300-400 RPM lower would be better in your case, considering (on paper) 35" requires 4.56.
I can see your point with a taller 5th.
80 SERIES UPGRADE POLL - MANUMATIC?
- Thread starter wardharris
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I can see your point with a taller 5th.
Dirty Koala
SILVER Star
Very interested
- Thread starter
- #23
You have good taste, Morgan.
I think it’s a great idea, and is the reason I started the A750 thread. It is a nice transmission and I think would be a valuable addition to an 80. You get both lower and higher gears, less drivetrain loss and with tiptronic it’s pretty slick. Good luck!
Imagine this with a diesel crate motor too
I know the drivetrain loss discussion has come up many times, and the a343 awd system is near 35%. @scottryana do you recall the estimated loss through the a750 awd driveline?
I had thought very seriously about a GM 6l80 behind the 1FZ-FE but I would soooo much rather the a750.
I had thought very seriously about a GM 6l80 behind the 1FZ-FE but I would soooo much rather the a750.
It is kind of tricky to say if I remember correctly the Toyota White Paper lists it at 13% less than the A343, but the way it is worded "13% less" would make me think that it wouldn't go from 35% drivetrain loss to 22% but rather:
A343 stock 212hp dynos at 135awhp - loss of 77hp so 13% less of that is about 10hp.
SO this is a big WAG I would say the same truck going from A343 to A750 would go from dyno'ing 135AWHP to 145AWHP?
A343 stock 212hp dynos at 135awhp - loss of 77hp so 13% less of that is about 10hp.
SO this is a big WAG I would say the same truck going from A343 to A750 would go from dyno'ing 135AWHP to 145AWHP?
HDJdreams
SILVER Star
I have had 2 04-05 100 series with the 4.7 and 5 speed, while owning my 97 FZJ. I disagree with Dragos80 that the ratio in OD is too wide with the A750. I love it! I feel that the transmission is as much responsible for the 100s performance advantage as the V8.
When Dodge switched from the 5 speed to the 8 speed in their Chargers, it had a far greater effect on V6 performance than V8 performance in 0-60 (8 speed engines were identical to 5 speed engines, just tranny change). The V6 with 8 speed lost a couple of seconds 0-60 (and was as fast as the first late model Chargers with a Hemi and 4 speed) and gained significant mpg. I always felt that The 1FZ would get MORE benefit from A750 than the 4.7 V8 did.
FWIW 98-02 100 series with A343 had a 4.30 axle ratio while 03-07 with A750 had 4.10 axle ratio.
I haven’t regeared for tires yet, so I would hope this kit happens soon so I could plan accordingly. Even if I had, the 1.1 transfer case gears are a great answer to the A750s taller OD if you have already done axles.
My two big issues with the 1FZ was power (@NLXTACY is taking care of that with the turbo) AND lack of newer tranny options with more gears and wider ratio spread. I was seriously looking at a V8 swap to get a 6L80/90 as much as for power. (And shed some weight with an aluminum block). In the end, I realized that a swap is just too many
for me, I need to get my 80 freeway and trail worthy ASAP.
I really appreciate @Dragos80 effort to develop a 5 speed solution. After I get the turbo on, more gears is the top of my wish list be it A650, A750 or 6L80.
When Dodge switched from the 5 speed to the 8 speed in their Chargers, it had a far greater effect on V6 performance than V8 performance in 0-60 (8 speed engines were identical to 5 speed engines, just tranny change). The V6 with 8 speed lost a couple of seconds 0-60 (and was as fast as the first late model Chargers with a Hemi and 4 speed) and gained significant mpg. I always felt that The 1FZ would get MORE benefit from A750 than the 4.7 V8 did.
FWIW 98-02 100 series with A343 had a 4.30 axle ratio while 03-07 with A750 had 4.10 axle ratio.
I haven’t regeared for tires yet, so I would hope this kit happens soon so I could plan accordingly. Even if I had, the 1.1 transfer case gears are a great answer to the A750s taller OD if you have already done axles.
My two big issues with the 1FZ was power (@NLXTACY is taking care of that with the turbo) AND lack of newer tranny options with more gears and wider ratio spread. I was seriously looking at a V8 swap to get a 6L80/90 as much as for power. (And shed some weight with an aluminum block). In the end, I realized that a swap is just too many
for me, I need to get my 80 freeway and trail worthy ASAP.I really appreciate @Dragos80 effort to develop a 5 speed solution. After I get the turbo on, more gears is the top of my wish list be it A650, A750 or 6L80.
