeCKis300 how can I leave you out? You have been instrumental in passing along wrong info for years. I am just trying to help you help others.

Were you 100% happy with your Falkens? Why change? Same reason why I am debating between my two/three choices in the future.

Malling? I am pretty sure that I have more off-road miles than you. But hey keep posting those pics of you on dirt roads and those mighty 35” AT3 meats with mismatch spare.

It's obvious you fail at reading comprehension. For the sake of others, KO2s are a great tire. Other tires being great at other things doesn't take away from KO2s. They are just not for me because as I've said many times, been there done that on my LX470, and have decided there are better choices for my priorities including snow, wet, on-road handling, and NVH. Having run all 3x now: Falken's, Toyo's, and KO2s, for my needs, I'd put them in that order.

How many of them have you actually run? Tell us more embarrassing things.

 

[bloc]

Ill do the torque set again myself however one of yall posted the project farm vid on budget wrenches and i have two lexivons lol. I might cry twice soon but for this application ill wing it.

Should be fine in this application.

 

[Madtiger]

@TeCKis300

On my previous rig (G500) I had BFG KO, Michelin AT, Firestone MT, and BFG MT. My favorite was actually Firestone……until it developed the flat spot.

And no, I never posed my truck with one wheel on a tiny pebble for pics. Never. Because that is pretty lame. But you do you.

This is my pebble…and unlike @TeCKis300 , i actually went right over it….

 

[TCM]

This thread has become unnecessarily argumentative. When it comes to tires, one man's treasure is another man's trash. We all have our preferences. Those preferences don't mean one tire is actually better than another. Certainly there are tires that don't meet the minimum threshold for quality and function, but the offerings from the brands typically used by members of this forum are all reasonable choices that will function competently. This includes but is not limited to in no particular order Michelin/BFG, Toyo/Nitto, Bridgestone/Firestone, Sumitomo/Dunlop/Falken, Goodyear, Cooper, Continental/General, Yokohama, Nokia, Kenda. None of these companies make junk tires, conversely none of them are immune from issues. They all have different attributes that should be evaluated based on use case, needs/wants and informed by prior experience. The list of potential choices is narrowed considerably given the usual range of sizes that fit the LC 200. Decide on size and pick a tire. If it does not fulfill expectations try something else.

 

[TeCKis300]

@TeCKis300

On my previous rig (G500) I had BFG KO, Michelin AT, Firestone MT, and BFG MT. My favorite was actually Firestone……until it developed the flat spot.

And no, I never posed my truck with one wheel on a tiny pebble for pics. Never. Because that is pretty lame. But you do you.

This is my pebble…and unlike @TeCKis300 , i actually went right over it….

View attachment 2918937

Then you should try one of the new tires

 

[Angelo1]

 

[AnyMal]

This thread has become unnecessarily argumentative. When it comes to tires, one man's treasure is another man's trash. We all have our preferences. Those preferences don't mean one tire is actually better than another. Certainly there are tires that don't meet the minimum threshold for quality and function, but the offerings from the brands typically used by members of this forum are all reasonable choices that will function competently. This includes but is not limited to in no particular order Michelin/BFG, Toyo/Nitto, Bridgestone/Firestone, Sumitomo/Dunlop/Falken, Goodyear, Cooper, Continental/General, Yokohama, Nokia, Kenda. None of these companies make junk tires, conversely none of the are immune from issues. They all have different attributes that should be evaluated based on use case, needs/wants and informed by prior experience. The list of potential choices is narrowed considerably given the usual range of sizes that fit the LC 200. Decide on size and pick a tire. If it does not fulfill expectations try something else.

Let me course correct maybe.

I wonder how much further tread pattern science can go? Does age and recency make a big difference? Are compounds stagnate or standardized? But then again i do want to hear if something sucks more than the oft repeated praises when tires are close to $500 a piece these days!

BTW youve named good companies but there are definitely some trash brands out there too.

What do i know though, i only go to costco.

 

[bloc]

Last week I slept in my truck at the top of wolf creek pass. When I parked there was a good 8" of snow on the ground. When I woke up, another 14" had fallen. The snow was up to my sliders.

