(Another) Front suspension noise/steering rack question (1 Viewer)

[linuxgod]

Back in late November or early December I noticed my steering wheel was a bit off center and the truck was starting to drift right if I let go of the wheel. Before this (after Slee did an alignment when I got new shocks in August) the truck drove so straight I could let go of the steering wheel on the highway for 15 or 20 seconds and stay in the lane. I thought maybe my wife had hit a pothole hard (living in the city) and knocked something out of alignment, though all the marks Slee put on every adjustment location still line up.

Fast forward a few weeks. Since early December I've been hearing a metallic "pop" when I pull in and out of my garage (which is off an alley so it's a 90 degree turn to get in. I will sometimes hear it when I pull into a parking space, though not always. Example: Backing out straight and once I partially clear the garage door I turn to back out (though not full lock). Typically as I start to descend the garage apron (which is maybe 3" above the alley) I'll hear a pop. This morning I could feel it in the steering wheel. I don't feel it again until I've turned the wheel the other direction and started going forward. It can happen when I park in a normal space in a regular parking lot, though I don't hear it every time. I've had my son pull the truck into the garage while I stand next to the truck and I can clearly hear it's coming from somewhere underneath up front but I can't tell where (or even which side).

My son drove the truck over Christmas break and he commented that "the truck wanders a lot more than the Mini". I'm nearly certain that was not true back in September. Last time he and I noticed this (back in May or June) it needed upper balljoints. I definitely agree it's not tracking straight like it should.

Ok so I'm thinking it's a bad tie rod given I really only hear the noise when parking. I did top off the power steering fluid, which was below "min cold" over the weekend. I overfilled it a bit at the time (above "max hot") and this morning it was right at "max hot" after driving 20 minutes. I do likely have a leaking steering rack (the dealer or another shop topped it off a couple years ago). I'm not sure the current rate of fluid loss since it's lower than when I filled it despite the truck being a bit warmer this morning; I had overfilled it by about 1/2" of reservoir about 10 days ago but not sure if overfilling would result in any fluid loss?

This morning I dropped the truck off at the dealer who I've had good luck with in the past. They called me a little bit ago and said they couldn't find any play in the suspension... Bushings are tight, tie rods are good, ball joints are good, etc. They also tried parking it in their lot a few times but couldn't hear the popping noise. They did say "it looks like the steering rack is leaking as the passenger's side boot is wet" (it is... I noticed that when climbing around under the truck this weekend). They also said the LCA bushing sleeves were cracked (I think) but everything is tight and not going anywhere.

Ok so open questions for the group:

1. Anyone had bad LCA bushings (or cam sleeves or whatever) which was making noise?
2. Anyone had a steering rack go bad that was making noise? Given the labor cost I'm not inclined to replace the rack, but if it's likely the bushings are going maybe it's wise to do so given it is leaking fluid
3. Should I be looking somewhere else for this?

I'll try to post a video later but the truck is at the shop right now. The shop asked if I'd like to come by in the morning and drive the service manager around so I can show him what I hear, so I'll likely do that.

 

[bloc]

Have access to chassis ears? Seems the best way to get to the bottom of this.

 

[linuxgod]

I do have chassis ears. It might be interesting to try them and see if I can isolate the noise. When I walked around the truck I really couldn't tell where it's coming from, and it's a quick pop not a continuous noise, so I'm not even sure where to mount the mics or what to listen for except volume of the pop, but I could play around with them.

I went over to the dealer and was able to recreate the noise for the tech driving up a ramp. He seems to think it might be the aftermarket skids making contact as the vehicle flexes. I'm suspect as I don't hear the noise ever except at low speed (parking) turning and/or changing direction, and the issue seemed to start in November... if it was skid contact I'd expect to hear it if I took a turn hard or mashed the brakes or gas pedal, but what do I know? Also the truck has more wander than it should, which could be a separate issue where something came out of alignment, but I tend to not buy into the idea of having 2 separate issues which crop up within a week or two of each other...

They're going to pop the skid off and try the ramp and see if the noise continues now that they can recreate it. I took a look on the lift and the steering rack is definitely leaking quite a bit - the passenger's side inner tie rod boot is pretty soaked with fluid, mostly on the lower side. So ultimately I'm probably going to bite the bullet and replace the rack (which includes inner and outer tie rods). Dealer wants $2690 to do the rack (w/ tie rods) and alignment - which is painful but I know it's not a job I'm going to be able to do in my garage and I also know it's not going to get better (save perhaps for dumping a gallon of stop leak in the system). If the truck had 300k on it I might just use some stop leak and keep it topped off, but she's got a lot of life in her and unless I sell within a few years I'm pretty sure it's going to reach a point I have to do it anyway.

