Battle of the LT A/T (1 Viewer)

[bloc]

Given that BFG KO lineup and Michelin Defender (offspring of LTX MS lineup) are major players in their class AND major moneymaker, i would bet that a lot of R&D went into these tires!

BFG KO is legendary and is used in racing. It is the literally the face of BFG (aka Michelin off-road branch)…i would even say that KO lineup is the most important tire for BFG by far. Defender is LTX MS…again, the face of Michelin SUV/truck division.

For Yokohama, G015 is just legendary when you go to small towns. Despite its age, it is still being compared to…see recent TireRack comparison. It is the off-spring of Yoko AT-S, also quite well known in its time. For SUV/trucks, i cannot think of another tire as popular in Yokohama lineup. The new X-AT is more of a direct attack on KO2 but it is so over-board in construction (and price to reflect that) that it is just not practical for most SUV/truck owners. Thus, G015 remains in the line-up and remains Yoko’s best selling SUV/truck tire I think.

But it is plausible to say toyo may have put a “lot” of R&D (aka money) into their offerings even if it was a compressed schedule compared to bfg?

To a point the timeframe needed to develop a tire can be overcome by budget, if that’s what the company prioritizes. And none of us know what each company spent developing their respective tires.

So 2 years vs 5-10 doesn’t mean anything to me, personally.

 

[bloc]

@bloc that mustve been it. Smooth up to 90mph and I’m not ever in any more of a hurry than that. At least that was my last free 2 years of service visit… Theres so much more peace of mind doing things yourself. No comparison.

Good to hear. And another lesson learned.

 

[Madtiger]

But it is plausible to say toyo may have put a “lot” of R&D (aka money) into their offerings even if it was a compressed schedule compared to bfg?

To a point the timeframe needed to develop a tire can be overcome by budget, if that’s what the company prioritizes. And none of us know what each company spent developing their respective tires.

So 2 years vs 5-10 doesn’t mean anything to me, personally.

Maybe plausible…but it is far more plausible that R&D budget of a big company like Michelin/BFG is much higher than what Toyo can budget out for a tire lineup. Again these tires from Michelin and BFG are flagship-level tires that are literally the face of their respective company.

I just don’t think that you can overlook that and assume that Toyo does more and Michelin is run by a bunch of fools who love to waste money. That is not exactly what you’re saying but you get my point. Michelin is not GM!

Small(er) budget plus relatively short time frame of development is not exactly a good thing IMHO. It points to a rush project to capture the wave of new AT owners. That is the likely scenario IMHO rather than what you wrote. But we may never know.

 

[bloc]

Maybe plausible…but it is far more plausible that R&D budget of a big company like Michelin/BFG is much higher than what Toyo can budget out for a tire lineup. Again these tires from Michelin and BFG are flagship-level tires that are literally the face of their respective company.

I just don’t think that you can overlook that and assume that Toyo does more and Michelin is run by a bunch of fools who love to waste money. That is not exactly what you’re saying but you get my point. Michelin is not GM!

Small(er) budget plus relatively short time frame of development is not exactly a good thing IMHO. It points to a rush project to capture the wave of new AT owners. That is the likely scenario IMHO rather than what you wrote. But we may never know.

It’s all hypotheticals, including a 5-10yr development cycle necessarily being better than a 2 year one, especially when considering potential advances in compound.

Oh and I like my AT3s more than my KO2s. So…

 

[AnyMal]

Maybe plausible…but it is far more plausible that R&D budget of a big company like Michelin/BFG is much higher than what Toyo can budget out for a tire lineup. Again these tires from Michelin and BFG are flagship-level tires that are literally the face of their respective company.

I just don’t think that you can overlook that and assume that Toyo does more and Michelin is run by a bunch of fools who love to waste money. That is not exactly what you’re saying but you get my point. Michelin is not GM!

Small(er) budget plus relatively short time frame of development is not exactly a good thing IMHO. It points to a rush project to capture the wave of new AT owners. That is the likely scenario IMHO rather than what you wrote. But we may never know.

Another point may be that in the K02 - K03 cycle, Toyo puts out an A/T 2-4…

Agile development might be at play. Iterative release.

 

[Madtiger]

It’s all hypotheticals, including a 5-10yr development cycle necessarily being better than a 2 year one, especially when considering potential advances in compound.

Oh and I like my AT3s more than my KO2s. So…

I guess the “advances in compound” did not translate to wet traction nor lower noise?

 

[TCM]

It cannot be assumed that because BFG updates the AT on a roughly ten year schedule that they are actually working on the development of the new version during that entire 10 years. The likely scenario is that they release a new version of the AT and then reallocate R&D resources to other tire models. After competitive pressure builds they again focus on the AT over a 2 or 3 year period before releasing the next update.

 

[grinchy]

This chart makes me happy. These tires are definitely superior.
Says so right on the manufacturer’s website.
Competitor B
Competitor C
Competitor T

 

[AnyMal]

It cannot be assumed that because BFG updates the AT on a roughly ten year schedule that they are actually working on the development of the new version during that entire 10 years. The likely scenario is that they release a new version of the AT and then reallocate R&D resources to other tire models. After competitive pressure builds they again focus on the AT over a 2 or 3 year period before releasing the next update.

Yes most likely developments trickle up or down, and tooling etc catches up to the lower volume/margin products.

 

[Madtiger]

My bad…

”This fourth generation BFGoodrich all-terrain draws from progress made over the past 40+ years. BFGoodrich launched its first all-terrain tire, the Radial All-Terrain T/A, back in 1976. The All-Terrain T/A KO2 is the first update since 1999. (A testament to the lasting performance and staying power of each generation of BFGoodrich all-terrain tires.)”