After getting snowboard boots and pants on to clear the fresh snow off the cruiser so I could see where I was going, I was already thinking about having to dig myself out. I was about 200 yards from the road that had been plowed.

Even without airing down I drove right out, almost as if there was no snow at all. This without airing down or anything. The tires did amazingly well on subsequent trips up and down wolf creek pass from pagosa springs.. at one point with road conditions so bad a dually pulling a boat got stuck on something you could barely tell was a hill. Meanwhile other than the switchbacks I was comfortably able to exceed the dry speed limit driving on packed snow. I've never driven with real snow tires but if they are even better.. holy crap.

Would P-metric AT3s have done better? or Ko2s? AT3Ws? No clue. But I was extremely happy with how the toyos did in those conditions. Yes some of this confidence comes from the fantastic AWD system of the landcruiser. But the rubber on the road (or snow/ice) is critical, and I am left very happy with the decision to run these tires.

n=1

 

[TCM]

Let me course correct maybe.

I wonder how much further tread pattern science can go? Does age and recency make a big difference? Are compounds stagnate or standardized? But then again i do want to hear if something sucks more than the oft repeated praises when tires are close to $500 a piece these days!

BTW youve named good companies but there are definitely some trash brands out there too.

What do i know though, i only go to costco.

Indeed there are dubious tires brands which should be avoided. A "brand that shall not be named" came out of the blue and was making the rounds on the Wranglers and Tacomas of Instagram bros starting a few years back. They have quietly all but disappeared now, cough, Milestar. Of course the influencers just quietly replaced them with a proper tire never mentioning how terrible they actually were.

Advances in rubber compounds are a large source of tire improvements. Compounds are the "hard" part of tire science and require the highest commitment of knowledge, money, labor and time. The large tire companies definitely have the advantage over smaller companies in their ability to invest in research and development. A tire recently introduced to the market by any of the major players will have a more advanced rubber compound than older tires either from their own catalog or that of the competition. And the compound impacts tread life, wet traction, dry traction, resistance to cuts/chipping and rolling efficiency. In some cases a manufacturer may even introduce a new compound into an existing tire design as a rolling change without any marketing announcement. Unfortunately we are left in the dark in this regard.

 

[highfructose]

Indeed there are dubious tires brands which should be avoided. A "brand that shall not be named" came out of the blue and was making the rounds on the Wranglers and Tacomas of Instagram bros starting a few years back. They have quietly all but disappeared now, cough, Milestar. Of course the influencers just quietly replaced them with a proper tire never mentioning how terrible they actually were.

Advances in rubber compounds are a large source of tire improvements. Compounds are the "hard" part of tire science and require the highest commitment of knowledge, money, labor and time. The large tire companies definitely have the advantage over smaller companies in their ability to invest in research and development. A tire recently introduced to the market by any of the major players will have a more advanced rubber compound than older tires either from their own catalog or that of the competition. And the compound impacts tread life, wet traction, dry traction, resistance to cuts/chipping and rolling efficiency. In some cases a manufacturer may even introduce a new compound into an existing tire design as a rolling change without any marketing announcement. Unfortunately we are left in the dark in this regard.

This has “face validity…” as in it makes sense as a narrative on its face.

But I would want to have actual info on this potential new compound because the following narrative also has “face validity:”

There was a large gap between the “aesthetics, weight, and tread aggressiveness” of a Michelin defender and a bfg k02. The market demanded a more aggressive LOOKING tire than a Michelin…yet a lighter quieter one than a k02.

So Michelin decided to pump out a tire that is literally just a halfway point between those…even though it doesn’t have any new compounds of rubber in it. It’s just a lighter duty k02 that is quieter and weighs less.

Even if the above is true, it’s still a good tire and it’s at the top of my list. The k02, for my needs, is heavier duty than necessary. The michelin defenders look unnecessarily bland.

 

[Tex68w]

A "brand that shall not be named" came out of the blue and was making the rounds on the Wranglers and Tacomas of Instagram bros starting a few years back. They have quietly all but disappeared now, cough, Milestar. Of course the influencers just quietly replaced them with a proper tire never mentioning how terrible they actually were.

I remember that crap, the Jeep Bros went hard on that bait and I couldn't believe how much traction they got simply based on IG and Youtube influencers. I am glad to see that they are all but gone and most are speaking out against them now.