If the noise and looseness/wander persist and it's not the skid and not the rack or tie rods, then I may swap LCAs. On the lift I can clearly see at least one of the LCA cam sleeves looks separated from the bushing. There doesn't seem to be any play in the bushing even with a bunch of leverage against it, but I can't otherwise explain what's wrong and given the upper ball joints were replaced about 10k miles ago I also can't come up with any other reason (aside from bad front bearings) that I'd have that sort of behavior.

 

[edwardg]

I have a similar noise and symptoms on my 2013 (similarly outfitted to yours) that's been difficult to pinpoint or consistently reproduce. Two shops have looked at it but found nothing conclusive. One identified that the heim joints on my UCAs needed replacing, though that didn't mitigate the noise.

To your question, a few years ago we replaced LCA bushings that were causing a similar clunk; they're still in good shape today.

I've been monitoring for about 9 months and it doesn't seem to have gotten worse, though I don't put a ton of miles on. I also consider the rack a suspect given symptoms, but yeah, it's a big job one way or another to replace.

 

[linuxgod]

Thanks @edwardg, if it persists I’ll look at LCAs. And if it goes away with any of this I’ll update the group.

 

[empty80]

So here’s a little “clunk” journey I’ve had recently.

A little while ago, I removed my BP51 coilovers, reduced the amount of preload effectively lowering the truck, and had the alignment done. Then an clunk started creeping in that was felt through the steering wheel. It was more pronounced when turning left.

I went through and retorqued everything that had been touched from my regear on. Nothing was out of spec. I did notice some witness marks on my skid plates from the transmission crossmember, so I did my best to tighten everything up. Still a clunk. I put factory splash guards on. Still clunking. I was beginning to think either the hub bearing or the steering rack.

Unrelated, or so I thought, I removed my BP51s, dropped a set of VDJ spec Toyota coilovers on the truck and the clunk is gone.

 

[4gotalot]

So here’s a little “clunk” journey I’ve had recently.

A little while ago, I removed my BP51 coilovers, reduced the amount of preload effectively lowering the truck, and had the alignment done. Then an clunk started creeping in that was felt through the steering wheel. It was more pronounced when turning left.

I went through and retorqued everything that had been touched from my regear on. Nothing was out of spec. I did notice some witness marks on my skid plates from the transmission crossmember, so I did my best to tighten everything up. Still a clunk. I put factory splash guards on. Still clunking. I was beginning to think either the hub bearing or the steering rack.

Unrelated, or so I thought, I removed my BP51s, dropped a set of VDJ spec Toyota coilovers on the truck and the clunk is gone.

I have a similar noise and symptoms on my 2013 (similarly outfitted to yours) that's been difficult to pinpoint or consistently reproduce. Two shops have looked at it but found nothing conclusive. One identified that the heim joints on my UCAs needed replacing, though that didn't mitigate the noise.

To your question, a few years ago we replaced LCA bushings that were causing a similar clunk; they're still in good shape today.

I've been monitoring for about 9 months and it doesn't seem to have gotten worse, though I don't put a ton of miles on. I also consider the rack a suspect given symptoms, but yeah, it's a big job one way or another to replace.

Sounds like "The dreaded clunk", staring the top rubber mounting bushings supplied with BP51 and Nitrocharger shocks by ARB. The rubber material will loose or never had the right amount of elasticity causing slop in the top mount even if installed properly. The "clunk" has been covered previously in other threads but not for a while.

A quick way to ck for the "clunk" is to remove the nut at the top of the shock shaft and add another proper shock washer on to the top so there are 2 washers on top then reinstall the nut per specs. The additional shock washers are about an 1/8 of an inch thick and will increase the tension on the existing rubber
bushings keeping the pilot washer in place. Also, the OEM pilot washer is a much better fit than the ARB pilot washer.

 

[rlynch356]

on another truck that starts with LR 1-2-... the lower control arm bushing crack pretty easily and this causes a definite Clunk going over bumps and wandering from the movement in the lower control arm... Not saying that is it but, the symptoms are similar. however, and both share an Independent front suspension setup..