Nearly 16 years b/w 3rd gen KO and 4th gen KO2.

 

[AnyMal]

My bad…

”This fourth generation BFGoodrich all-terrain draws from progress made over the past 40+ years. BFGoodrich launched its first all-terrain tire, the Radial All-Terrain T/A, back in 1976. The All-Terrain T/A KO2 is the first update since 1999. (A testament to the lasting performance and staying power of each generation of BFGoodrich all-terrain tires.)”


Nearly 16 years b/w 3rd gen KO and 4th gen KO2.

Damn. That does kind of put me off. Soon as you buy it the new one comes out lol.

 

[bloc]

I guess the “advances in compound” did not translate to wet traction nor lower noise?

Wet traction on one specific road surface during testing? You do realize tread design has far more to do with noise than compound right? Not to mention the impact on wet traction, in concert with compound.

My AT3s have been great in all sorts of conditions, including freeway speeds through torrential downpours, and are surprisingly quiet for what I get out of them.

But don’t let that take away from your memory of when the toyo engineer put gum in your hair on the schoolbus.

 

[TCM]

My bad…

”This fourth generation BFGoodrich all-terrain draws from progress made over the past 40+ years. BFGoodrich launched its first all-terrain tire, the Radial All-Terrain T/A, back in 1976. The All-Terrain T/A KO2 is the first update since 1999. (A testament to the lasting performance and staying power of each generation of BFGoodrich all-terrain tires.)”


Nearly 16 years b/w 3rd gen KO and 4th gen KO2.

This can rightly be called resting on your laurels. BFG couldn't be bothered to update the tire until they finally felt the pressure of competition. And in today's market the competition has increased even more.

 

[Madtiger]

This can rightly be called resting on your laurels. BFG couldn't be bothered to update the tire until they finally felt the pressure of competition. And in today's market the competition has increased even more.

Yeah will see how long KO2 last before next gen.

For development of KO2, BFG/Michelin even patented sidewall test: US20120245859A1 - Method of determining sidewall aggression performance parameters - Google Patents - https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120245859A1/en

 

[Madtiger]

Wet traction on one specific road surface during testing? You do realize tread design has far more to do with noise than compound right? Not to mention the impact on wet traction, in concert with compound.

My AT3s have been great in all sorts of conditions, including freeway speeds through torrential downpours, and are surprisingly quiet for what I get out of them.

But don’t let that take away from your memory of when the toyo engineer put gum in your hair on the schoolbus.

I am just saying that for a tire that came late…it sure lack certain things.

And btw, that toyo engineer got detention….

 

[Itsky]

@Madtiger I can't tell if your trolling, or if you really believe it, but, what does it matter how long the expressed/implied/actual R&D timeline is in years?

That doesn't mean jack, for a multitude of reasons.

Who got the better college education?

Ben F Goodrich - San Diego State 96-08 (12 year plan)
T OYA - San Diego State 15-18 (3 yr graduated early)

 

[bubbaZR2]

I'm still using the iPhone 1. With only a year between the new models there is no way they had enough time to develop the new ones properly.

 

[NoClue]

Chiming in with this again. These mickey thompson baja boss A/T's have been incredible in every condition i've put them through.

 

[CO18Cruiser]

Also nokian is releasing a new all terrain that looks like a solid performer. Although not as hardcore off roader as the k02...etc. Looking forward to hearing how it performs.

Nokian Tyres Outpost AT - Extend your adventures / Nokian Tires

The Nokian Tyres Outpost AT offers supreme traction in all conditions, extreme durability and puncture resistance, and increased service life so drivers can extend their terrain, toughness and travel.

www.nokiantires.com

l‘ve had Hakka‘s forever. Intrigued and interested in the Outpost ATs. Shame at this point they aren’t launching in a 285-60-18. LC OE tire size aside, ton of pickups run the same size. Seem to be cutting themselves out of a chunk of the market.

 

[karprive]

Is there a good AT tire for wet conditions? Seems like all of these are rated sub-par.

So, is there a consensus on this?

I've basically been considering the 3 tires listed in this survey because most of my research is from posts in this forum. I had KOs on my 2010 FJ and really liked them, so automatically thought KO2s for my LC200, but got scared off by the many comments about it being horrible in wet conditions, old design, noise, etc. I feel like I see the most varied responses for the KO2s on this forum.

So, I then figured the Toyo AT3s or the Falken AT3Ws are the ones to get...but, crossed off the Falkens after reading about the compound change (no clue if this is true) and their use of lower quality materials...which made the Toyos the only remaining contender, but then I see some YouTube video from TireRack saying that it isn't very good in wet conditions and came in last in their comparison test...

I'm currently at the point of having to reconsider all these brands again as well as throwing in some other names like Coopers, Nittos, Generals, and now maybe even the Yokohamas and Michelins...

Help? My use case is that my LC is a daily driver. It's completely stock now, but will see less mall parking lots after getting new tires and maybe a suspension kit (which has also been driving me crazy with all the different comments and limited availabilities).

One more question...do most prefer Load E ? Tire shops are trying to get me to buy P-metric or C...not sure if this is because these versions are actually preferred or because Load E is out of stock. I'm leaning towards E, so please tell me if I'm wrong here. I think my FJ Trail Teams came with stock KOs that were Load E, so figured I'd stick with E.

Thanks in advance.