HDJdreams
SILVER Star
If by “diesel crate motor” you mean the Cummins R2.8, the answer is it would be a minus. TorFab and Proffitt’s have both put these in TLCs with the 6L90, a wider spread with 4.0 first and 2 ODs, top one .67. There’s also adapters and programming to mate R2.8 with 8 speeds, which purportedly cost about the same as GM 6 speeds.
Axis Industries, just down the road from Cummins, seems to be the 2.8 swap gear front runner.
Axis Industries USA
the multiple cost could be well worth it though. someone in a recent thread said they'd rather put money into their 80 than the alternative which is buying a late model truck that seems so much more disposable than the 80 series cruiser. and I am kindof thinking the same way. I wouldn't put money into it if I weren't going to keep it, and I wouldn't expect the resale value to reflect the amount spent on (for eg.) a cummins repower motor and a manual/ auto 5 speed box.
cost could be well worth it though. someone in a recent thread said they'd rather put money into their 80 than the alternative which is buying a late model truck that seems so much more disposable than the 80 series cruiser. and I am kindof thinking the same way. I wouldn't put money into it if I weren't going to keep it, and I wouldn't expect the resale value to reflect the amount spent on (for eg.) a cummins repower motor and a manual/ auto 5 speed box.
sorry I'm not quite following you where you've said it would be a minus. A modern motor and trans in an 80 would be great, diesel or a v8
nukegoat
Should have bought a Jeep
A750f would rock
HDJdreams
SILVER Star
I was just saying that as far as I know, there’s no adapter to mate the R2.8 Cummins to the A343 or A750. In the context of this thread, spending $4000 for a kit to put the A750 in an 80, then having to develop an adapter for the R2.8 to the A750 didn’t make sense when the aftermarket is focused on matching and tuning it with GM 6 speeds. So much so it could be considered the closest thing to the “factory transmission” for the R2.8. On paper, GM 6 speeds are a better match for the R2.8’s powerband than A750. That is why I called it a minus, more cost and less performance.
The first road tests on putting the R2.8 in a Jeep is that you have to give it lots of Overdrive for low highway rpms or it will barely get better mpg than LS. (Magazine tested 3 TJs with R2.8 stock Jeep 5 speed manual, stock 4.0 5 speed manual, and an LS swap auto?, in convoy over same route at same time. The comment was the R2.8 barely did any better mpg wise than the LS, and that it needed taller gears to realize a mpg benefit)
I am absolutely in favor of having a 5 speed automatic available for the 1FZ! But if I was swapping engines, I would go with a 6 or 8 speed.
The first road tests on putting the R2.8 in a Jeep is that you have to give it lots of Overdrive for low highway rpms or it will barely get better mpg than LS. (Magazine tested 3 TJs with R2.8 stock Jeep 5 speed manual, stock 4.0 5 speed manual, and an LS swap auto?, in convoy over same route at same time. The comment was the R2.8 barely did any better mpg wise than the LS, and that it needed taller gears to realize a mpg benefit)
I am absolutely in favor of having a 5 speed automatic available for the 1FZ! But if I was swapping engines, I would go with a 6 or 8 speed.
I have had 2 04-05 100 series with the 4.7 and 5 speed, while owning my 97 FZJ. I disagree with Dragos80 that the ratio in OD is too wide with the A750. I love it! I feel that the transmission is as much responsible for the 100s performance advantage as the V8.
When Dodge switched from the 5 speed to the 8 speed in their Chargers, it had a far greater effect on V6 performance than V8 performance in 0-60 (8 speed engines were identical to 5 speed engines, just tranny change). The V6 with 8 speed lost a couple of seconds 0-60 (and was as fast as the first late model Chargers with a Hemi and 4 speed) and gained significant mpg. I always felt that The 1FZ would get MORE benefit from A750 than the 4.7 V8 did.
FWIW 98-02 100 series with A343 had a 4.30 axle ratio while 03-07 with A750 had 4.10 axle ratio.
I haven’t regeared for tires yet, so I would hope this kit happens soon so I could plan accordingly. Even if I had, the 1.1 transfer case gears are a great answer to the A750s taller OD if you have already done axles.
My two big issues with the 1FZ was power (@NLXTACY is taking care of that with the turbo) AND lack of newer tranny options with more gears and wider ratio spread. I was seriously looking at a V8 swap to get a 6L80/90 as much as for power. (And shed some weight with an aluminum block). In the end, I realized that a swap is just too many
I really appreciate @Dragos80 effort to develop a 5 speed solution. After I get the turbo on, more gears is the top of my wish list be it A650, A750 or 6L80.
We are talking about different engines and different transmissions here.