In LR world this is common, in Land Cruiser land.. not so much.. thankfully.

Ymmv...

 

[linuxgod]

Sounds like "The dreaded clunk", staring the top rubber mounting bushings supplied with BP51 and Nitrocharger shocks by ARB. The rubber material will loose or never had the right amount of elasticity causing slop in the top mount even if installed properly. The "clunk" has been covered previously in other threads but not for a while.

A quick way to ck for the "clunk" is to remove the nut at the top of the shock shaft and add another proper shock washer on to the top so there are 2 washers on top then reinstall the nut per specs. The additional shock washers are about an 1/8 of an inch thick and will increase the tension on the existing rubber
bushings keeping the pilot washer in place. Also, the OEM pilot washer is a much better fit than the ARB pilot washer.

My BP51s were installed this July and only have <10k in them. The noise sounds like a metallic pop to me, not a clunk, and it only seems to happen when turning very slowly and even that’s not consistent. What inconsistent is changing directions (forward to reverse or vice versa, like pulling into a parking space where you have to stop and back up to straighten) seems to be much more likely to trigger it. Certainly could be related, but I’m not sure it’s the same issue

If it persists when I get the truck back I’ll look at the extra washer. Does the shock have to come out to install or do you put it on top of the mount? I’ll have to look at the old thread on this as I’m struggling to visualize.

 

[linuxgod]

on another truck that starts with LR 1-2-... the lower control arm bushing crack pretty easily and this causes a definite Clunk going over bumps and wandering from the movement in the lower control arm... Not saying that is it but, the symptoms are similar. however, and both share an Independent front suspension setup..


In LR world this is common, in Land Cruiser land.. not so much.. thankfully.

Ymmv...

The LCA bushings are where I’m leaning as well if the steering rack doesn’t fix it. If I wasn’t leaking power steering fluid I would have done these first. But as a techie at heart I like to fix one thing at a time to establish the cause, so since the rack is known bad (leaking) I’m starting there. Worst case is I end up dropping an extra $100 on an second alignment.

 

[BadReligion]

I'd say either the LCA bushing or steering rack bushing. My 100 made the exact same noise you described, especially when changing direction (forward to reverse) and then turning. When replacing the rack, it was obvious the 2 bushings on it were shot. But that was at 150k mi. Since the rack was also leaking, I replaced the whole thing. Doable but not fun. Not sure how hard a rack replacement is on a 200.

 

[linuxgod]

I'd say either the LCA bushing or steering rack bushing. My 100 made the exact same noise you described, especially when changing direction (forward to reverse) and then turning. When replacing the rack, it was obvious the 2 bushings on it were shot. But that was at 150k mi. Since the rack was also leaking, I replaced the whole thing. Doable but not fun. Not sure how hard a rack replacement is on a 200.

It’s not hard to do at all, just write my dealer a check for $2690.

I’m just shy of 150k, so pretty spot on to that mileage. I know the 100 series racks were a weak spot and not a ton of people with 200s doing racks yet but the city beats on the truck pretty hard most of the year so 150k to me may be 250k to others

Seriously though it’s a full day job plus. I’ve seen the FSM. There’s also a special tool which allows you to turn the wheels despite the steering not being connected so you can get the rack in and out.

 

[4gotalot]

My BP51s were installed this July and only have <10k in them. The noise sounds like a metallic pop to me, not a clunk, and it only seems to happen when turning very slowly and even that’s not consistent. What inconsistent is changing directions (forward to reverse or vice versa, like pulling into a parking space where you have to stop and back up to straighten) seems to be much more likely to trigger it. Certainly could be related, but I’m not sure it’s the same issue

If it persists when I get the truck back I’ll look at the extra washer. Does the shock have to come out to install or do you put it on top of the mount? I’ll have to look at the old thread on this as I’m struggling to visualize.

With that last description I don't think your rig has the dreaded "clunk". Turning like you have described was not an indicator for the "clunk".

It would most often make the clunk when going over some thing like a a speed bump in a parking lot or off road, or a sharp 2 inch rise pulling in to the drive way. Driving back and forth over a speed bump is how we located the clunk. I then removed the rear shocks and confirmed. I could grab the top section of the rear shock and pulled up and down and was able to dislodge the pilot washer and it made the clunk when it realigned back into the frame.