 

[Madtiger]

I remember that crap, the Jeep Bros went hard on that bait and I couldn't believe how much traction they got simply based on IG and Youtube influencers. I am glad to see that they are all but gone and most are speaking out against them now.

What was the name of the tire?

 

[Madtiger]

The large tire companies definitely have the advantage over smaller companies in their ability to invest in research and development. A tire recently introduced to the market by any of the major players will have a more advanced rubber compound than older tires either from their own catalog or that of the competition. And the compound impacts tread life, wet traction, dry traction, resistance to cuts/chipping and rolling efficiency. In some cases a manufacturer may even introduce a new compound into an existing tire design as a rolling change without any marketing announcement. Unfortunately we are left in the dark in this regard.

I agree with the first statement.

But to assume that all new tires are superior to older tires just because they are newer and thus must have some breakthrough compound is stretching it i think.

For example, Falken AT3W is a fairly new tire (relative to KO2 or Yoko GO15). Good looking. Plenty of press to show off it’s design. How the tread rolls over the sidewall etc. And, on top of all that, it is dirt cheap! What more can you ask for, right?

Except…most of AT3W sizes are strangely heavy as hell. And some of the weights are all over the place. LT that is lighter than P-metric. Weird specs! As it turns out, Falken uses cheap regular steel plies instead of lighter weight high-tensile steel plies that other bigger companies are using. They did this to keep prices low. But they never mentioned this in their press release nor website. And as it turned out, AT3W sidewall is about as weak as Duratrac’s legendary Swiss cheese sidewall!

Or take Toyo AT3…brand spanking new! Joe Bacal was involved and tested it since day one. They claim to be best on market thru extensive research and development. Heck, Mr. Bacal even boasted how superior AT3 was over everyone else. Well, a quick search showed that AT3 took 2 years to develop. That’s awfully short development cycle I think.

And then TireRack did their editor’s review and showed that it has major shortcoming in wet weather. Oh and it is noisy as hell.

So, what happened to these two very newly designed tires? Advance compound? Resistance to chip? I would bet that Michelin Defender sidewall is stronger than these two!

My theory…these two tires were rushed to market. They cut corners to keep prices down. Why do you think BFG or Yokohama or Michelin takes so long between cycles to redesign their tires? All 3 of these companies face intense competition yet their redesign cycles are at least 5-10 years!

 

[bloc]

My theory…these two tires were rushed to market. They cut corners to keep prices down. Why do you think BFG or Yokohama or Michelin takes so long between cycles to redesign their tires? All 3 of these companies face intense competition yet their redesign cycles are at least 5-10 years!

How much did each of these companies spend on the projects in those timeframes?

 

[Madtiger]

How much did each of these companies spend on the projects in those timeframes?

Given that BFG KO lineup and Michelin Defender (offspring of LTX MS lineup) are major players in their class AND major moneymaker, i would bet that a lot of R&D went into these tires!

BFG KO is legendary and is used in racing. It is the literally the face of BFG (aka Michelin off-road branch)…i would even say that KO lineup is the most important tire for BFG by far. Defender is LTX MS…again, the face of Michelin SUV/truck division.

For Yokohama, G015 is just legendary when you go to small towns. Despite its age, it is still being compared to…see recent TireRack comparison. It is the off-spring of Yoko AT-S, also quite well known in its time. For SUV/trucks, i cannot think of another tire as popular in Yokohama lineup. The new X-AT is more of a direct attack on KO2 but it is so over-board in construction (and price to reflect that) that it is just not practical for most SUV/truck owners. Thus, G015 remains in the line-up and remains Yoko’s best selling SUV/truck tire I think.

 

[Tex68w]

What was the name of the tire?

Patagonia Milestar. It looks like they got enough press and traction from flooding them with influencers to up their prices, $400+ for a 35" from Discount Tire now lol. A few years back you could get a 35" tire for under $200, now they think they can be priced with the big boys when they've proven to be crap.

 

[AnyMal]

I agree with the first statement.

But to assume that all new tires are superior to older tires just because they are newer and thus must have some breakthrough compound is stretching it i think.