4.7 V8 with A750 vs 4.5 I6 with A750
One was designed to work together with that particular transmission the 4.5 was not.
With larger tires and a taller 5th the 4.5 would be under rev'd and fuel economy would not improve at all, maybe even slightly worse.
If you add 1.1 gear in HI on your transfer case, where would the price go? $6000++
Is any of this worth it at that price point?
How about an actual manual tranny swap? That would be sweet. I like this idea though. Breathe more life into the 80. Stick a turbo or SC on it and it would be nice.
As we had talked about in another thread about a standalone ecu, it always is a hassle because the tranny was controlled by the ecu. If this would help it be compatible with running a haltech for the motor, and maybe even have that control the tranny, that would be sweet. Because having a way to run standalone and keep these old girls mainly toyota and still running would be nice.
As we had talked about in another thread about a standalone ecu, it always is a hassle because the tranny was controlled by the ecu. If this would help it be compatible with running a haltech for the motor, and maybe even have that control the tranny, that would be sweet. Because having a way to run standalone and keep these old girls mainly toyota and still running would be nice.
- Thread starter
- #36
The gate shifter is easy, cheap, fits, etc. The later Tiptronic system is what we are positing - requires more effort, expense, doesn't fit out of the box - agreed all around. But the Tiptronic, manumatic, whatever you want to call it...... works better, provides better control vs. gate shifter.
The WAT package and approach has been used successfully for years in Australia - using the A750F or AB60F with manual shift control. The A750F came with gate style shift early in its life and Tiptronic style in later versions. The AB60F was designed that way.
Many/most of the 5 speed thread posts do not speak to the Tiptronic upgrade. The HGM transmission controller, Prodo/GX shifter and HD Nomad Valve Body Kit (based upon manual shift A750F) are all part of the WAT package and represent a significant portion of the cost and benefit of the manual-shift nature of this approach.
Comparing the auto-shift, gate style A750F vs. manual shift, Tiptronic A750F is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are fine, but offer different functionality, features, benefits, etc.
HDJdreams
SILVER Star
Actually the first four years of the 4.7, 98-02, came with the same A343 as 95-97 4.5 1FZ. When they changed to A750, hp and torque were the same, so if the 4.7 2UZ was “designed” for anything, it was A343.
When the 80 was designed, the speed limits were 65 mph, now I live miles from a 80 mph freeway. I am putting a turbo on my 80, putting it on par or above 4.7 in power and torque. Is it then designed to work with the A750?
What were the A650 and A750 “designed” for?
The A750 was used in TLCs that had more power and torque, more weight and a higher tow rating than my 80. And unlike the A343, the A750 was used with turbo diesel TLCs in other markets, where they dealt with more torque and were rated to handle higher towing, 3.5 metric tons or 7700 lbs. The A650, though it may be tough, as far as I know, never left the Toyota factory speced for a large heavy SUV or truck like the A750.
I understand your logic on the overdrive spacing. My experience with 285s tells me the 1FZ will purr along all day happily with a bit more overdrive, it just needs a bit deeper step when it downshifts and definitely a step between A343s 2-3.
I am THRILLED at the work you are doing to make a 5 speed work in an 80.
This thread is about whether I would be interested in putting A750 in my 80 for $4k (plus tranny). The answer is absolutely, provided that’s a complete bolt in solution like the Wits End turbo. I have experience with A750 from 100, and have wanted one in my 80 since the first time I drove the 100.
If you get the A650 worked out
and this product doesn’t look like it’s getting traction, I will very gratefully follow in your footsteps.
HDJdreams
SILVER Star
@wardharris Would the transmission still be able to operate as an automatic, or strictly manual shifts?
- Thread starter
- #39
Yessir. "D" is full auto, functions normally. Snick the shifter over and you get to choose. I have an A760F in my Lexus GX 460 and love it. No-brainer operation 99% of the time, but if I want to select a lower gear or hold a gear to higher revs, I GET TO PICK, not the transmission.
Suggest anyone with questions on this go drive a used GX 460, LC 200, etc. with a six speed.
HDJdreams
SILVER Star
For the $4k poll, I was expecting that minus the transmission, it would include everything else “bolt-on/plug and play”, that I could install the shifter without too much butchery and the finished product will look good and more importantly keep the 1FZ computer happy with no CEL.
If you can offer a kit that uses the normal valve body and shifter at the ~$2k price point, you would likely have 5x-10x the take rate. I absolutely want more gears with a wider spread in my 80, the manu shift feature I not so particular about.
Offer both to spread out your costs, Stage 1 gets the A750 in the 80, Stage 2 gets the upgraded shifter.