Adding a second washer to the stack is just an easy way to add more pressure to the stack for trouble shooting to see if the clunk goes away. The front is easy but the rear nut is not easy to get to and remove and neither is under load except the shocks gas pressure expanding the shock enough to kept in place. ARB sent me new bushings and they did the same thing. SPC UCA's were blamed for clunk the back then. As I mentioned, it has been a while since others have asked about the "clunk". I have left a double stack of washers on all of my ARB shocks only to test the long term effects for the greater good for all.

 

[linuxgod]

Picked up the truck today. Steering is definitely heavier, or at least more initial effort to star turning it. $2800 later the popping sound is gone. Mechanic said there was no play in the tie rods, so either the steering rack bushings were a bit worn or there was a bit of play in the tie rods only under load. In any case it seems to be good, at least with the initial drive - I’ll update if the noise comes back once the truck sits overnight and cools off, but thinking it’s good.

The shop did note that the transfer case skid had a nice dent (yes it does, thanks Doll House) and there were no rubber isolators on the top of the front shocks. Is that a BP51 thing, or did Slee somehow forget to reinstall those?

 

[bloc]

Picked up the truck today. Steering is definitely heavier, or at least more initial effort to star turning it. $2800 later the popping sound is gone. Mechanic said there was no play in the tie rods, so either the steering rack bushings were a bit worn or there was a bit of play in the tie rods only under load. In any case it seems to be good, at least with the initial drive - I’ll update if the noise comes back once the truck sits overnight and cools off, but thinking it’s good.

The shop did note that the transfer case skid had a nice dent (yes it does, thanks Doll House) and there were no rubber isolators on the top of the front shocks. Is that a BP51 thing, or did Slee somehow forget to reinstall those?

New TREs also or did you keep those?

 

[linuxgod]

New TREs also or did you keep those?

Yeah new tres too. They swore the originals were tight tho and wouldn’t have recommended replacements except the rack was leaking and they were part of the “kit”

 

[linuxgod]

This is the part which includes the outer TREs too: 2008-2021 Toyota Land Cruiser Rack and Pinion 44200-60170 | Toyota Parts - https://toyotaparts.ourismantoyotaofrichmond.com/oem-parts/toyota-rack-and-pinion-4420060170

 

[bloc]

Yeah new tres too. They swore the originals were tight tho and wouldn’t have recommended replacements except the rack was leaking and they were part of the “kit”

I can’t understand how but all of my front suspension and steering joints are still tight at 200k. Granted most of that is highway but still..

 

[4gotalot]

Picked up the truck today. Steering is definitely heavier, or at least more initial effort to star turning it. $2800 later the popping sound is gone. Mechanic said there was no play in the tie rods, so either the steering rack bushings were a bit worn or there was a bit of play in the tie rods only under load. In any case it seems to be good, at least with the initial drive - I’ll update if the noise comes back once the truck sits overnight and cools off, but thinking it’s good.

The shop did note that the transfer case skid had a nice dent (yes it does, thanks Doll House) and there were no rubber isolators on the top of the front shocks. Is that a BP51 thing, or did Slee somehow forget to reinstall those?

I would ck with Slee for replacement parts (I'm sure they have lots) and their experience with the bushings.

When the faulty bushings are installed, they look and feel just like any other we have installed for many years but after getting compressed and rebound the bushings act more like old latex rubber tubing and may have parted ways. My rear lower ARB shock mount bushings reminded me of Silly Putty when I was trouble shooting the "clunk". Rob had some pictures of augered out frames after the bushings departed on some of the trucks he had worked on. I would inspect the frame with a mirror, replace and secure the new bushings and treat that area and the other 3 shock mount assembly's like a preventive mx inspection item.

 

[linuxgod]

I can’t understand how but all of my front suspension and steering joints are still tight at 200k. Granted most of that is highway but still..

Chicago (especially) and the adjoining suburbs are just abusive. The city really beats on suspension. I mean, this kind of stuff below is NORMAL here. At least they finally milled the "speed bumps" on Lake Shore Drive - strips where the asphalt had spiked upwards because of frost upheaval pushing the pipes upward so at the 40mph speed limit your vehicle would literally leave the ground for a split second and would feel like a boxer punching you in the steering wheel over and over.

First photo is the merge lane from LSD to upper Wacker

Note sure where this is (maybe west loop) but it's also typical. It will be "fixed" at some point by overfilling the potholes, but then it's still an uneven bumpy mess for years until they finally mill and repave.