For example, Falken AT3W is a fairly new tire (relative to KO2 or Yoko GO15). Good looking. Plenty of press to show off it’s design. How the tread rolls over the sidewall etc. And, on top of all that, it is dirt cheap! What more can you ask for, right?

Except…most of AT3W sizes are strangely heavy as hell. And some of the weights are all over the place. LT that is lighter than P-metric. Weird specs! As it turns out, Falken uses cheap regular steel plies instead of lighter weight high-tensile steel plies that other bigger companies are using. They did this to keep prices low. But they never mentioned this in their press release nor website. And as it turned out, AT3W sidewall is about as weak as Duratrac’s legendary Swiss cheese sidewall!

Or take Toyo AT3…brand spanking new! Joe Bacal was involved and tested it since day one. They claim to be best on market thru extensive research and development. Heck, Mr. Bacal even boasted how superior AT3 was over everyone else. Well, a quick search showed that AT3 took 2 years to develop. That’s awfully short development cycle I think.

And then TireRack did their editor’s review and showed that it has major shortcoming in wet weather. Oh and it is noisy as hell.

So, what happened to these two very newly designed tires? Advance compound? Resistance to chip? I would bet that Michelin Defender sidewall is stronger than these two!

My theory…these two tires were rushed to market. They cut corners to keep prices down. Why do you think BFG or Yokohama or Michelin takes so long between cycles to redesign their tires? All 3 of these companies face intense competition yet their redesign cycles are at least 5-10 years!

Theres questions to be answered and assumptions to be addressed here like i was saying. These are industry insider data. I also dont know if i trust the retailers reviews all that much. In the case of wet traction between A/T 3 and KO2 it seems the consumer is in disagreement on that big time including myself and others here.

Like bloc was saying, for me, in last years winter storm, i went up iced over hills that should have been impossible in my mind without chains or studs. I shouldnt even have been out playing around as my neighborhood was way way too steep for those conditions. At least 30 cars were abandoned at the bottom of the steep hills sweeping turns. The fully chained firetruck almost took out a house coming off the road and was stuck for a week! Every single one of them must know what they were doing and all drive huge built up trucks parked proudly outside the station. This was a big reason ive been such an advocate, otherwise i would have kept quiet on advising others.

At the same time i got burned by their false advertising on the P and had to cough up about $500 to have LTs swapped. But at least that gave me the opportunity to put the nail in my LT reservations coffin. Another culprit here though is BFG and the silent switching of compounds during the KO2 life cycle and warranty/durability issues some folks were having. I dont think anyone is free from sneaky s***. I also think they are all using the same carcasses as a lot of their lineups have identical specs and build characteristics. Down to the size, weight and dimensions, identical across many models and brands. I know that these are standardized but suspiciously they are identically short the nominal size and all other specs match. Theres more to this im sure. BFG seems to be unique in that regard as well as yokohama, probs some others. You can clearly see the KO2 is built different and im kind of obsessive about that now. Wish i knew more of the secrets. Dont dismiss toyo though, they have a strong heritage and a big fan base right here and just won dakkar!

 

[AnyMal]

Patagonia Milestar. It looks like they got enough press and traction from flooding them with influencers to up their prices, $400+ for a 35" from Discount Tire now lol. A few years back you could get a 35" tire for under $200, now they think they can be priced with the big boys when they've proven to be crap.

I liked the look of it at least. Now they have a mt 2.0 and their own websites description basically admits to all of the problems of the first in a pretty hilariously direct manner.

“wont rip apart” type of verbiage.

 

[AnyMal]

Thanks!
I suspected some of these things and dismissed them, glad im not being overly critical. It was indeed first rotation and Lexus should have done everything on the lift and that may be just what happened. I asked them when i scheduled if they pulled spare into the mix and they did not (I checked) that was my first hunch actually that the unspun wheel may have never been zeroed properly.

Ill do the torque set again myself however one of yall posted the project farm vid on budget wrenches and i have two lexivons lol. I might cry twice soon but for this application ill wing it.

@bloc that mustve been it. Smooth up to 90mph and I’m not ever in any more of a hurry than that. At least that was my last free 2 years of service visit… Theres so much more peace of mind doing things yourself. No comparison.